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Old 2010-04-05, 18:30   Link #3221
germanturkey
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"even then, you can't steal him from me." then the look on Aoba's face. it means so much more now that we understand what that look is.
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Old 2010-04-05, 19:21   Link #3222
The Rumblefish
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pellissier View Post
Probably because it was just episode 2, the first where we started to really know Aoba, I've always been quite unsure on how to decipher that scene. Because the first time I saw it I was more for thinking: she hates it so much and yet she doesn't care to undress in front of him? I mean, the scene is inside a context where she first hits him in the face then screams all of her hate for him. Consider that at point of time our knownledge of their past relationship was close to zero. Even now, I'd say I can easily read that scene in the anime just because I know the final outcome.
Maybe it was more efficient towards the manga readers because we got a full volume to get used to their relationship, but my first understanding of the scene was the same as it is now. It was meant to show two things :
1) Although Aoba despises Kō, they have a unique relationship/chemistry if only for the years they have spent together as kids and their connection to Wakaba. Indeed, he is almost a surrogate brother(-in-law). They have probably spent a lot of time in underwear together in the past.
2) Aoba is not yet self-conscious about her sexuality at that point in the story; we see her change her attitude when Mizuki comes back.

(This scene is also why I think Aoba had no conscious romantic interest yet for Kō when she was warned by her sister not to steal him away. I think Wakaba suspected her sister would eventually fall for his qualities in the future, rather than seeing her as an immediate rival. Aoba still honestly thinks she "hates" Kō during the undressing scene.)

I am pretty sure establishing these two points was the goal of the scene. However, note that it is possible Kō was in fact weirded out by Aoba undressing but did not say anything about it because he feared she would be angered by his remarks. In the "Momiji is sick" chapter, when he wakes up before her, we have a first glimpse at how he treats their relationship: I actually like her and I know she does not despise me as much as she claims, but I should play along that pretense.

Later in the story, even though there is some obvious progress in the honesty of their relationship, Aoba does not hesitate to give Kō a very thorough massage (and in the manga, he makes naughty comments/jokes about it). This might be of course because she has the convenient excuse of her "one of the boys" baseball persona, but it still shows they are both very comfortable about their physical intimacy at an age were most boys and girls ain't.

The element we are not aware of at the time is how well Aoba knew about Kō's suffering. We are only told much later in the story that Aoba caught Kō crying in front of the graveyard (flashback sequence when they pray for Akane) and caught him crying when he was furiously pitching at the wall (flashback sequence near the end of the final match). By the way, I urge anime viewers to check that last scene in the manga. It is much longer and more impactful (+ it came after a long publishing hiatus).

Something I am really curious about is Ichi's comment at the end of the final game.

Ichi has obviously understood everything about Aoba and Kō way before they did it themselves. She oftens hints to both kids how oblivious they are about their feelings towards each other (ex. when she yells at Kō for mocking Aoba's culinary efforts, when she mentions repeatedly how similar they are, when she hints to Aoba that she has replaced Wakaba in some ways, etc.).

So when she says "only Wakaba and Kō can make Wakaba cry", I wonder what she means exactly. Is Ichi so confident in her understanding of their relationship that she guesses Aoba cried about her seemingly impossible relationship with Kō? Did she ever surprise Aoba crying romantically because of Kō? Is she only talking about romantic distraught or does she also count childhood memories during which Kō made Aoba cry because of some kid prank?

There are many ways one can understand that line.
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Old 2010-04-06, 08:47   Link #3223
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To be honest, this is how I interpreted the story to be like:

Everybody, including the reader/viewer, can see how much Aoba and Kou are alike, and how much they need each other. Everybody except for Aoba and Kou, and while they may honestly need each other, they don't realize it themselves until near the end. They slowly realize it themselves, and they aren't playing any silly "I'm going to act like I don't like him for now" games. You'd think little kids do that all the time, but the truth is that they aren't putting up an act because they WANT to be deceiving, they just put up an act because they don't really know any better.
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Old 2010-04-06, 09:34   Link #3224
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Quote:
Originally Posted by babohtea View Post
To be honest, this is how I interpreted the story to be like:

Everybody, including the reader/viewer, can see how much Aoba and Kou are alike, and how much they need each other. Everybody except for Aoba and Kou, and while they may honestly need each other, they don't realize it themselves until near the end. They slowly realize it themselves, and they aren't playing any silly "I'm going to act like I don't like him for now" games. You'd think little kids do that all the time, but the truth is that they aren't putting up an act because they WANT to be deceiving, they just put up an act because they don't really know any better.
See the notion that aoba and kou don't really need each other is kinda or slowly eroded by hints given by the author, like kou starts training aoba leaves a water bottle at the bottom of the stairs for him, or when kou searches for aoba out side of camp, there is just many of these small hints that make you think more than anything they know, but the visage of wakaba and the acceptance that she is truly gone, and that it's ok to accept the feelings they have is more of what I get from the two.
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Old 2010-04-06, 10:51   Link #3225
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nosauz View Post
See the notion that aoba and kou don't really need each other is kinda or slowly eroded by hints given by the author, like kou starts training aoba leaves a water bottle at the bottom of the stairs for him, or when kou searches for aoba out side of camp, there is just many of these small hints that make you think more than anything they know, but the visage of wakaba and the acceptance that she is truly gone, and that it's ok to accept the feelings they have is more of what I get from the two.
So, you agree with me that they probably didn't realize they liked each other in the beginning?
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Old 2010-04-06, 10:53   Link #3226
Nosauz
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Originally Posted by babohtea View Post
So, you agree with me that they probably didn't realize they liked each other in the beginning?
no i contend they knew, kou's adoration for aoba's pitching form, aoba and wakaba chat about type of guy aoba likes, etc.
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Old 2010-04-06, 12:03   Link #3227
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Originally Posted by Nosauz View Post
no i contend they knew, kou's adoration for aoba's pitching form, aoba and wakaba chat about type of guy aoba likes, etc.
Oh okay I was confused. It could go either way, really.
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Old 2010-04-06, 17:31   Link #3228
physics223
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It goes two ways: first, Aoba may have already liked him even when Wakaba was still alive, but held out her emotions because of Wakaba: being told that 'he's mine' from the person you love the most does that to you. So she may have been affecting some semblance of utter dislike in respect of her sister's wishes, especially because she's dead.

There's also the simpler notion that her loved evolved from their being together and yet not really knowing any better. These aren't precocious teenagers, and their lives are just made more complicated being linked together by a person they both loved a whole lot. I think the respect was already there in the first place - it only evolved to love later, especially on Aoba's part, when people told her that Ko and her seemed so much alike and after she truly saw how good of a person he was, beyond the myopic facade of the past memories of Wakaba.

It's notable that Aoba was the one who really made the first move in confessing to Ko. She was the one who cleared up her emotions and technically opened herself up to the reality that she really liked Ko all along. As early as the fifth episode her presentation of 'hatred' for Ko slowly peeled off seeing how caring he was to her little sister. It just took a long time due to the spectre of Wakaba's presence (or absence) pervading both of them.

I think she felt that it was all right to stay friends and bide her time with Ko, but with Akane appearing it was an entirely different ballgame: Akane also loved Ko, and seemed so alike to Wakaba in kindness and beauty. While Adachi was never really strong with art, this is the time when Aoba's emptiness comes to the fore - one notes that there's a lot of focus with her eyes during this part, because Akane forces Aoba by the fact that she's around to realize that her feelings for Ko are more than a mere 'friendly dislike.' Her bluff has already been called, and it doesn't help that in addition to being one of the best overall baseball players, Ko is also an extremely nice guy.

I'd expand, but that's basically my interpretation. Despite all its simplicity the show is beautiful.
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Old 2010-04-06, 17:43   Link #3229
Guardian Enzo
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My take is pretty simple - Kou is lying to others, Aoba is lying to herself.
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Old 2010-04-06, 17:51   Link #3230
BetoJR
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
My take is pretty simple - Kou is lying to others, Aoba is lying to herself.
That's actually how I always pictured it. Kudos for putting it into words, Enzo!
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Old 2010-04-06, 18:32   Link #3231
physics223
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Isn't that too simplistic? But hey -
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Old 2010-04-06, 18:54   Link #3232
Guardian Enzo
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Slightly OT here, but... I'm halfway through V. 1 of Touch. I already like Tatsuya better.
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Old 2010-04-06, 19:25   Link #3233
Theowne
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
Slightly OT here, but... I'm halfway through V. 1 of Touch. I already like Tatsuya better.
That was fast. A short while ago Kou was the greatest thing since sliced bread

As I said earlier, I still prefer Touch by a margin, despite Cross Game's superiority in other areas. In fact I remember you replying that you "couldn't imagine liking any characters more than Cross Game"'s.
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Old 2010-04-06, 19:27   Link #3234
Guardian Enzo
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Originally Posted by Theowne View Post
That was fast. A short while ago Kou was the greatest thing since sliced bread

Though it's one of the reasons that I still prefer Touch by a margin, despite Cross Game's superiority in other areas.
No, no - Tatsu better than Katsu, not Kou! He's nowhere near Kou's Godly status yet, don't worry. It actually wasn't me that made the comment about "couldn't imagine liking any characters more than Cross Game", BTW - not that it's that far-out! I can certainly imagine it, since I still rank the ones in Seirei no Moribito as my all-time favorites in anime. Still, Cross Game is right up there with anyone else.

Touch is an interesting property. We have several different versions, both anime and live-action - not to mention the 150000 chapter (or whatever) manga. Which ones are worth checking out?
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Old 2010-04-06, 19:39   Link #3235
Theowne
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I, personally, prefer the anime, but I suspect this is a minority opinion and only for some really small reasons. The live actions are just a novelty, IMO. Should probably take further discussion to the Touch thread. Some activity in there would be nice, anyways.

Quote:
It actually wasn't me that made the comment about "couldn't imagine liking any characters more than Cross Game", BTW
Am I going crazy or...
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Old 2010-04-06, 19:53   Link #3236
Guardian Enzo
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"Hard to imagine" is different than "couldn't imagine"...
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Old 2010-04-06, 20:14   Link #3237
BetoJR
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Originally Posted by physics223 View Post
Isn't that too simplistic? But hey -
I think that was the point.

As for Touch, I first started with the live-action movie - which was, actually, surprisingly good - then went to the manga. I still have not managed to finish the anime, myself.
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Old 2010-04-07, 02:21   Link #3238
iamthewalrus
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tatsu and kou are very similar, it would be hard to have a preference between the two

anyways just watched finale, I'm happy with it but I've realized that theres no adachi series running at the moment. I need my adachi fill!!!
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Old 2010-04-07, 03:00   Link #3239
Theowne
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Kou and Tatsuya are indeed similar (as I would assume most of Adachi's characters are). It seems to me that the difference is the audience's relation to them. In Touch Tatsuya was basically the narrator of the story, and this is made very clear. In Cross Game though, we seem to be a little more detached from Kou and his mind, he is a character in the story in the same way that Aoba is - someone we observe from the outside and interpret.
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Old 2010-04-07, 04:35   Link #3240
The Rumblefish
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I completely disagree about Tacchan and Kō being similar (in appearance, sure, but that goes for any Adachi main character). However, it is difficult to explain why in detail without spoiling the plot of Touch - and that would be a shame, since it is full of surprises. But I think they have very different personalities. Furthermore, the challenges they face in love and life are not the same. In fact, I prefer Kō as a person but find Tatsuya more interesting of a character, if that makes any sense.

BetoJR, you'll get to appreciate Katsuya as well, I am sure.

Quote:
Touch is an interesting property. We have several different versions, both anime and live-action - not to mention the 150000 chapter (or whatever) manga. Which ones are worth checking out?
I think the manga is by far the best version. It is Adachi's most popular and influencial manga for a good reason. I still feel that the anime messed up the ending, although it tries to communicate the same message and follows the same plot more or less. Don't spoil yourself with the movie before going through the story once; it's not worth it. Just a novelty, as Theowne says.
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