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Old 2009-05-16, 23:45   Link #341
Guardian Enzo
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How do I love thee, "Cross Game"? Let me count the ways. In an era of pretentious or intentionally vapid or schoolgirl moe series at every turn, this one is completely unpretentious and honest and knows exactly what it wants to be. The art and BGM suit the material perfectly - bright, upbeat and to the point. There's no tricks here - just straightforward storytelling about interesting characters that only makes you realize after the fact that you've just seen something meaningful.
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Old 2009-05-17, 00:46   Link #342
monir
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I take you've seen episode 7...?

Episode 7 was pretty eventful comparatively. It adds a new dimension to Aoba's personality. Koh's likability factor is also in bloom in the episode. It also features all the kuzos this show will come to deal with over the course of this storytelling. I'm certain some of them will turn to the "good" side. I haven't yet figured out how the root of this fiasco, the vice Principal, will be dealt with. Perhaps, the principal will come back from his sick leave. Bite your tongue if you are a manga reader.

Koh's reaction to the comment uttered by that stupid kid sitting on the chair, ordering jokers to bring her drinks, was fantastic. How Koh handle the situation also goes beyond the silly sexism a lot of Japanese animated series like to make inadvertently or intentionally. It was Aoba's choice to throw so many pitches even if she realized what was going on. She wanted to continue, so don't butt in. And later, as Aoba would indicate, the best form of inspiration comes from self-example set for others. She did all that hard work and it didn't go unnoticed.

Have to love this show. Even the dramatic stuff that were bordering melo-dorama to evoke those emotions I don't like to feel in general had good follow-up moments. The best of personalities know how not to give into those moments of strong emotion, and look to find a way to work around it to make such producers of those emotion work for them. The left handed batter has a system that works out for him to deal with such producers of emotion. I can actually understand why he is so indifferent at how this coach is going about it. The best way he can protect himself from the likes of such individual is to put up a shell. At the same time, it's also possible to bring him out of his shell as seen when Akaishi points out that Aoba is the better "man" between the two. He hits a homerun to the next pitch instead of the strategy, "let's see how long you can keep up pitching those nasty ones while I keep fouling them back."

The core of the team that will go to the Koshien is pretty much set. The only thing missing is the coach that can inspire. How will the old man earn his spot? Once again, the biggest obstacle is the vice principal.

I know I'll stay tune to find out. Some screen from episode 7:

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Old 2009-05-17, 01:56   Link #343
Guardian Enzo
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No, in fact I've only seen the subbed eps - through 6. But already I'm getting the sense that Koh is GAR.
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Old 2009-05-17, 03:01   Link #344
MeoTwister5
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I must find episode 7 subs posthaste.
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Old 2009-05-17, 03:07   Link #345
monir
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You should be able to find the RAW at the usual places. I know fans will love this episode, especially those anime-only fans of Cross Game.
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Old 2009-05-17, 04:53   Link #346
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From what I've read/seen, I don't know why manga readers wouldn't love this episode, either...
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Old 2009-05-17, 08:01   Link #347
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Awwww

I love you! Aoba-chan!! >3<
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Old 2009-05-17, 22:40   Link #348
Malintex_Terek
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I really like the anime but I get the feeling some things are being skipped. Either that, or there's some cultural nuance that isn't obvious to a Western viewer.

So, why is it that the "new" Coach was able to conscript Aoba to practice pitch for the high school team? The middle school team isn't his jurisdiction, he can't threaten her with getting kicked off the team or anything like that. Did she agree to it for some reason? That wasn't entirely clear from my POV.
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Old 2009-05-17, 23:58   Link #349
leongsh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malintex_Terek View Post
I really like the anime but I get the feeling some things are being skipped. Either that, or there's some cultural nuance that isn't obvious to a Western viewer.

So, why is it that the "new" Coach was able to conscript Aoba to practice pitch for the high school team? The middle school team isn't his jurisdiction, he can't threaten her with getting kicked off the team or anything like that.
Namely two reasons:

(1) The middle school is a feeder school to the high school. With Daimon being the head coach of the baseball team of the high school, he is usually deemed as higher in seniority and thus, a higher status compared to the baseball coach at the feeder middle school.

(2) His reputation precedes him as a successful high school baseball coach. Daimon is a baseball coach that has won the Koshien title before and all high school baseball coaches who have done that gain a lot of prestige and influence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Malintex_Terek View Post
Did she agree to it for some reason? That wasn't entirely clear from my POV.
Aoba did it for her own reasons which she revealed towards the end of the episode. She wanted to gain info on the first team batters. Why? To help her senpai, Akaishi, to deal with them.
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Old 2009-05-18, 00:01   Link #350
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i'll add one more reason...


Behind Daimon is Principal ups, Acting Principal Shido...
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Old 2009-05-18, 00:02   Link #351
monir
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Didn't even realize there is a sub out for episode 7.
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Old 2009-05-18, 08:37   Link #352
DragoonKain3
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As for this episode, I certainly like how Adachi portrays Aoba as not some sort of damsel in distress needing to be rescued. Instead, she's portrayed as an initiative taker, knowingly putting herself in 'danger' just to figure out the weaknesses of the enemy's batting line up.

Next episode... the first real baseball game! Looking forward to it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Westlo
Aoba's nothing like Madoka period. Aoba's not putting up a front (she genuinely disliked Kou from the start) or being nice to Kou when they are by themselves or not trying to get involved because of Hikaru (or her case Wakaba's memory).
As someone who've read the manga, I beg to differ as she exhibits all of the above after a certain character is introduced.

But whether she does or not is really besides the point. The only thing that matters is that, like Madoka, she starts being completely tsun and gradually transitions to become completely dere over a long period of time. ie. 'classical tsundere' behaviour

-------------
Quote:
Originally Posted by musouka
It leads to generalizations about how her purpose in the series isn't to have her own storyline, but to eventually "become dere towards Kou".
I'm confused and befuddled. Just because I labeled her a 'classic tsundere' does not mean she can't have her own storyline.

All the term 'classic tsundere' does would be how it describes her relationship with Kou, in that she starts very tsun towards him but is steadily progressing towards dere. Nothing more, and nothing less.

Quote:
It makes her personality and storyline all about Kou and how she reacts to him, instead of about her trying to work through something very painful.
You're seriously thinking too much on the connotations of being labeled as a tsundere. Just because a lot (if not the majority) of tsunderes has their stories entirely revolving around their romantic relationship around the main protagonist, does not mean that being labeled a tsundere automatically means that.

I mean, Fakir from Princess Tutu is an example of this. He MOST certainly is a 'classic tsundere' in terms of his relationship with Ahiru. But does that mean that his entire story revolves around his romantic relationship with Ahiru? If you've actually seen the show, this paritcular aspect of his character is only a fraction of his story.

Quote:
No one pretends that Kou's only major role in the series is connected to eventually falling in love with Aoba, so the fact that people can't see why it's borderline insulting to define the other main character that way sort of makes me wonder.
Since when was being labeled a tsundere means that that character's only purpose in the story is to be the love interest? More on this in the next paragraph...

Quote:
You can describe some aspects of her behavior as tsundere in nature, but the label is still incorrect because she doesn't fit the tsundere qualification of having her behavior revolve around her romantic feelings for the guy.
That's YOUR qualification of a 'tsundere'. And quite frankly, I think you're in the minority in this regard. Because going by what people consider as 'tsundere' over in the moe contest threads, these people include Haruhi Suzumiya, Kagami Hiiragi, and Suiseiseki, naming three popular characters who the majority of posters there classify as a tsundere one way or another. And none of the above exhibit having their behaviour revolving around their romantic feelings for a guy (or girl in some cases lol).

Quote:
Aoba is genuinely conflicted about Kou, in more than just a romantic sense. She's conflicted about a lot of things, like baseball and moving on from the death of her sister.
That still doesn't mean Aoba can't be considered as a classical tsundere. Who says that it has to be mutually exclusive? The definition of classical tsundere certainly does not.

Quote:
In this case, "tsundere" flattens her. It ignores the other aspects of her personality in favor of defining her by her relationship with Kou.
Only says you. As I said before, being labeled a tsundere does not mean all of her other aspects are ignored. It does not define her relationship with Kou... all it does is that it defines how she changes her behaviour towards Kou over a long period of time. Nothing more, nothing less.

-------------------
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheesie
The tsundere label is strictly a fandom definition in the first place, a label created by the fans to describe a particular set of stereotypes, just as the fans are responsible for evolving the meaning to its current nature. With that said, when fans apply this label to characters like Louise, Shana, Taiga and many others, they are doing so because there's a certain pattern they recognize. These are pretty much 'people with conceited, spiky, combative personalities that suddenly becomes modest and loving when triggered by some sort of cause' (originally I wouldn't touch Wiki, but ironically, there is no better reference to use right now). When the fans reach a consensus with this description in mind, this is how the standards of this label are made clear.
That is true of these characters. That said...

Quote:
When you use the 'tsundere' fan-label with Aoba, it strongly implies that she belongs to this group of girls, who are constantly used as shining examples of the label. (Ones who pretty much define the term.) I agree with the people who said the label was misused.
Aoba does not clearly fit in with the mold. As such, I have always used the term 'classic tsundere' to differentiate Aoba from these typical tsunderes, of which in the moe threads here coin as 'neo-tsunderes'.

Quote:
No matter what tsundere types there are, what all of them seem to have in common is the demand of focus on their so-called tsundere personalities as the deciding factor that largely defines their relationships, and in turn, places considerably less emphasis on the circumstances around them - when it's actually the opposite for Aoba.
Now I think this is where the crux of the matter is. People who are adamant that Aoba NOT be labeled as a tsundere just don't understand how vastly different the typical and the 'classical' tsundere really are. While some can be considered under both (Taiga from Toradora comes to mind), the two are completely different. It's the reason why Shiraishi in Lucky Channel eps 10 was going ballistic at how the original definition of 'tsundere' is nothing like what people use tsundere nowadays.

I mean, compare the likes of Kugimiya loli-tsundere trinity (aka. Louise, Shana, and Nagi) with likes of Riku Harada of DNAngel, Sheryl Nome of Macross Frontier, and Li Syaoran of Card Captor Sakura. They are like night and day as there's very little the groups have in common. Even comparing the three classical tsunderes mentioned above with each other, there is very little (if any) similiraties between the three apart from starting as tsun towards one person and changes slowly overtime to be completely dere to the same person.

Quote:
Her personality had never dictated her and Kou's relationship; the situation does.
It's the same thing can be said with Madoka of Kimagure Orange Road, Nanaka of Myself Yourself, Hiromi of True Tears, and other characters who fall under the classical tsundere definition. In the case of the three above, these people aren't normally tsun towards that person... in fact, they're really dere towards this character and only were tsun because of certain circumstances revolving around their situation.

And in these cases, it's Madoka's relationship with her best friend, Nanaka's issues with abandonement, and Hiromi's issues of committing a social taboo which are the cornerstone of what fuels their tsun behaviour towards a particular character.



tl;dr

There are varying definitions of the typical tsundere or the 'neo-tsundere', but for the purposes of this arguement, it's moot, since Aoba is clearly not one.

The original defiinition of tsundere, or the 'classical tsundere' for short, however, is much more clear. This is because the term 'classical' refers to what Shiraishi of Lucky Channel eps 10 said was the original definition of the tsundere. The only requirements that were mentioned are...

-Starts out to be tsun but in the end changes towards dere
-This has to be done over a long period of time

Nothing more, nothing less. It does not have the definition that being a 'tsundere' must be the main character trait. It does not state that the reasons for being tsun (or being dere) towards that character must be solely because of romantic roots. Being a classical tsundere need not fulfill any other requirements apart from those two... pretty simple no?

If anything, being labeled as a 'classical tsundere' is a good thing, since the act of changing from tsun to dere IS character development. Granted, not all character development are made equal, but being guaranteed one is always a good thing.

In any case, Aoba clearly falls under this category. So what if we can label her as a 'classical tsundere'? It does not demean her character in anyway, since all it does is describe the slow change of her behaviour around a certain character. One can classify even great literary characters such as Anne Shirley of LM Montgomery's 'Anne of Green Gables' series or Mr Darcy of Jane Austin's 'Pride and Prejudice' as being a classical tsundere, but it does not change that it's only one aspect of this character. And categorizing them under this definition (or any other definition for the matter) does not make them any less great.
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Old 2009-05-18, 10:22   Link #353
Kaoru Chujo
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1. Ep7 was a great anime episode. Totally classic. My stomach was churning and my fists clenching. And the final sequence on the train and in the street was wonderfully intense and fairly subtle.

2. Manga readers should stop talking about what's in the manga. I have no desire to be spoiled and some of you keep doing it. I understand the temptation, but please stop. A hint of what happens is just as bad as a full statement.

3. That being said, I agree with DragoonKain's take on tsundere rather than musouka's or cheesie's. It doesn't have to be the whole story. In this case, we may find out it isn't any part of the story. But right now it looks like it. And seeing Aoba from that point of view is interesting, too. She and Kou each have their own stories (although his is being put at the center of the plot, it seems to me), but the story of their relationship -- whatever it turns out to be -- is also near the center of the tale.
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Old 2009-05-18, 10:26   Link #354
BetoJR
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo View Post
2. Manga readers should stop talking about what's in the manga. I have no desire to be spoiled and some of you keep doing it. I understand the temptation, but please stop. A hint of what happens is just as bad as a full statement.
I hope you're not referring to me, as my statement was not really a spoiler at all, honestly.
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Old 2009-05-18, 10:38   Link #355
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I definitely loved that little reveal at the end about why Aoba was pitching for the HS team (even at the expense of her own strength). It was a nice twist because we feel sorry for Aoba and wonder what would possess her to be taken advantage like that because she is a smart girl. But in the end she proves just how smart of a girl she is. That coach might think she is just something to be used but in the end she is going to gain something as well.

Of course it's a nice that Aoba knows she was being taken advantage of but I don't think anyone wants to see her sacrifice her own strength like that. It's still a dangerous game she is playing. And it does make me feel worse that Aoba cannot play on the HS team since she is a girl.
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Old 2009-05-18, 11:13   Link #356
Kaoru Chujo
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Originally Posted by BetoJR View Post
I hope you're not referring to me, as my statement was not really a spoiler at all, honestly.
I wrote my post before you had posted, so I wasn't referring to you. But I still think yours a bit of a spoiler, to be honest. Anything that brings in knowledge from future eps of the manga is a spoiler. Yours wasn't that bad, but still undesirable. However, I should have just told the mod and not made this a topic of discussion. Like our tsundere argument, it just gets in the way of real discussion.

I agree with your "semantics" comment. I only participated because I was so delighted with how realistically and intensely tsuntsun she was. Whether she gets to dere, time will tell. Her attitude toward Kou is not entirely negative, anyway.
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Old 2009-05-18, 11:33   Link #357
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Aoba owning herself a bunch of baseball noobs: Excellent.

Kou annoying the hell out of the snooty ball-wench: Excellent.

Aoba+Kou in the train and everything after: Priceless.

I'm still expecting Koh to own himself a bunch pricks, especially Mr. Golden Boy. Someone at least confirm to me that I will not be disappointed?
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Old 2009-05-18, 11:47   Link #358
Guardian Enzo
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I think one of the things that drives Aoba crazy about Koh is his staid WTF attitude. He walks the line between confidence and cocky without crossing over. How does he get his stimulation? He relaxes on the berm by the river getting free pantsu service. He doesn't feel the need to share his baseball skills with anyone - he just wants to do his thing and silently put people in their place. No matter what Aoba - a naturally vocal person who acts cocky to overcompensate for her lack of self-confidence - does, she can't really get a reaction from him.
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Old 2009-05-18, 12:34   Link #359
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Quote:
■ 最新ニュース / 2009年5月18日(月)
現在放送中のTVアニメ「クロスゲーム」のDVD第1巻の予約受付がAmazonで開始された。DVD第1 巻には第1話から3話までを収録。DVDは全13巻でリリース予定で、2巻目以降は4話ずつ収 録される。
No any news is found in the official site and this is quoted from Otasuke. Total 51 episodes are expected
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Old 2009-05-18, 13:25   Link #360
golthin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoonKain3 View Post
The original defiinition of tsundere, or the 'classical tsundere' for short, however, is much more clear. This is because the term 'classical' refers to what Shiraishi of Lucky Channel eps 10 said was the original definition of the tsundere. The only requirements that were mentioned are...

-Starts out to be tsun but in the end changes towards dere
-This has to be done over a long period of time

Nothing more, nothing less. It does not have the definition that being a 'tsundere' must be the main character trait. It does not state that the reasons for being tsun (or being dere) towards that character must be solely because of romantic roots. Being a classical tsundere need not fulfill any other requirements apart from those two... pretty simple no?

If anything, being labeled as a 'classical tsundere' is a good thing, since the act of changing from tsun to dere IS character development. Granted, not all character development are made equal, but being guaranteed one is always a good thing.

In any case, Aoba clearly falls under this category. So what if we can label her as a 'classical tsundere'? It does not demean her character in anyway, since all it does is describe the slow change of her behaviour around a certain character. One can classify even great literary characters such as Anne Shirley of LM Montgomery's 'Anne of Green Gables' series or Mr Darcy of Jane Austin's 'Pride and Prejudice' as being a classical tsundere, but it does not change that it's only one aspect of this character. And categorizing them under this definition (or any other definition for the matter) does not make them any less great.
this is another little argument about "LEBELING". Lets not get on it again, Lets just agree that Aoba now has to hate Koh because of her situation. At 7 episodes, we already have seen her change a little her attitude toward him just because he did something that she approves of.
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