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Old 2009-09-10, 12:33   Link #981
Heibi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Proto View Post
I say we put all manga readers to the fire.
I don't actually read the manga, so I don't get the spoilers before I work on/watch the show. That way I can't spoil it for anyone else. My fact check actually came from my friend who read a certain group's statement on their post to Toshokan saying "Filler ep". Upon seeing that she said only the Midori part was. And then she showed me the manga.
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Old 2009-09-10, 13:02   Link #982
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Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
Burn Baby, burn.
No, thanks. I'd like some napolitan over here, young lady, if you please... no, not you... the other one. Domo.
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Old 2009-09-10, 13:07   Link #983
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Originally Posted by Heibi View Post
Upon seeing that she said only the Midori part was. And then she showed me the manga.
Thinking about it, makes perfect sense because while Midori has been just in a few selected episodes, Risa was there since the beginning and episode 18 happened to be the end of her story, which at that point they managed to intertwine with Aoba's different yet similar situation.

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Originally Posted by BetoJR View Post
No, thanks. I'd like some napolitan over here, young lady, if you please... no, not you... the other one. Domo.
But that young lady has become quite good now. If you're Kou, that is
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Old 2009-09-10, 13:10   Link #984
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Originally Posted by Pellissier View Post
But that young lady has become quite good now. If you're Kou, that is
Since I'm not, I'd better play it safe, then...
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Old 2009-09-10, 17:19   Link #985
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Originally Posted by Willen View Post
While I agree that Aoba's desire to win drove most of her decisions in the game, I disagree in her motivations to not play high school girl's baseball. It's not that she outclasses most girls in skill or ability so she doesn't see it as challenging because as these episodes show, that's not the case. It's that she's chasing a couple of dreams.

I've thought about Aoba's possible motivations for her decisions and what her possible dreams of the future are. And I've come to the conclusion that playing with the boys gets her closer to fulfilling Wakaba's dream and what I suspect is her own dream at the same time. And I, like many others, now suspect that Aoba's dream is to play in Koshien. But I still believe that Aoba wants to play baseball in actual games, regardless whether it's in practice matches against boys, or girls. Or why accept the offer to sit on Satomi's bench?

And on teamwork vs. Aoba's desire to win, Aoba should have already had a good idea of the other team's batter's strengths and weaknesses, but I don't think at any time did she shake off catcher Matsuyama's signs. After Aoba gave up that homerun to Ouka's 4th batter (probably unavoidable at the time) and allowed their 5th to get on base, it's Matsuyama that calls time. To me, Aoba looks reluctant to call the signs -- she even starts by saying, "Sorry," -- and she's looking down at the rosin bag in her hands. But her desire to win kinda shows in her face as she looks up.

There's another moment that I think back up my theory -- she bunts at her at-bat in the sixth. She should be good enough of a batter that she can get on base the usual way, maybe even get a home run. Of course, it's probably to mess with the pitcher and have her make mistakes. One doesn't usually bunt and then steal second unless you are counting on your team to get you home. Aoba's a true team player, too.

Oh, and here's an interesting article I stumbled upon: Girls join baseball clubs despite Koshien ban August 1, 2008 The Yomiuri Shimbun
It's not that the reason she won't play women's baseball is she outclasses them. It is more like because she out class the women's national level, the importance of her playing in a women's team is less then that of helping Kou to reach Koshien. She loves baseball and she loves challenge to be the best that she can be. Will top women players be a challenge to her? Yes, to a certain degree. But the far bigger challenge for her is to get Kou to Koshien - which in itself is a testament to her own abilities. She cannot be on the mount but her best student will be there to shine in her stead. Kou pretty much learned everything about pitching from Aoba and Aoba at this point is not only helping Kou because of Wakaba's dream but also for herself to prove that she is capable of pitching at Koshien through the instrument of Koh on the mount.
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Old 2009-09-10, 18:19   Link #986
golthin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SagaraSouske View Post
It's not that the reason she won't play women's baseball is she outclasses them. It is more like because she out class the women's national level, the importance of her playing in a women's team is less then that of helping Kou to reach Koshien. She loves baseball and she loves challenge to be the best that she can be. Will top women players be a challenge to her? Yes, to a certain degree. But the far bigger challenge for her is to get Kou to Koshien - which in itself is a testament to her own abilities. She cannot be on the mount but her best student will be there to shine in her stead. Kou pretty much learned everything about pitching from Aoba and Aoba at this point is not only helping Kou because of Wakaba's dream but also for herself to prove that she is capable of pitching at Koshien through the instrument of Koh on the mount.
regardless of the reason that this episode gives Aoba for not joining the women's national team, this episode actually moves the plot and doesn't deviate from the original plot. IT gives us a reason for Aoba to stay where Kou is. I think both reasons are right, neither is wrong.
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Old 2009-09-10, 22:38   Link #987
Willen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SagaraSouske View Post
It's not that the reason she won't play women's baseball is she outclasses them. It is more like because she out class the women's national level, the importance of her playing in a women's team is less then that of helping Kou to reach Koshien. She loves baseball and she loves challenge to be the best that she can be. Will top women players be a challenge to her? Yes, to a certain degree. But the far bigger challenge for her is to get Kou to Koshien - which in itself is a testament to her own abilities. She cannot be on the mount but her best student will be there to shine in her stead. Kou pretty much learned everything about pitching from Aoba and Aoba at this point is not only helping Kou because of Wakaba's dream but also for herself to prove that she is capable of pitching at Koshien through the instrument of Koh on the mount.
I want to clarify my posts in that I don't believe now that Aoba is looking for a challenge. It's pretty obvious when you look at her reactions to Midori (sore arm excuse). And how she reacts to the Ouka/national team coach's comments. She has one goal in mind: making Wakaba's dream come true.
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Old 2009-09-11, 13:39   Link #988
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Originally Posted by Willen View Post
I never thought that the episodes were showing that Aoba is far above other girls in baseball and women's baseball "offering no worthy challenge" to her.
I can't yet fully discuss all the points you raise, but in the episode, if Aoba wasn't at least an exceptional female player, how would you account for the facts that:

1. the college team coach, who is also the national team coach, made it a point to ask who Aoba was after the throw from center to home;

2. the best slugger on the college team, who (if I recall) is also the clean up hitter of the national team, acknowledges that Aoba is really good and that not being able to hit her throws is nothing to be embarrassed about;

3. by the end of the game, the college/national team coach knew that Aoba was on the Seishu team.

That last item was an attempt by the anime people at Adachi-style subtlety. They did not show us that the college/national team coach was doing a background check. But he very clearly knew more about Aoba by the end of the game than he did when it began. Take note that he too was surprised when the high school team switched pitchers mid-game, indicating that he did not even know Aoba played the pitcher position.

And we were not talking about Aoba's batting. Up to this point, her batting has not been an important detail to the story.
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Old 2009-09-11, 14:00   Link #989
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Originally Posted by joeboygo View Post
I can't yet fully discuss all the points you raise, but in the episode, if Aoba wasn't at least an exceptional female player, how would you account for the facts that:

1. the college team coach, who is also the national team coach, made it a point to ask who Aoba was after the throw from center to home;

2. the best slugger on the college team, who (if I recall) is also the clean up hitter of the national team, acknowledges that Aoba is really good and that not being able to hit her throws is nothing to be embarrassed about;

3. by the end of the game, the college/national team coach knew that Aoba was on the Seishu team.

That last item was an attempt by the anime people at Adachi-style subtlety. They did not show us that the college/national team coach was doing a background check. But he very clearly knew more about Aoba by the end of the game than he did when it began. Take note that he too was surprised when the high school team switched pitchers mid-game, indicating that he did not even know Aoba played the pitcher position exceptional at the least not to demean the girls she played with.And we were not talking about Aoba's batting. Up to this point, her batting has not been an important detail to the story.
I still found it funny that people just want to point out that the episode only showed us that the onlly reason Aoba stay at Seishu is because of her friends and to see Wakaba's dream come through. I acknowledge that it is one of the reasons, but she also had a taste of what female baseball is like.

I see it this way, she had two choices, stay at Seishu and help kou or join the women national team and shine probably become the best woman baseball player in Japan or maybe even the world. Which one was more important to her is obvious, but it also showed that it is more important to her to play with the boys than the girls.
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Old 2009-09-11, 14:06   Link #990
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I'd doubt the anime producers intention was to go as far as to demerit the value of girl baseball as to say that a girl will be leagues better because she was sexist and trained with the boys.
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Old 2009-09-11, 14:15   Link #991
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Adachi's works do tend to be fairly sexist, at times. Some would say "realistic", tho...
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Old 2009-09-11, 14:16   Link #992
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We are not talking about Adachi though, but about the anime production team which is in charge of the spoilers Given that this is a TV broadcast, one would assume that they are under heavier scrutiny here.
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Old 2009-09-11, 14:19   Link #993
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Really? How about the other works of his (as well as others with a similar theme, if we have to narrow it down) already adapted, with girls simply wanting to be team managers or housewives or supportive of the main male characters or whatever other stereotypes you might recall? Are those any less sexist? And, if so, does it even matter, in terms of the enjoyment of the shows?

I, honestly, don't think so.
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Old 2009-09-11, 14:22   Link #994
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Again, as much as I may or may not agree with you (mostly not since most of those works date from back in the 80's, his more recent works, Katsu, Cross Game feature the women in much more prominent positions, and even count as a social critique against sexism), but in any case Adachi was not the one who decided to animate a game against a female team, hence why I don't think the point is relevant either way in this case.
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Old 2009-09-11, 14:27   Link #995
golthin
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Originally Posted by BetoJR View Post
Really? How about the other works of his (as well as others with a similar theme, if we have to narrow it down) already adapted, with girls simply wanting to be team managers or housewives or supportive of the main male characters or whatever other stereotypes you might recall? Are those any less sexist? And, if so, does it even matter, in terms of the enjoyment of the shows?

I, honestly, don't think so.
Yeah, sexism at the max from Adachi and we love it. One of the most controversial endings was in a manga

Spoiler for ending specifc for THAT manga:

Last edited by monir; 2009-09-11 at 17:51.
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Old 2009-09-11, 14:32   Link #996
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And that was one of the shows I was referring to as an old show. i think it is a little unfair to judge his works without taking into account the time and space context. (Japan was a little late to enter the feminism movement.)
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Old 2009-09-11, 17:06   Link #997
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Hmmm... the "show" golthin mentioned cannot really be considered an old one, since
Spoiler for spoiler for series in question:


As for the anime team's decision to animate the game, really, it's not all that contrary to the manga, as Aoba does state - at least once - that she has no interest in women's baseball (and that's not really a spoiler, for those that are worried).
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Last edited by BetoJR; 2009-09-11 at 17:19.
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Old 2009-09-11, 17:07   Link #998
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Well in that case I am thinking on a different one which used the same pattern. In which case you have now spoiled the ending since I had not seen it, thank you very much. Can you edit the dates out, so that other people are not spoiled please?


As for your second assessment, what it can be certainly interpreted in the way you intend it to be, it can be in a variety of other ways as well; the simplest of which is because she has played all her life in boys leagues, and he has no interest of trying new things, as simple as that.
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Old 2009-09-11, 17:19   Link #999
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Proto View Post
Can you edit the dates out, so that other people are not spoiled please?
Too late....

P.S. I'd have to see where Cross Game goes before I judge whether it's actually "sexist" or not. That being said I think the early Adachi stories (Touch) reflected their time with regards to gender roles and I don't find them particularly sexist taken context.
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Old 2009-09-11, 17:20   Link #1000
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Well in that case I am thinking on a different one which used the same pattern. In which case you have now spoiled the ending since I had not seen it, thank you very much. Can you edit the dates out, so that other people are not spoiled please?
Well, it was golthin that spoiled the ending, not me. He should tag his comments, as well.

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Originally Posted by Theowne View Post
Too late....
Like I stated above, I merely expanded on the comment - not once did I talk about the ending, simply to the date of "exhibition".
Neither have I mentioned the name of the series.

Some people see spoilerific comments everywhere, these days. Makes one afraid to respond to anything, really...
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