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View Poll Results: Clannad - Episode 22 Rating
Perfect 10 211 60.81%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 49 14.12%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 23 6.63%
7 out of 10 : Good 20 5.76%
6 out of 10 : Average 19 5.48%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 3 0.86%
4 out of 10 : Poor 3 0.86%
3 out of 10 : Bad 2 0.58%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 3 0.86%
1 out of 10 : Painful 14 4.03%
Voters: 347. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2009-03-12, 20:51   Link #81
Sheba
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Yeah, all these shots of the TOWN and the floating lights. You would have asked yourself if the lights have some weight on the mechanisms of Clannadverse. It's almost like a lost cousin of Nasuverse's Earth.
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Old 2009-03-12, 20:54   Link #82
Ithekro
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I'm not expecting as much "RAGE" from some quarters due to how things happened and what was shown.

I'll still need the eventual subs to find out just what was said during the beginning and ending. The middle was beautiful though.
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Old 2009-03-12, 20:55   Link #83
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Sheba: I was actually joking to a friend about how the TOWN (in CLANNAD) possessed this easily-offended intelligence behind it, a genius loci if you will, and took Tomoya's insult rather personally. It's not the truth, but really, you get the impression on how monumentally screwed up things became before it seemed to say, "Okay, you get it now? Good, here's your miracle."
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Old 2009-03-12, 21:03   Link #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harukamae View Post
Still a bit puzzled on the light orbs and the other world, but perhaps a rewatching and a trip to the Spoilers Thread will help! :-)

All in all though, a fitting ending and a definite tearjerker, though I'm still left wondering over the significance of the "friend" Fuuko finds.
Spoiler for 22:
well to my degree of understanding and my take was...

Spoiler for the girl:
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Old 2009-03-12, 21:10   Link #85
danin8r44
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I do have one question/complaint about this episode that made me rate it 9 instead of 10. Why did they have Fuku take up virtually half of the episode? I agree that it felt like she "ninjad" the ending. I know it was all revolved before she stepped in, but it was just rather hard to jump from OMG it just ended all dramatically to Fuko...

Guess that's just me though...
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Old 2009-03-12, 21:20   Link #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Myssa Rei View Post
danin8r44 and panzerfan: To clue you in, I usually play paladin-types (the diplomatic but can fight type, not the lawful stupid metalhead type) so the T-51b is up my alley... Despite my having a 100 Sneak score, haha.

Back to the episode... I think in the end, some viewers will feel cheated. Really. Especially if they missed all the magical references about how the TOWN, yes, the TOWN was trying to teach the kid who hated it a valuable lesson.

...About NOT insulting the TOWN.

Just kidding.
im not sure which game are you talking about@@" and i do agree that the core of the story is about the town and people

we see that ushio in the illusionary world was giving tomoya a vision of what is to come in his life, but then we go through Clannad and AF till ep 22, we see everything changed into a happy ending after the illusionary world got nuked. theres one important lesson that is conveyed but seems like no one noticed it, in the first episode of Clannad nagisa said "NOTHING WILL STAY UNCHANGED". i think nagisa also meant that even the FUTURE will not stay unchanged, that there is no destined future, that we can change the future ourselves.

this is just something i felt after finishing the episode

overall i love Clannad but AIR is still my favorite from KEY~
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Old 2009-03-12, 21:23   Link #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danin8r44 View Post
I do have one question/complaint about this episode that made me rate it 9 instead of 10. Why did they have Fuku take up virtually half of the episode? I agree that it felt like she "ninjad" the ending. I know it was all revolved before she stepped in, but it was just rather hard to jump from OMG it just ended all dramatically to Fuko...

Guess that's just me though...
It actually happened in the original game too , I think a lot of it had to do with the girl. I agree it was too long the conversation even in the orginal. But it made it connect a bit better to know that last part, since some aspect was changed and related back to the light novel esque short stories.
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Old 2009-03-12, 21:25   Link #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Proto View Post
Oh c'mon, the fact that some of us are liking it doesn't mean that we are all a bunch of gut thinkers



Well, that's not the fault of the ending itself, but of people expecting it to be a climax at all. As you mentioned, the climax of the series was back at 18. To be frank, most people even without being spoiled and just with paying attention to the little details that were spread throughout the series knew where this all was going. As such, the ending was just intended as a logical conclusion, as a reward to the characters and the viewers, to the former for their struggles and their emotional growup, to the later for having been along the characters all this time, but definitely not as a 'BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
(...)
(...)
(...)
aAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
(...)
AAWW kind of episode. I wouldn't call it an anti climax though, since an anti climax, as a literally resource means that a difficult and seemingly difficult to resolve plot (the intended lead up to the climax) was just solved with something trivial, which is not the case. I hope I'm making myself clear.
I'd call it an anti-climax in the sense that it runs almost in direct opposition to the meaning and message of the climax at episode 18. And if this suddenly happy ending was a "reward" to the viewers then does that mean that the ending to Mai-Hime was a reward too? I'm just curious as to how this reward thing is supposed to work outside of the games context. If it's supposed to be some sort of reward as far as the anime is concerned then I'm even less than impressed.

As time goes on this whole defence of the ending is starting to get harder and harder to swallow for me. Then again maybe I'm just so used to people bitching every time a character who was thought to be dead turns up alive in some other anime I've watched (as in people just rushing straight to the boards to complain without anybody bothering to consider that they might never have died in the first place) that when another anime comes along with characters who were undeniably dead but are Deus Ex'ed so that they never died in the first place and nobody so much as blinks or goes "ara?" it just feels like a double standard in the community. A hollow sentiment and a get out of jail free card if you will.

I guess everything really is okay to most people as long as it's KeyAni that does it then, regardless of whether it hurts the overall themes of the story in the long run. No reason to get upset or anything, it's only a "reward" for the fans. Alas, as a person looking for a bit more then a reward I say nay nay.

Sorry, but if every other anime that tries this sort of ending instantly gets put in the hot seat for a little while then I don't see why Clannad should be any different just because KeyAni is so swell and everybody likes their animation and favours to the fans. I know that's become the standard as I acknowledged earlier, but I'd like to see that change and to me the same standards should apply to every anime regardless of how much one might like their production company.

Oh and like Myssa mentioned, just because the ending followed the games reward ending doesn't automatically mean that it's okay. Unless we were to assume that the games reward ending is entirely flawless, which I submit it wasn't. Of course this means any gripes I have rest entirely with Jun Maeda and not Kyoani's staff who were more or less just doing their jobs and trying not to get firebombed by die-hard Maeda fans over in Japan. In their case it's a bit of a catch-22.

Anyway, I feel that's if worth mention that if I were gauging this show solely on it's attempts to illicit emotional reactions from the viewers that it gets a flat out 10/10, but unfortunately I'm not so I have to account for a number of other areas where Clannad falls far short of the mark it set with episode 18.
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Old 2009-03-12, 21:31   Link #89
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Point taken. I'll think it over over the night and reply tomorrow.
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Old 2009-03-12, 21:48   Link #90
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Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama View Post
Oh and like Myssa mentioned, just because the ending followed the games reward ending doesn't automatically mean that it's okay. Unless we were to assume that the games reward ending is entirely flawless, which I submit it wasn't. Of course this means any gripes I have rest entirely with Jun Maeda and not Kyoani's staff who were more or less just doing their jobs and trying not to get firebombed by die-hard Maeda fans over in Japan. In their case it's a bit of a catch-22.
It's really because, had CLANNAD been a grounded-in-realism print novel, the ending as given would have been hard to rationalize, given the build up that preceded it. If one dismissed the magical shenanigans connected to the town, a good writer could have just ended the story with the death of Ushio and Tomoya, or heck, just cut the story off at episode 18. The Emil Zola end, which Sheba detests, would have been depressing, but at least it built on what came before it. Plus, it would be more real.

However, as I stress always, this is JUN MAEDA we're talking about here. His scenarios will NEVER be completely grounded in realism, nor will they follow any expected genre conventions, all in the name of eliciting extreme emotional responses.
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Old 2009-03-12, 21:53   Link #91
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Well that does bring up the question on what the themes were.

Also the difference between a "Oh you aren't dead suddenly" with no method or reasoning behind it plot(hole), or a "you died, I learned a leason, now can you be alive again" story. While no one else blinked at Nagisa, Tomoya most certainly reacted to (and remembered) it from the first time around. It is not like the method was not in play from the start, since we've had the Illusionary World running with the main stroy since day one and the orbs of light and symbolism have been running throughout the storylines.

It is different in a respect from a character that supposedly died in one episode suddenly coming back half a series later with the basic "I got better" or "I was saved from the fall" excuse. This was more the character died at one point in the series and at the end you get to go back and live that part over again where they lived instead from the exact same point. It is a matter of how it is was executed rather than just the event as a plot point.
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Old 2009-03-12, 21:57   Link #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama View Post
I'd call it an anti-climax in the sense that it runs almost in direct opposition to the meaning and message of the climax at episode 18. And if this suddenly happy ending was a "reward" to the viewers then does that mean that the ending to Mai-Hime was a reward too? I'm just curious as to how this reward thing is supposed to work outside of the games context. If it's supposed to be some sort of reward as far as the anime is concerned then I'm even less than impressed.

As time goes on this whole defence of the ending is starting to get harder and harder to swallow for me. Then again maybe I'm just so used to people bitching every time a character who was thought to be dead turns up alive in some other anime I've watched (as in people just rushing straight to the boards to complain without anybody bothering to consider that they might never have died in the first place) that when another anime comes along with characters who were undeniably dead but are Deus Ex'ed so that they never died in the first place and nobody so much as blinks or goes "ara?" it just feels like a double standard in the community. A hollow sentiment and a get out of jail free card if you will.

I guess everything really is okay to most people as long as it's KeyAni that does it then, regardless of whether it hurts the overall themes of the story in the long run. No reason to get upset or anything, it's only a "reward" for the fans. Alas, as a person looking for a bit more then a reward I say nay nay.

Sorry, but if every other anime that tries this sort of ending instantly gets put in the hot seat for a little while then I don't see why Clannad should be any different just because KeyAni is so swell and everybody likes their animation and favours to the fans. I know that's become the standard as I acknowledged earlier, but I'd like to see that change and to me the same standards should apply to every anime regardless of how much one might like their production company.

Oh and like Myssa mentioned, just because the ending followed the games reward ending doesn't automatically mean that it's okay. Unless we were to assume that the games reward ending is entirely flawless, which I submit it wasn't. Of course this means any gripes I have rest entirely with Jun Maeda and not Kyoani's staff who were more or less just doing their jobs and trying not to get firebombed by die-hard Maeda fans over in Japan. In their case it's a bit of a catch-22.

Anyway, I feel that's if worth mention that if I were gauging this show solely on it's attempts to illicit emotional reactions from the viewers that it gets a flat out 10/10, but unfortunately I'm not so I have to account for a number of other areas where Clannad falls far short of the mark it set with episode 18.
But do you really even understand how or why the ending happened. It wasn't just yay. It was a pretty complex idea far cry from how Mai Hime ended. Not saying you can't have an opion about it and I accept your opinion. But as I said before... (see previous posts) how the story wouldn't be as it was unless it failed in which it would seem too similiar to another title.

Um not with Jun Maeda but with KEY it is a studio. As said before his original idea was changed due to how games like AIR was received.
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Old 2009-03-12, 22:07   Link #93
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So being an impatient little dumbass, I became totally incapable of waiting for the subs after seeing Mei's teenage snapshot. So I watched it, and was pleasantly surprised to find I understood the spoken words entirely. Granted, there wasn't that much dialogue as per usual, but still, that renders me largely delighted.

Anyways, while the entire concept of the good end is, indeed, a deus ex machina "gift" to the viewers, I don't have a problem with it. Though the anime certainly isn't a first-persona narration like the VN, we, the viewers, have still had to see the tragic events that occurred within Clannad's canon, and frankly, it was painful. Whether the events that transpired in this episode are totally off-the-wall, ridiculous, or whatever other colourful synonym you want to use, just for a short 23 minutes, I'm willing to dispel my common sense and just breathe in the possibility that in some other world this might happen, and let myself be pleased with an impossible yet satisfying end. I mean, after bombarding us with the worst possible tragedies, I find it odd that someone's actually NOT thinking like a sap and not wanting something - anything - good to just happen, and let it be done with. Sure, I had to toss my common sense out the proverbial window in order to accept this end, and I don't want to contemplate it too hard, either, or that which I've discarded may find a way to reenter said sealed window. And that would result in me potentially feeling a terrible depression over Clannad all over again. But my case and point being that, while I don't oppose criticism of a series like Clannad in the slightest - I've had many qualms over the course of this season that I usually keep to myself because it's just such a pain to post something negative and then get hollered at for it - I think that just for a moment, just to give me something to smile at, I can temporarily kick reason to the curb and believe what KyoAni wants me to believe. The two concepts of the robot evaporating and mindblasting into Tomoya's head and Tomoya keeping his memories of his bad end and the memories from the illusionary world ? Wouldn't believe it for a second. And that's why I'm not going to think about the episode's events at all. I wanted a happy end, ultimately, and if this is the only happy end I can get, whether it's plausible or not... well, beggars can't be choosers, as they say.
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Old 2009-03-12, 22:12   Link #94
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No offense to anyone, but I am MAJORLY miffed at people who assume that the core themes (and I bold the s) of Clannad ended prior to episode 21 with whatever resolution to the theme that occurred there. The thematic concerns of this story does not end there, neither was it complete, because the theme further develops and is extended as the story progresses, practically the same as with any story. The ending here seeks to add yet another theme to what the story barely touched upon that day in April where a man and a woman first met at the bottom of the hill. One could say that their chance meeting on that hill was a miracle in and of itself.

pcube19622 was the one who completey hit the nail on the head here: that things do change. I go a bit further to state that this goes further to say that even the future itself changes, that the future is not set in stone, that Tomoya had experienced the downright impossible miracle of living through this statement. I'll cookie you later for that.

It is clear enough to me that the thematic journey through the Clannad universe did not end with 18. Even though 18 is still my favotie episode overall, it still felt incomplete and unfinished, like a diamond still unrefined and and unpolished. Here and in the game, episode 18 of AS felt only like the major stepping stone toward a conclusion that can ONLY EXIST because episode 18 was there. Episode 18 was the signal that foretold the end, not an ending in and of itself. Episode 18 began the journey towards the miracle that Tomoya had struggled to earn, but only with a cost.

Suffering predates reward.

If anything the core theme that the Key writers, and maybe Maeda in particular, have been trying to get across to people is the belief that indeed there is a light at the end of the tunnel no matter how unbelievable or unlikely it seems to be. As such, the tunnel is but a required means of getting there, part and parcel of the road that one indertakes in search of their miracle, the end to their sufferings and that island of joy in a sea of troubles.

Miracles are miracles because they are unlikely to happen, most likely outlandish and reality defying at their cores, and one is not likely to encounter one any time soon. And yet people believe in miracles because despite the odds, they have indeed occurred, and while Clannad does take this theme to an extreme, that is precisely the point of the ending.

That one must experience his circumstances and learn what he must, to learn that which will make him understand what he truly wants and what he truly holds dear. That one must go through life experiencing its ups and downs, its ease and hardships, and one slowly matures towards the moment in time where he can finally say to himself "this is what I'm looking for". That one takes with stride and demeanor even those experiences that wishes to crush him, the experiences that makes him questions his bonds and his beliefs, the experiences that strains his dreams and his desires, the experiences that shatter his world and his reality and the experiences that pushes him when he's down (Season 1 and 2 of Clannad). Towards finally, nearing end of man's Sysiphian struggle, the experience that puts all things into perspective (Episode 18-20).

It is after all that, when man has finally learned and experienced his life for all it's worth, does he finally earn the right to his miracle. (True End).


Had not Tomoya experienced all this?

And thus I think precisely Jun Maeda's point: that only when man has experienced the entire spectrum of life experience and learns that which he must does he earn the right to that which is supernatural, unbelievable and unlikely: the human Miracle.

And what is this miracle?

The family is this miracle. A family incomplete without Nagisa.

Call it a miracle of unlikely odds. That 2 broken humans could ever meet at the bottom of that hill that April morning. That 2 of them would ever eat in the courtyard and exchange their names. That 2 of them would try and restart a club no one wants.

That 2 of them would ever meet a ghost girl who's only wish is the happiness of her sister. That 2 of them would ever befriend a pair of twins with such a diverse sepctrum of personality. That the 2 of them would ever befriend a genius girl who had locked away her heart after the death of her parents, only to open it from its glass prison.

The 2 of them would become part of the movement to save the very same cherry trees under whose guises they first met. The 2 of them would prove their mettle by playing a game of basketball against the school's own varsity team. The 2 of them would create a play about an Illusionary World that would bring people to tears. The 2 of them would help in the reconciliation of a brother and sister. The 2 of them would even bring together rival gangs in the midst of anger and hatred.

And at the end of all this still, that 2 broken and lonely human beings would fall in love and get married, after one punches a wall in a silent scream of his sadness and desperation. For it is here that they realize just how much the 2 of them have come, and that truly, they need each other.

Even in death as the remaining one learns what it is to be a father, a husband and a son.

Here he learns what family is all about, even though the family is not physically present.

That family itself IS a miracle.

This is family.

This is Clannad.
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Old 2009-03-12, 22:14   Link #95
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OK looks like I don't have to rage. Good end is good. But I don't get it.
Imaginary world. I don't get it. Parallel universe? I don't get it.

I would've settled with Ushio being fine and Nagisa staying dead. But they brought the whole gang back, and Fool-ko still gets to be friends with Ushio. Weird stuff, but I love the ending nonetheless.

Favorite part was when Tomoya decided to go back and grab Nagisa's arm on the hill. Almost...almost cried.

Now I just need to scour the Internet (or this thread) for what this episode means and why Nagisa is back alive.

I also like all the extra touch to the ending scene when the opening sequence of Clannad and Clannad After comes full circle and is shown. I like that.

Oh and LOL what? A spunky Kotomi-chan? Madness.
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Old 2009-03-12, 22:15   Link #96
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Quote:
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Spoiler for MILF!:
Clannad is PROOF that running/exercise is good is for you, look at Sanae and AKio Akki.
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Old 2009-03-12, 22:20   Link #97
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That family itself IS a miracle.

This is family.

This is Clannad.
And it's absolutely 100% pure feel good fantasy and little else. I can accept that though, I just refuse to accept that Clannad was some ultra deep and resonating work of art that is meant to teach me some sort of significant lesson about family.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post

It is different in a respect from a character that supposedly died in one episode suddenly coming back half a series later with the basic "I got better" or "I was saved from the fall" excuse. This was more the character died at one point in the series and at the end you get to go back and live that part over again where they lived instead from the exact same point. It is a matter of how it is was executed rather than just the event as a plot point.
I'm sorry, I fail to see how either is more excusable then the other. And I've also seen the former executed perfectly fine and with perfectly valid reasons to justify it only for it to still be a major problem with a lot of people as far as recent series go so I can't say that's how it works at all. To me it just seems a whole lot simpler then that. People just pick and choose based on what they've decided to like ahead of time whether a plot development is acceptable or if it's going to get ridiculed.
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Old 2009-03-12, 22:27   Link #98
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Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama View Post
And it's absolutely 100% pure feel good fantasy and little else. I can accept that though, I just refuse to accept that Clannad was some ultra deep and resonating work of art that is meant to teach me some sort of significant lesson about family.
Because Clannad isn't some super deep work of art or genius mode of storytelling. It's still a simple story of simple means involving simple people in a not so simple premise, delivered in an old tried and tested method of storytelling.

It's still supposed to teach a lesson of family though, one that I am thankful that many others have managed to see.
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Old 2009-03-12, 22:32   Link #99
Ithekro
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Some people have good families, some don't. It is the nature of the human race.

Ushio's family is not perfect, but it is functional. She only has one set of fuctional grandparents (Tomoya's father is spent and Tomoya's mother is long dead), but she makes do with some of the best grandparents possible.

That and we only see their lives together until Ushio is five. If the couple are truely suited for each other, this time isn't all that difficult...it is when the child becomes a teenager that things get rough.
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Old 2009-03-12, 22:35   Link #100
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Quote:
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*snips*
Given the course I'm taking, I have to say, I don't agree. I'm taking up a Master's degree in Creative Writing, but I don't need the actual degree to see that the conclusion... Isn't great.

When you think with your head instead of your heart, then please tell me how the message of Family not have been given more credence by the fact that an emotionally broken man finally found the strength to reach out to a daughter he never knew, and make up for the years that he was never there for her? The message is not diluted by the fact that Tomoya would pretty much have to race Ushio on his own, in fact it strengthens the theme of Family, in that no matter how screwed up your life has been, a person's family will always, ALWAYS be there for them.

Also, that life isn't fair.

But again, we're talking about something that came from Jun Maeda's pen.
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