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Old 2009-08-02, 21:31   Link #481
MeoTwister5
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Jeebus Mirai may be annoying as hell but a Shinji comparison? Even that's unfair to Mirai.
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Old 2009-08-02, 21:34   Link #482
Fevvers
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Well, after watching episode 4, I must say that I am outta here. For a show that's trying to go for the semi-realistic route, the dire situations the characters come across with feels so manufactured and contrived. From Yuki getting lost then immediately getting found to a bridge falling on a bunch of nameless people who from what I can tell we're not even supposed to feel due to the own little world the main characters live in, the past few episodes screamed nothing more but emotional farce for me it makes me laugh. A pity.
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Old 2009-08-02, 22:14   Link #483
Guardian Enzo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
Jeebus Mirai may be annoying as hell but a Shinji comparison? Even that's unfair to Mirai.
Well, I'm a Shinji defender so I didn't mean it in an entirely unflattering way - more in the line of how controversial each of them are. Compared to Shinji, Mirai (and Job, for that matter) struck gold in the luck department.
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Old 2009-08-03, 00:06   Link #484
Kaoru Chujo
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In full agreement with orion and others on Mirai. Very real and understandable character. I'm not into blaming a kid for being a kid, even if it would be a trial to be with her.

I can deeply feel her annoyance with Yuuki, who is innocently making things harder for her. And when he switches over into imitating Mari's amused superiority, I am very annoyed. He reminds me of a line from a Bob Dylan song: "I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now." Yuuki has the false maturity of an obedient child. Mirai is just beginning to enter the treacherous emotional rollercoaster of the teen years, becoming responsible for her own actions. It takes time.

And for those who dislike Mirai intensely, please remember that Yuuki would be lying dead in the mall by now if she hadn't been immature and disobedient and gone back to find him.

As for the wonderful discussion of how to form judgments, I think we can empathize with others enough to understand how a 13-year-old of either gender might feel. We just need to exercise our empathy and intelligence. I am dead against the idea that only a woman can write as a woman, or only a man can write as a man. The postmodern tendency to think otherwise is almost mediaeval, in my opinion.

And I think that although perfect objectivity is impossible, that doesn't mean we should not at least try to be objective. We can't be totally objective, but we can definitely be broad-minded and fair.

Contrarily, I really have to depend on my own instinctive reactions to decide whether I like a show or not. But I do try to hear what other people say, particularly when I don't like a show and they do, because I might be missing out on some enjoyment.
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Old 2009-08-03, 00:42   Link #485
Guardian Enzo
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Boy, I just do not see the Yuuki imitating Mari thing - I think that's a mis-reading. I think he's just trying his best to be supportive, but that's me.

I've been fascinated to see some of the reactions to this ep, both here and in the blogs. "There’s a place in hell for people who can be cruel to such good-heartedness from such a sweet little boy." "Seeing that poor little boy being mistreated was absolutely horrible; I wanted to take him into my arms, and reassure him." Contrasted with, "I am very annoyed." with Yuuki, in about a dozen different forms.

I'd be very interested to see if some of this dichotomy of reaction has a gender bias. Or, even more likely, a sibling order bias - are youngests (like me) more likely to empathize with Yuuki? Olders more likely to find him annoying and Mirai's actions understandable? It wouldn't surprise me a bit if there's something to that.

In any case, I believe it's testament to how on the money the family dynamics here are that the emotional reaction by the viewers has been so visceral. This is masterful stuff.
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Old 2009-08-03, 01:32   Link #486
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Mirai is pretty mess up yelling at Yuki like that but it's understandable. I hope none of the main characters die.
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Old 2009-08-03, 01:46   Link #487
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The only thing that really bugs me about Mirai is that she cares alot about Yuuki and yet everytime the topic of their parents gets brought up she disregards his feelings as if she doesn't understand him at all. Yes we know she hates her parents and I'm sure to keep hearing about them from her brother must annoy her, but to care about your siblings is to understand them and how they feel and that being said you would think if she truly cared about Yuuki she'd leave her personal feelings aside instead of what she has done up to this point.

I can empathize with her if only for the fact that lashing out like that towards family members due to one's personal problems isn't exactly uncommon.
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Old 2009-08-03, 09:54   Link #488
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I was wondering how long it would take for them to bring down one the most iconic images of Tokyo. Tokyo tower falling was inevitable when i saw how the ground around it had eroded and sank in there was nothing to hold the weight of the tower and down its went. Im just glad the kids were hurt but it could have been much much worse. Just like watching the bridge fall i was like SHIT this they really went all out trying draw out the audiences emotions.
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Old 2009-08-03, 12:10   Link #489
drobertbaker
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Our reaction to Mirai's behavior ranges from minimal tolerance with many excuses to total intolerance with much head slapping. I've never seen an anime character like this before. Can anyone cast light on what a typical Japanese reaction to her behavior would be? It's hard to believe that Saint Mari can be considered typical.
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Old 2009-08-03, 12:16   Link #490
Guardian Enzo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drobertbaker View Post
Our reaction to Mirai's behavior ranges from minimal tolerance with many excuses to total intolerance with much head slapping. I've never seen an anime character like this before. Can anyone cast light on what a typical Japanese reaction to her behavior would be? It's hard to believe that Saint Mari can be considered typical.
See: Ikari, Shinji
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Old 2009-08-03, 12:21   Link #491
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Shinji moaned and groaned, but essentially curled up in the fetal position and retreated into introspection on "What's wrong with me?". This one is cynical, mean, and nasty and stews on "What's wrong with you!". More like Asuka with no redeeming qualities or spirit.
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Old 2009-08-03, 13:06   Link #492
Guardian Enzo
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Like Taiga from Toradora...
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Old 2009-08-03, 14:40   Link #493
FireChick
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uhhh...is there such thing as an episode 0 for this series? I think Hatsuyuki-subs need to do a spell-check.
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Old 2009-08-03, 14:55   Link #494
Kaoru Chujo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drobertbaker View Post
Our reaction to Mirai's behavior ranges from minimal tolerance with many excuses to total intolerance with much head slapping. I've never seen an anime character like this before....
I actually positively enjoy her, because she is so unusual and so real. I don't want to be considered someone with "minimal tolerance" for her. That we haven't seen a character like her before is a big plus for this show.

Going back to our discussion of how to judge anime, I was thinking that there are two parts to criticism: identifying a show's characteristics, and deciding whether we like it or not. Even if we don't like a show or a character, we can usefully discuss just exactly what they are like. We may then be able to figure out why we enjoy or don't enjoy them. And we can possibly agree on a description even if we differ on whether we rate a show highly or not.

For instance, I agree that Mirai is a little pill. But I for one deeply enjoy watching her.

As for her role in the show, I think that if we can only sympathize with her and get inside her feelings, we can feel what it might feel like to be in a situation like this. Like I said before, she is the protagonist, through whom we experience the show. It's a lot more interesting to me than if she were more stoic, stable, and mature.
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Old 2009-08-03, 16:57   Link #495
Guardian Enzo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drobertbaker View Post
Shinji moaned and groaned, but essentially curled up in the fetal position and retreated into introspection on "What's wrong with me?". This one is cynical, mean, and nasty and stews on "What's wrong with you!". More like Asuka with no redeeming qualities or spirit.
Again, my comparison is not the character itself but the anger they seem to inspire in the viewer. And both characters, I would argue, deserve better.

But Mirai still should have apologized to Yuuki...
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Old 2009-08-03, 17:57   Link #496
drobertbaker
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Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo View Post
I actually positively enjoy her, because she is so unusual and so real. I don't want to be considered someone with "minimal tolerance" for her. That we haven't seen a character like her before is a big plus for this show.

Going back to our discussion of how to judge anime, I was thinking that there are two parts to criticism: identifying a show's characteristics, and deciding whether we like it or not. Even if we don't like a show or a character, we can usefully discuss just exactly what they are like. We may then be able to figure out why we enjoy or don't enjoy them. And we can possibly agree on a description even if we differ on whether we rate a show highly or not.

For instance, I agree that Mirai is a little pill. But I for one deeply enjoy watching her.

As for her role in the show, I think that if we can only sympathize with her and get inside her feelings, we can feel what it might feel like to be in a situation like this. Like I said before, she is the protagonist, through whom we experience the show. It's a lot more interesting to me than if she were more stoic, stable, and mature.
でも薫さんも類型的じゃない。

I enjoy the character as well. As I said, she is unique.

But you don't really like that person, do you? In real life, I would adjust that attitude with a good smack.

I was referring to our reactions to such real life behavior. Would the Japanese have a different range of reactions than those that have been expressed here? e.g. ignore it from embarassment? etc.

From a critical point of view, I don't believe that a character need be "typical" or likeable to be believable or interesting. The biggest innovation of the 18th century novel was the introduction of everyday names to characters, indicating that they were real individuals, rather than the 17th century stereotypes who had allegorical names.

This meant that a character no longer had to behave as a stereotype or a symbol. The character complexity that we admire today is constructed of a particular collection of quirks and ideosyncracies that separates that character from everyone else as an individual. A normal teacher is boring. Onizuka is interesting.

So what I or the "average person" would do or feel in a given situation is not a measure of the credibility of a character's actions. Nor is how much I like or sympathise with a character as a person a measure of the quality of the characterization.
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Last edited by drobertbaker; 2009-08-03 at 18:21.
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Old 2009-08-03, 20:43   Link #497
Reckoner
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Was finally able to catch up with episode 3 and 4.

What many people don't seem to understand that this show is doing to them, I believe, is that the intoxicated feeling that it invokes shows how real it is.

People are sick of Mirai's angsty attitude toward her brother, and are a little distraught about how she is treating him and how she carries out her own self. However, I ask everyone to take a step back and think about typical days with your families. Think maybe to those extra long car rides where people are getting angry with each other and you get a little fed up with those around you. Think back to those moments where you harmed your sibling because you're not in a good mood, but later regret it.

I know I get fed up with this sort of drama in life that is basically needless, and if you are fed up with the attitude of our main protagonist, I ask you to step back and think about moments in your life that mirror these exact things.

I'm willing to bet that most of you can relate very well to this whether you realize it or not.
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Old 2009-08-04, 00:10   Link #498
Guardian Enzo
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4.1% for TM8 last week, up from 3.8. Still holding strong. So far, neither the quality or the populairy has dropped, and I still love it. Something has to give...
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Old 2009-08-04, 01:04   Link #499
Theowne
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In my personal opinion something did give..I agree with Ninjacat and am slightly disappointed that they have done the "narrowly escaping falling debris" thing.

Of course, I still think it's the second-best show airing right now. I just thought it could consistently take more of a Grave-of-the-Fireflies approach to drama.
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Old 2009-08-04, 02:38   Link #500
TinyRedLeaf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo View Post
...I think we can empathize with others enough to understand how a 13-year-old of either gender might feel. We just need to exercise our empathy and intelligence. I am dead against the idea that only a woman can write as a woman, or only a man can write as a man. The postmodern tendency to think otherwise is almost mediaeval, in my opinion.

And I think that although perfect objectivity is impossible, that doesn't mean we should not at least try to be objective. We can't be totally objective, but we can definitely be broad-minded and fair.
My sentiments exactly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by drobertbaker View Post
Our reaction to Mirai's behavior ranges from minimal tolerance with many excuses to total intolerance with much head slapping. I've never seen an anime character like this before. Can anyone cast light on what a typical Japanese reaction to her behavior would be? It's hard to believe that Saint Mari can be considered typical.
I have. They're very rare, but they have appeared in at least two Ghibli movies, namely Spirited Away and Only Yesterday.

Particularly Only Yesterday, which I rewatched last night. It's amazing how well director Isao Takahata and chief animator Yoshifumi Kondou captured the thoughts, feelings and behaviour of young children. Ten-year-old Taeko Okajima was a precocious little child who was often at odds with her parents and elder sisters because of her atypical interests in the arts and the simple, carefree life. To them, she was a spoilt and unreasonable child who stubbornly refused to "fit in" with the family and society. To her, at 10 years old, she often couldn't understand why everyone seemed to be going against her.

It wasn't until many years later, when Taeko had already turned 27, that she realised what she was rebelling against all along. And even then, it wasn't something she figured out on her own. It took another man to point it out to her, in the most patient and forbearing fashion possible.

That's what I would hope from viewers of TM8 as well, with regard to Mirai. Show some forbearance. Put yourself in the shoes of a young teenage girl in present-day Japan. Because the producers of this show have certainly gone a long way towards doing the same.
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