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View Poll Results: Clannad - Episode 22 Rating
Perfect 10 211 60.81%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 49 14.12%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 23 6.63%
7 out of 10 : Good 20 5.76%
6 out of 10 : Average 19 5.48%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 3 0.86%
4 out of 10 : Poor 3 0.86%
3 out of 10 : Bad 2 0.58%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 3 0.86%
1 out of 10 : Painful 14 4.03%
Voters: 347. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2009-03-13, 11:18   Link #201
Nosauz
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I really don't get how people don't see the Illusory world as being explained. They made it pretty damn clear what it was. I felt like even though whne the girl says papa at the end is meant to draw an emotion of sadness, I still felt like I was being clubbed with the answer. They really didn't pussyfoot around this issue as the game did. I mean my expectations for this show was based on a coma girl whos spirit is corporeal at school where people can see her as one set in a world similar to ours but also has mystical undertones. I really don't see how people are getting blind sided by the Illusory world, I mean it's pretty evident throughout the entire series and then they explain it in a way that makes it quite easy to understand.

One freaking gripe, I don't know why but the live footage with the glow didn't piss me off as much as it has in the past. I usually find it extremely cheesy yet this time it realy didn't grate on me, it was probably the use of the blurring actual after touches to the film. I mean I still found it somewhat out of place, especially with the story revolving around the mysticism, the art style did match pretty well, but if it had been animated it would have connected better.
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Old 2009-03-13, 11:20   Link #202
kamikazex
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WOW. WHAT?!!! A DREAM?!! great past 5 episodes was a dream. wasnt expecting that
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Old 2009-03-13, 11:25   Link #203
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I did get to watch the episode streaming before we got the raws for this ep. I'm really happy with how they wrapped up this series. After everything that we saw happen, I was thinking, "Oh pleeeease give us a happy ending!" I did like how this was approached with a "frozen in time" moment and basically the choice that Tomoya makes at that moment about Nagisa is his.

I figured people would like the epilogues for everyone, especially Kotomi and Mei. Both looking very stylish and cool. But Tomoyo still remains my favorite, with Nagisa a close second.

I was wondering in the first season who the girl was that was walking in the forest (OP sequence Mag Mell), since they blurred it and we couldn't see her very well.

Looks like there's some extra episodes coming up, with the ep 23 pre-story of the series, and I'm going to guess another DVD exclusive episode since there are 8 volumes planned for the release.
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Old 2009-03-13, 11:29   Link #204
PNGO
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kamikazex View Post
WOW. WHAT?!!! A DREAM?!! great past 5 episodes was a dream. wasnt expecting that
Shhh the story actually only has 17 episodes, those last 5 episodes were fillers, or just a dream like you said.
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Old 2009-03-13, 11:38   Link #205
Myssa Rei
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Originally Posted by panzerfan View Post
Myssa_Rei raised a point about the town paying dividend... but the problem is, the debtor itself is inexplicably linked to the effects of change. It shouldn't be shocking to anyone that the development of the town poses environmental prices that are paid, and given the Japanese concept of natural deities, the town in this case, is very much an organic, conscious entity. This brings to the question of how the Japanese view their relationship with their environment and how does the environment affect people in turn. Clannad is not the only piece of work that hints to this underlaying relationship, but it certainly invests heavily in this undertone.
The thing is about the TOWN is the price it seemed to ask is not proportionate to what it gives back in return. In fact, given what we've seen, you get the feeling that the Town not only has a capricious personality, it also has a NASTY sense of humor. In one case it appeared benevolent -- Akio asked for Nagisa to be saved but in the process, her life was tied to the place where Akio went to ask for that miracle; when that changed, Nagisa got ill. In another, we had Tomoya, who essentially was emotionally ground into the dirt (and then some), all because he REPEATEDLY said he HATED the Town.
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Old 2009-03-13, 11:41   Link #206
Game8910
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It was an ok ending, I liked it more in the VN for some reason. I kinda expected too much from this show I guess....7/10 for this episode

Overall I liked this season more...9/10 should do it
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Old 2009-03-13, 11:46   Link #207
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what a huge time-shift-replay and... *throw the logic out of window*
well, the ending is kind of expected one, KyoAni faithfully follow the original story...

lol at Fuuko... "ecchi desu!~" she conquered almost half of this episode...
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Old 2009-03-13, 11:50   Link #208
jdlkem
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A few things.

Having played the novel, I have found this ending to be an outstanding one. The visual novel's ending seemed too abrupt in several ways, whereas this episode really gave justice to many things, by virtue of explanation and by virtue of the medium. I give this episode a 10/10 because of the artistry of this ending (visuals, dialogue, music, timing).

Overall, I thought the series was incredible (so far!). Great artistry from KyoAni, as expected, some great music, although the ED really threw me off a few times, and great character. I could really understand the actions each character took given the situations presented (minus Fuuko lol). I would give this a 9/10, but if we get some purple-colored hair action, that would bring it to a 9.5 or even a 10.

Some artistic and interpretive comments.

I really found it interesting that snow was chosen as the emotional metaphor. Literary interpretations usually suggest that snow represents bleakness, death, hopelessness, etc. Here, it was presented as such. When Nagisa gave birth, it snowed. When Tomoya took his daughter on a walk, it just started snowing and quickly piled up. In each case, a member of his family passes away. Furthermore, it snows in the illusionary world, which causes both the "girl" and the "robot" to die/become destroyed. Snow binds the protagonist in every sense of the literary meaning to this impending fate.

In this episode, however, the lights that have been talked about finally arise from the town and put an end to the blizzard. Light, as a representation of hope and renewal, is used to represent this new beginning for Tomoya, after having suffered such an awful history from the two (three) significant deaths. I find it beautiful how these symbols are used in this anime, a significant reason why I find this show endearing.

Here is my explanation to the relationship between the illusionary world and the real world, and why Tomoya, after his destruction in the illusionary world, arrives at the time of his child's birth. His growing compassion towards the town in which he lives.

Clannad, as almost all of us know, is the word for family. Why would this title be chosen, of all of the many different possible titles that could have been chosen? A good title should indicate what the following substance contains, and yes, it is clearly with the ties within a family. Tomoyo and her brother had conflicts with their parents. Kyou and Ryou had their own issues (which *hopefully* should be dealt with eventually), related to the conflicting interests between them, between family members. Kotomi had to struggle with the sudden loss of her family. Fuuko, even as a supernatural "spirit", had to support her sister, who was too concerned about her younger sister that she prioritized Fuuko over her own personal life. Nagisa has her own health to deal with, which was (partially) caused by and made significant changes to her parents. Our protagonist had (obviously) major issues with his father. Almost all of the characters have major issues tied deeply by the ties between family members. However, in every heroine's route (minus the possible exception of Tomoyo's route), there is a deep change in these ties from interacting with the protagonist, most notably in Nagisa's route. How these changes arise is not due to familial values, but by compassion itself.

Tomoya is first presented as a sarcastic, uncaring, and uncompassionate student. Tomoya’s first line (as a human) is “I hate this town.” He states it affirmatively, unyielding to change that opinion. However, his opinion of the town changes slowly towards the better through his interactions with the people in the anime (or visual novel). When he finally marries Nagisa, he has clearly found happiness; however, when Nagisa becomes sick during her pregnancy, Tomoya begins to revert to his pessimistic views. In the anime, after Nagisa passes away, he states, “We should never have met.” And yet he soon becomes compassionate once again after confessing his “wrongdoings” to his daughter. The connection between him and his daughter is undoubtedly extremely important.

Tomoya’s visits to the illusionary world are prophetic dreams of his future: hints at an impending doom. It is as though someone is testing him through a tough ordeal. And misfortune does fall upon him. Nagisa passes away, and only a few years later, his only child dies in his hands. His only choice is to escape into the illusionary world, where there remains hope, albeit an inkling. However, the one girl dies (Ushio dies again…) to rise again as the consciousness of the illusionary world. In a strange way, this seems to me an allusion to Jesus Christ in that he gives his followers a chance.

John 3:16. “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son [Jesus], that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

It is interesting that the roles are twisted: Ushio becomes the consciousness of the illusionary world and thus is granted its powers (the existence of the lights), and in doing so, she gives Tomoya a second chance. Note that if Tomoya remained his inconsiderate self, Ushio would probably not give herself up to save her father.

The real question that arises is what is the purpose of the episodes 16-21? This is the time from when Nagisa dies to when Ushio dies. It shows both the protagonist as well as us, the viewers, what is ahead for Tomoya, and thus leaves him to choose between regret and acceptance: regret for having met Nagisa and undergoing the accompanying pain, or acceptance of his love for her and the ordeals that follow. This reminds me very much of HanTsuki in that the protagonist has to choose whether it is worth loving her or not to him personally. Thus, this ending is by no means a simple Deus Ex Machina, but a very complicated and a very human one – Tomoya will suffer either way.

By accepting his love for Nagisa even after taking account of the ensuing suffering, Tomoya’s compassion towards Nagisa, and the town, prompts the lights to grant him a miracle. I believe it is a very complex ending by this account, although it is easy to misinterpret as a simple cop-out to revive everyone.

Spoiler for asdf:




EDIT:
Reasons why Fuuko rightfully deserves ~6 min of screen time:
1. To even out appearance times lol
2. Cuz she's awesome.
3. Fuuko, just like Ushio, has been in her own "illusionary world" before, just not necessarily in an "illusionary" place. It just so happens that she was an illusion of sorts in the real world, affecting others. We can easily brush her off as annoying and such, but she really carries an extremely important role of being similar to Ushio. Furthermore, Fuuko seems to understand this similarity as well. The illusionary world version of Ushio flashes by as Fuuko asks for her friendship. There would be no reason for this Ushio to appear otherwise on screen.

Last edited by jdlkem; 2009-03-13 at 12:04.
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Old 2009-03-13, 12:10   Link #209
panzerfan
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Originally Posted by Myssa Rei View Post
The thing is about the TOWN is the price it seemed to ask is not proportionate to what it gives back in return. In fact, given what we've seen, you get the feeling that the Town not only has a capricious personality, it also has a NASTY sense of humor. In one case it appeared benevolent -- Akio asked for Nagisa to be saved but in the process, her life was tied to the place where Akio went to ask for that miracle; when that changed, Nagisa got ill. In another, we had Tomoya, who essentially was emotionally ground into the dirt (and then some), all because he REPEATEDLY said he HATED the Town.
Arguably however, the people also asked disproportional returns on the town. For the sake of convenience, the population overall demolishes forests to claim things such as family restaurant and shopping mall (revenue generator) as well as the hospital. It's with wicked sense of humor that people say that it's for human progress if you look at it from the perspective of land as a deity. It may be benevolent to declare certain area to be park land, but wouldn't that be lip service? Therefore, there's just as many reasons for the town, if it's organic to hate the people, for having sapped its strength to do anything to help those that it wanted to help in the first place such as Nagisa and subsequently Ushio.

Isn't perspective an interesting thing?
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Old 2009-03-13, 12:21   Link #210
Deathkillz
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Originally Posted by Narzia View Post
Started good. The first insert song fit perfectly. The second, while beautiful, was somehow wasted though.. could've been better.

There was barely any emotion.. even though it was a happy ending. All i felt was just "Uh.. that's it?" Not because of the arguable plot, but because of lack of emotion. I wasn't sad.. i wasn't happy... it was just nothing. Except the first part of the episode it was "oh well.." all the way to the ridiculous Fuuko ending.

And why only show the grandmother? I wanted to see Tomoya's dad one last time, smiling and with opened eyes. :/
Oh-ho, someone with exactly the same thoughts as me on this final episode.

Since there was so much buildup and questions being asked about the "other world", I find it disappointing that they simply gave such a brief answer to everyone's problems then "al la hole" magically revives Nagisa so she doesn't end up dying. It was as if all that buildup was lead to nothing as they simply said "here you are" to the whole ordeal...it kinda feels like I was cheated on something that should have been a lot more powerful.

And don't even mention the fuuko bit...what a pointless use of time, I would have preferred if the episode just ended with the second insert song.

Interestingly Tomoya went from hating the town to loving it now...

Well, at least we had short scenes of the other characters before saying goodbye...bye Tomoyo and Kyou
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Old 2009-03-13, 12:34   Link #211
Ithekro
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I would point out for those that believe Ushio is dead at the end after her father's death (implying Fuuko found the body), that Ushio:
A. Is breathing.
B. It is summer, thus she would have been dead for several mouths at this point if she had died in winter.
C. Is wearing her summer school uniform. She and Tomoya were in winter clothing at the end of 21.
D. Fuuko is a weird person who can follow a cute scent and has had her own out of body experiance.
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Old 2009-03-13, 12:41   Link #212
kyomagi
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All i have to say is...

I called it, i told you all in the spoilers thread he was going to wake from a dream like state.

http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...postcount=1487

not spot on but i did call it
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Old 2009-03-13, 12:42   Link #213
escimo
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Spoiler for Clannad ep22 script meeting:


It wasn't quite as disappointing that I expected but came really close...
Felt really forced.

Sucks how they managed to spoil a brilliant show right in the end.
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Old 2009-03-13, 12:50   Link #214
Nosauz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by escimo View Post
Spoiler for Clannad ep22 script meeting:


It wasn't quite as disappointing that I expected but came really close...
Felt really forced.

Sucks how they managed to spoil a brilliant show right in the end.
Really??? You think that was how it was? Sigh... go play the VN then think about what you wrote. Kyoani did nothing to the script, they just x'd some stuff and extended some scenes, all they did was follow what Key had provided them. If you don't know how this shit is made but go spout off like you do. I just find that those who haven't played the VN just don't seem to appreciate what this episode did but hey at least be familiar with what your about to talk about. I mean really it wasn't a damn dream... but then again w/e people will think what they want and I'm done defending the show, take it for what it is, this is not supposed to be realistic and if you continue to view at as such your just gonna ruin an excellecnt show. Really its like saying don quixote is sane when HE CLEARLY IS FUXED IN THE BRAIN. Projecting what you want the show to be and what the show really is does only disservices to the show, but hey whatever.
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Old 2009-03-13, 12:58   Link #215
escimo
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Originally Posted by Nosauz View Post
Really??? You think that was how it was? Sigh... go play the VN then think about what you wrote. Kyoani did nothing to the script, they just x'd some stuff and extended some scenes, all they did was follow what Key had provided them. If you don't know how this shit is made but go spout off like you do. I just find that those who haven't played the VN just don't seem to appreciate what this episode did but hey at least be familiar with what your about to talk about. I mean really it wasn't a damn dream... but then again w/e people will think what they want and I'm done defending the show, take it for what it is, this is not supposed to be realistic and if you continue to view at as such your just gonna ruin an excellecnt show. Really its like saying don quixote is sane when HE CLEARLY IS FUXED IN THE BRAIN. Projecting what you want the show to be and what the show really is does only disservices to the show, but hey whatever.
Whoa, Hold your horses...

Sorry for messing up who screwed up and when...
Doesn't remove the fact that in my opinion they did.
Last time I checked I was entitled to do so.

As for VN, haven't played it and don't thing judging by how things turned out that I will...
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Old 2009-03-13, 13:01   Link #216
Kinny Riddle
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Surreal. Yeah, that's the word to describe this ending.

I'm sure a lot of people would be confused about the revelation, maybe I'll start a new thread just to explain the ending. A very simple explanation would be: Tomoya makes a wish, and his wish is granted.

For now, I'll just be commenting on the other characters in the ending:

Kyou: We've seen plenty of her as Ushio's teacher, so nothing new to add.

Ryou: Finally, in her nurse uniform. Though another significant character related to her has been omitted entirely, which is a pity.

Kotomi: Wandering in the American wild wild west in her sports car. For a while I nearly couldn't recognize her looking this mature, and who would have thought she actually passed a driving test?

Sunohara: Compared to Kotomi-chan, Sunohara's driving is crap. Being a taxi driver doesn't seem to suit him.

Mei: OMG Mei-chan's HOT!

Yukine: The new leader of the united Hikarizaka Gang.

Tomoyo: Probably off training somewhere so she could challenge Yukine's hegemony.


I think it's safe to assume that besides Nagisa's survival, everything else in this "reborn" world goes through its original course, such as Tomoya working under Yoshino, Ushio enrolling in Kyou's kindergarten.

Even Tomoya reconciling with Naoyuki in this altered reality is very possible, otherwise he would not have brought Nagisa and Ushio to meet his grandmother, plus the screen fades from his smile to a reminiscence of him holding hands with Naoyuki seems to hint at this.

Finally, the epilogue between Fuuko and Kouko-san. Kouko-san is finding it hard to challenge Tomoya as the "Fuuko MASTER" as she's simply struggling to find retorts for Fuuko's weird logic, though she's to be commended for being VERY patient with her.

As with the previous world, Fuuko once again befriends Ushio, because she "sensed" Ushio's presence. Probably a residual subconscious memory from the other dimension?

Both scenes of Ushio running on the fields and Fuuko meeting Ushio (who at first seems to appear as the Illusionary Girl) can both be seen in the First OP of the first series.


The ending may seem confusing, but with the Illusionary World scenes, the viewer should have expected that the ending involves the supernatural. And Yukine's explanation in episode 8 should have made it clear about the light orbs granting wishes. Put one and one together and it's not hard to guess that the Illusionary World is absolutely vital in the granting of wishes.


Overall, CLANNAD has been a very enjoyable series to watch. The first series (School Life) was your typical school romance series, but the second series After Story really went where no one had gone before: Exploring the characters AFTER they became couples, and eventually get married, face the hardships of life after school, and even have kids.

Regardless of what you think of the characters or the ending, you have to admit that Clannad (After Story) is successful in conveying that kind of life as realistically as possible.
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Old 2009-03-13, 13:02   Link #217
Divini
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Originally Posted by Nosauz View Post
snip
I will have to agree with this. It almost seems like there's a lot of viewers that fast forwarded (literally and/or figuratively)through any of the scenes of the illusionary world for the past... oh... 44 episodes or so, instead of making an attempt to understand it as part of the series as a whole.

Despite this, this last episode explained nearly every detail of it, and that coupled with the scene where Akio took a dying Nagisa to the forest, all the pieces fit together. To some that say that this invalidated the past 6 episodes, this miracle would have never occured, if those events never took place.

It's kind of tragic really, to have viewers judge the ending when they don't have a complete understanding of it. It really takes a lot out of the enjoyment and fulfillment of the ending....
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Old 2009-03-13, 13:05   Link #218
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Beautiful episode. I was so happy seeing Nagisa again but all that magic turned off when I've seen Kotomi driving a Beetle
Nice one there Kotomi-chan
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Old 2009-03-13, 13:07   Link #219
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Kyoani's pretty anal about sticking to 'script' with Clannad. Yes they missed a few things and embellished a few things but what you saw is from the source material. Don't like it? Play the game or write your own ending in your head. Maybe share it as doujin or fan fiction.

I was a little "wait.. what? huh!?" watching this series but the ending is what it is. (And a chance to see an older Mei-chan? Woohoo!)

So they went through their world of excrement.

Given a chance to restart, knowing what may happen. Would you make similiar choices? I think this is the point of the end. This is one thing that can happen, and *this* is what 'could' happen otherwise.

Kind of helps that the series was magical realism, I would've liked a more 'realistic' sort of end but that is not this series.

Enjoy the journey and don't put all your effort and worries into the destination. Now I'll have to see about getting hunting down a copy of the game itself.

*edit*Whops I forgot that it's usually Key's adaptions that stick so close to 'script'. XD

Last edited by SageGaiGar; 2009-03-13 at 13:12. Reason: Opps
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Old 2009-03-13, 13:08   Link #220
Nosauz
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Originally Posted by escimo View Post
Whoa, Hold your horses...

Sorry for messing up who screwed up and when...
Doesn't remove the fact that in my opinion they did.
Last time I checked I was entitled to do so.

As for VN, haven't played it and don't thing judging by how things turned out that I will...
yea maybe you should avoid key adaptations because I doubt you'll like them, this is the way they are. I just find it frustrating as to how people constantly want realism when the show never stated it was in itself realistic. The show has so much fantasy that you would have to be blind and deaf to not be able to figure this out. But w/e if your expecting an orange and I give you an apple and have stated I only have apples yet you want me to give you an orange which is not physically possible for me to give you an orange you will be dissappointed, thats how I view most of the complaints about it being unrealistic, and for the most part the complaints about the illusory world are pretty shallow, basically stating most people didn't really pay attention to the show. But alas we all can voice our opinions. I'll just say this, when I go to a honda dealership and ask for a toyota prius and don't get it but just get an accord, I'll live with it, because clearly that wasn't the place to get a prius.
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