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Old 2009-03-06, 20:09   Link #1
Ryuou
進む道は武士道のみ
 
 
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Learning Japanese (上級)

First off, I would like to make it very clear that this thread's goal is not to create an elite thread on Japanese to separate the members of this forum by their proficiency level. The goal of this thread is to create an avenue to have the most difficult of Japanese language questions answered. I have 3 very reasonable reasons for starting this thread.

1. Discussions and explanations on higher level Japanese language questions can be lengthy and drawn out, thus clogging up the other Japanese threads and potentially smothering simpler questions.
2. Some members might refrain from posting their questions in the current threads as they might believe that they won't receive an answer due to the difficulty of the question, or that it would be inappropriate to post a question of that difficulty in the other threads.
3. Having a thread for advanced Japanese might attract the highly proficient members who might otherwise ignore the other Japanese language threads for a seeming lack of need for their help.

I think these reasons (and some more might come up later) are sufficient enough to warrant this thread. Just because this thread is for advanced Japanese, in no way does this mean that those who are just starting out with the language or those with just an interest in the language should refrain from following this thread. I would; however, appreciate it if no one posts questions that should go in the other Japanese language thread, or the translation thread. Thank you.

Now onto the first topic. This is being brought over from the Japanese translation thread and deals with the use of as a negative verb tense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryuou View Post
わから () is an old (time period) negative tense for verbs. It's not really used often in modern speech, except for maybe the older generation. You mostly only encounter it with stories with people set in oldern Japan, a character with a strange speaking style, or just someone who intentionally uses it to flair up their speaking style for whatever reason.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doraneko View Post
Just a little bit more on the usage of わからぬ.

Although ~ぬ is mainly found in ancient text, it is still not too rare nowadays. In particular, it can be used from casual writings to highly formal speeches. Google it to have a better idea. But ~ない is always the safer option if you don't know if your usage fits into one of the currently accepted ways.

Grammatically (modern usage), unlike わからない, which can be used as both 修飾語 (descriptor?) and 動詞 (verb), わからぬ can only be used as 修飾語.

eg

O 2ちゃん用語なんて毛頭わからない。
X 2ちゃん用語なんて毛頭わからぬ。

O 真偽さえもわからないままに、取引してしまった。
O 真偽さえもわからぬままに、取引してしまった。


Back to the given line...

O 自分はやはり人の心のわからぬお化けだ。
O 自分はやはり人の心のわからないお化けだ。
X 自分はやはり人の心がわからぬ。
O 自分はやはり人の心がわからない。
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doraneko View Post
I am basically talking about the usage of ~ぬ in modern days. From a certain point of view it is still a kind of negative verb even though it has to be stuck within a 連体修飾語. But I need some serious research to elaborate further.

Nagi deliberately speaks a kind of informal ancharic Japanese that is quite detached from both the modern and ancient world .

I really have little idea on formal ancient Japanese, but apart from showing a negative meaning, AFAIK ~ぬ was also used for a variety of purposes. In particular, when used at the end of a line, it is most likely used as ~た/~してしまった.

eg. 京には見えぬ鳥なれば
O 京では見かけない鳥なので
X 京では見かけてしまった鳥なので


eg. 都近くなりぬ
O 都が近くなった
X 都が近くならない
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Old 2009-03-07, 09:41   Link #2
Doraneko
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Great to see a thread for in-depth discussions on Japanese language. Hope that there is enough interest to sustain it.

Since Ryuou has mentioned Nagi from Kannagi in the previous speech, I am wondering if there is a specific name for her speech pattern.

AFAIK Horo from Spice and Wolf specifically uses 花魁言葉 in her speech. Nagi's speech pattern although feels quite similar (old-fasion casual), somehow the two look technically different in a few ways.

Or maybe Nagi is simply using an alternate form of 花魁言葉?

Grateful if anyone can shed some light on this.

ナギ(@ ep1):
わらわも取り敢えずは、そちの傍におれば安全のようじゃからの。よろしく頼むぞ。

現代語:
私も取り敢えずは、あなたの側にいれば安全のようだから。よろしく頼むよ。

勝手に花魁言葉へ変換:
わっちも取り敢えずは、ぬしの側にいれば安全のようでありんすからの。よろしく頼むよ。
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Old 2009-03-07, 12:26   Link #3
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Ryuou
うぐ~ むつかしいにっぽんごをわからない(c). 中級教科書を勉強し始めたばかりなんだが。
それでも、このスレッドを作ってありがとう。いい考えだった。実に面白そうだ。
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Old 2009-03-07, 19:53   Link #4
Ryuou
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Glad to see some support for this thread.

Quote:
スレッド
やっとこれの意味が分かった。辞書に載ってなくて、何でsledのことが話に出るのかと思ってた。ハハハ、 いや~バカか俺。

And I also just figured out what AFAIK stands for. (I'm behind when it comes to these short hand terms)

Yeah the first thing I noticed about Nagi's speech was how it sounded similar to Horo's. Not exactly alike, but close enough to notice. Maybe they're related somehow (the dialect). Unless someone specifically knows, in order to figure out Nagi's dialect I guess we'd have to look for consistent comparisons and differences between the two. I don't remember Nagi using some form of んす to end her verbs. Or くりゃれ (I'm not exactly sure if that's how she said it, I'd have to check my novels. But it's something like that). As these affect a lot of the conjugations for verbs maybe they're more different than similar. But they do sound really similar though, so I don't know.

So Horo's dialect comes from 女郎? That's what my dictionary says. That kind of makes me dislike the dialect.

Last edited by Ryuou; 2009-03-08 at 19:39.
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Old 2009-03-07, 20:39   Link #5
Vexx
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Most excellent, thanks Ryuou. I may not have much to contribute but I'll certainly lurk and ask the occasional question. I believe I'm going to attempt the JLPT 3 next winter so into the muck I go.

My recollection is that Horo used an Edo period dialect of courtesans (oiran kotoba: flirty, sexy). Nagi's dress and eyebrows were Heian but I never paid close attention to her dialect so I can't comment on any archaic speech she might have used.

Last edited by Vexx; 2009-03-09 at 23:04.
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Old 2009-03-07, 21:06   Link #6
Ryuou
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You're quite welcome Vexx. But there's no real need to thank me as this thread helps me out as much as anyone else.

Yeah they're definitely both oldern dialects. Bringing up Heian is interesting. Maybe we can compare it to how people were speaking in Mononoke as I believe that was set during the Heian period. But I think some of them were speaking in exaggerated dialects so I don't know how reliable of a comparison it would be. Or better yet, Otogizoushi.

And good luck to you on your JLPT studies. In due time I’ll have to start back up on mine as well.
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Old 2009-03-08, 09:56   Link #7
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Something interesting that quite rare is the way that Nana and Lulu speak in Shugo Chara!! Doki!... Nana especially has a thick Nagoyan accent.

Osaka-ben and Kansai-ben are not uncommon in anime, but Nagoya-ben is something I've never heard before Shugo Chara.

It's actually quite strange sounding, very distinct. Everything ends with a "ya" or an "dagya" or a "gane!"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagoya_dialect

Anyway, pretty much the only Nagoya-ben that's ever heard in real life outside of Nagoya is someone proclaiming "Umya!!" after eating some delicious ramen. (It's Nagoya-ben of "Umai!").
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Old 2009-03-09, 22:16   Link #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quarkboy View Post
Something interesting that quite rare is the way that Nana and Lulu speak in Shugo Chara!! Doki!... Nana especially has a thick Nagoyan accent.

Osaka-ben and Kansai-ben are not uncommon in anime, but Nagoya-ben is something I've never heard before Shugo Chara.

It's actually quite strange sounding, very distinct. Everything ends with a "ya" or an "dagya" or a "gane!"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagoya_dialect

Anyway, pretty much the only Nagoya-ben that's ever heard in real life outside of Nagoya is someone proclaiming "Umya!!" after eating some delicious ramen. (It's Nagoya-ben of "Umai!").
The Count in Japanese version of "The Funky Phantom (ドボチョン一家)" speaks Nagoya dialect.
There's also an anime called Yattokame Tanteidan (やっとかめ探偵団), about elderly ladies that solve everyday mysteries in Nagoya downtown.
Because it takes place in Nagoya, and the entire cast consists of elderly people, pretty much all the dialogs are in Nagoya dialect.
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Old 2009-03-11, 23:56   Link #9
Ryuou
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Continuing on with the Nagoya-ben bit, is there an easy way to discern between the different ben from that area? It all sounds too similar to me for the most part. Osaka-ben, Kyoto-ben, Nagoya-ben, Kobe-ben...I know there's an overlying ben to the area though.

Quote:
"Umya!!"
For some reason I was immediately thinking of "Maiuuu". Big cookie for anybody who recognizes this.

General question: does anybody know of good resources to refer to when they have upper-level Japanese grammar (ish) questions? Like a good website or reference book? The next time I head over to the bookstore at Mitsuwa I'm going to try and look for one. All I have is a dictionary and then some textbooks for 初級 and 中級, so I kind of get really stuck on harder stuff. Something navigate-able would be nice.

As it's not generating much discussion I guess we'll put the and Horo/Nagi dialect bit on hold until I (or someone) get some nice comparisons for us to look at. For now I'd like to transition over to a couple questions I have. As I read novels, I take note of all the parts that I can't look up and thus don't understand. As I can't find really anything on them, I don't actually know what level of difficulty they are, but as I have no idea I'll just assumingly put them here. I'll do a few at a time. These are from Ookami to Koushinryou by the way.

1) お暇(ひま)を告()げた

2) すうす思っている

(Spelling it out is probably unnecessary right?) If the part is underlined, then that's the part I don't understand. If there's no underline than it's the whole phrase. If you need the context around it just ask and I'll write out the whole sentence. Thanks guys/girls. I look forward to seeing what we can expect from this thread.
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Old 2009-03-12, 00:12   Link #10
Quarkboy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryuou View Post
Continuing on with the Nagoya-ben bit, is there an easy way to discern between the different ben from that area? It all sounds too similar to me for the most part. Osaka-ben, Kyoto-ben, Nagoya-ben, Kobe-ben...I know there's an overlying ben to the area though.

General question: does anybody know of good resources to refer to when they have upper-level Japanese grammar (ish) questions? Like a good website or reference book? The next time I head over to the bookstore at Mitsuwa I'm going to try and look for one. All I have is a dictionary and then some textbooks for 初級 and 中級, so I kind of get really stuck on harder stuff. Something navigate-able would be nice.
Nagoya-ben is quite distinguishable once you get used to hearing it. Listen for "dagya" instead of "da" or "desu" 'toru" instead of "teiru" and "-gane" being added to just about anything .

Good advanced grammar references are hard to find. There are very few that are fully in english (there are plenty in Japanese for Japanese, of course, but those are not that helpful).

The most thorough reference is a series of 3 books
A Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar
A Dictionary of Intermediate Japanese Grammar
and the most recently published
A Dictionary of Advanced Japanese Grammar

These books are very thorough in what they contain but because there is some overlap over the three books things can be hard to find. Lots of example sentences, though, which is good.

However, if you really want the holy grail of grammar references there is only one book.
http://www.amazon.com/Reference-Gram...6834648&sr=8-1

This book is old, it is in romaji and romanized in the old style instead of modern hepburn.
BUT... It is organized brilliantly and is the most complete book on Japanese grammar ever written. It contains everything. ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING. And don't be fooled by it being 1298 pages: The font size is TINY.
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Old 2009-03-12, 01:18   Link #11
Ryuou
進む道は武士道のみ
 
 
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Quote:
Nagoya-ben is quite distinguishable once you get used to hearing it. Listen for "dagya" instead of "da" or "desu" 'toru" instead of "teiru" and "-gane" being added to just about anything .
I'll try and train my ears to be able to pick this up from now on. But the "toru" instead of "teiru" is kind of common isn't it? I hear it a lot from many different dialects.

Quote:
Good advanced grammar references are hard to find. There are very few that are fully in english (there are plenty in Japanese for Japanese, of course, but those are not that helpful).
Sorry, I should have clarified but I was actually talking about it being in Japanese. It would actually probably be easier as long as the explanations themselves don't use advanced Japanese and hard kanji. Reading it in English can get confusing sometimes and Romaji annoys me. Besides, it's better to learn a language in that language. It helps the process.

That holy grail one seems interesting though. But the Romaji...
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Old 2009-03-12, 08:36   Link #12
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Ryuou
Quote:
For some reason I was immediately thinking of "Maiuuu". Big cookie for anybody who recognizes this.
Ah, I figured. It’s umai, only backwards.
まいう~ = 美味すぎ

Quote:
Sorry, I should have clarified but I was actually talking about it being in Japanese.
Ah. I’ve been thinking to get such a book myself. Actually the local book stores here in Moscow have close to absolutely nothing at all on Japanese. I can only get books in Japanese from Amazon.jp. So far I only managed to get 例解 慣用句辞典―言いたい内容から逆引きできる. It’s a dictionary idioms.

Though actually I know what kind of grammar book you’re talking about. I have such a book for French and it’s called “Grammaire du francais contemporain” (i.e. Modern French Grammar book).

On through the topics.
Quote:
1) お暇(ひま)を告(つ)げた

2) すうす思っている
I just googled it.
お暇を告げる(おいとまをつげる) means ''to bid farewell''. Something like in ’そろそろおいとましなくては'

すうす
is more tricky. I don’t know what it is. I only found a reference to a sweets shop -
http://gourmet.yahoo.co.jp/0007509249/

I need the context for 'suusu'. Maybe it's a variation of 酢. I have no idea, honestly.
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Last edited by nikorai; 2009-03-12 at 09:12. Reason: more typing
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Old 2009-03-12, 14:45   Link #13
Rembr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nikorai View Post
Ryuou

すうす
is more tricky. I dont know what it is. I only found a reference to a sweets shop -
http://gourmet.yahoo.co.jp/0007509249/

I need the context for 'suusu'. Maybe it's a variation of 酢. I have no idea, honestly.
I would guess that an 'u' is missing from the beginning, usu-usu omotteiru, which would make sense.

More context would nail it down some more, of course.
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Old 2009-03-12, 15:28   Link #14
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Rembr
Quote:
usu-usu omotteiru, which would make sense.
Oh, that's interesting. It's that I have serious problems with set expressions.
I should mark somewhere that it means 'to have a vague idea/half expect'.
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Old 2009-03-12, 16:23   Link #15
Ryuou
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Quote:
Ah, I figured. Its umai, only backwards.
まいう~ = 美味すぎ
True. But just figuring out where the word comes from is not what I'm looking for exactly.

Quote:
I just googled it.
お暇を告げる(おいとまをつげる) means ''to bid farewell''. Something like in そろそろおいとましなくては'
Haha, I don't know what I was doing. It was spelled out in hiragana in the novel, and then I wrote it down as kanji after I looked it up. Then I forget how to read it, haha. Okay, thanks nikorai. That makes sense. My dictionary had this, 暇申し, which would fall along the same lines, but it didn't have anything with 告げる connected. I should've recognized the connection though. So I rep'd you as a thank you, but I accidently hit enter before writing my name. So the weird one you notice is from me.

For the second one I'm pretty sure that's all that was there, but let me check......haha, guess I was wrong. There was a behind it which I thought was もう instead of the going with the before it to make とも, and the going with すうす. Hmm...guess this thread may become more for catching my mistakes than anything else. But mystery solved nonetheless. So on to うすうす's definition. My dictionary says this:
ほのかに。かすかに。
ぼんやりとではあるが分るさま。
So "vaguely aware" like nikorai mentioned.

I'll be back with more when I have some more time.
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Old 2009-03-12, 19:26   Link #16
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Quote:
My dictionary says
Oh, you must have a good defining dictionary there.

Quote:
Hmm...guess this thread may become more for catching my mistakes than anything else. B
Yeah, I had an impression that it was sort of an IQ test with tasks of increasing difficulty.
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Old 2009-03-13, 09:16   Link #17
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Originally Posted by nikorai View Post
Oh, you must have a good defining dictionary there.
He sure does (広辞苑)

Thanks for that grammar book link, Quarkboy. Also, 日本語文型辞典 is pretty thorough as far as Japanese-only books go.

Last edited by yononaka; 2009-03-13 at 19:15. Reason: mixed up sentences
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Old 2009-03-13, 18:03   Link #18
miya
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryuou View Post
2) すうす思っている
I think that it is not "すうす" but うすうす.
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Old 2009-03-14, 23:04   Link #19
Ryuou
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nikorai View Post
Oh, you must have a good defining dictionary there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by yononaka View Post
He sure does (広辞苑)
Yeah I have the 6th version which I think is the latest one. But then I also have a computer dictionary application that has most of that dictionary in it. So unfortunately I don't use my hard copy very often which makes the money I spent on it sad. But they aren't exactly the same, fortunatley, so I sometimes check the hard copy if I can't find or don't like what I find in the computer one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nikorai View Post
Yeah, I had an impression that it was sort of an IQ test with tasks of increasing difficulty.
Don't worry, this isn't some sort of test.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yononaka View Post
Thanks for that grammar book link, Quarkboy. Also, 日本語文型辞典 is pretty thorough as far as Japanese-only books go.
Yes, something like that is what I'm looking for. Next time I'm at the bookstore I'll look for that and some others. It's kind of expensive though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by miya View Post
I think that it is not "すうす" but うすうす.
We actually already figured that out, but thanks anyway.
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Old 2009-03-14, 23:47   Link #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Most excellent, thanks Ryuou. I may not have much to contribute but I'll certainly lurk and ask the occasional question. I believe I'm going to attempt the JLPT 3 next winter so into the muck I go.
Yeah, I'll be taking that test again... failed by one question (BOOO!!!) Not bad for only 1.3 years of studying Japanese, I guess.

You're all probably familiar, but I'll give a shout-out for smart.fm. Good place to practice vocab as well as pronunciation.
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