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Old 2009-09-12, 09:03   Link #1041
BetoJR
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
I was going to respond to BetoJr and Kaioshin because they bring up some valid arguments about me and the other critic's approach on the show and the way we interpret things, but hey if every one esle feels that any sort of contrary opinions are automatically unwelcomed then fine, I'll stay away from this thread from now on.
I don't think you should care about such assessments, as long as things stay civil. I, for one, would welcome your responses.
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Old 2009-09-12, 10:01   Link #1042
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Watch my needle move from "docu-drama good" to "hmmm, interesting drama" to "annoyed at arm waving fantasy" as the episodes unfold.... not sure I'm going to be surprised at a movie "Wizard of Oz" ending at this point :P
Take it easy, Vexx. Actually Mirai seems to be having Brief Psychotic Disorder. Let's see - core symptoms (at least one of four):
delusions (she believe Yuuki is alive) - check
hallucinations (see dead people, hear dead people) - check
speech that is markedly disorganized (not at the first glance, but when you think how she sounds to somebody who is not seeing ghosts) - maybe
behavior that is markedly disorganized or catatonic (not obvious because of situation, but present, at least in disorganized part) - maybe

Also, common additional symptoms: impaired attention, rapidly changing mood, impaired memory for recent events.

She needs help. Debriefing and - in longer term - psychotherapy. The good thing is symptoms in Brief Psychotic Disorder tend do disappear on their own within two weeks at most.
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Old 2009-09-12, 10:22   Link #1043
Deathkillz
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It's simple really, those who want to believe that it is fantasy then Yuuki is a ghost, those who want to keep the realism then it is a figment of Mirai's imagination ie hallucination/delusion.

I am going for the latter
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Old 2009-09-12, 10:32   Link #1044
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Hmm...first time to look at this...reminds me of the game

Raw Danger...no! That's the sequel...I meant this.



Disaster Report. Might look at this, love this kinda stuff.
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Old 2009-09-12, 10:40   Link #1045
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People were discounting the realism of the show before the idea of a "ghost" ever came into the picture. I'm not going to join this "hey I have a degree in XXX therefore I am right" kind of thing, but let's just say that, yes, counting sibling grief as a cause and from my knowledge, I'm afraid I still don't find Mirai's descent into straitjacket lunacy believable - not just seeing a vision, but having an constant walking-talking hallucination of her brother. Some of you think this is believable, fine. I'm not going to bother going any further on that subject unless someone has a published scientific paper which either directly supports or refutes this phenomenon with regards to sibling bereavement with normal (healthy) people. Anecdotes and internet credential building won't lead us anywhere.

As before, Sorrow-K has effectively summed up my thoughts on this episode. I also agree that I think this kind of episode could have been moving if there weren't the whole "I see dead people" shtick hanging over it. The main issue for me personally is that I don't like feeling like what I'm watching is blatantly the work of writers, which decreases the emotional response from me, and I feel TM8 has done that starting a few episodes back because of the change, which feels too inconsistent with the earlier tone.

I'm sure many of you left in this thread don't agree, but, well, that's my opinion (and probably not going to defend it any more).

As for why there isn't much discussion, the debate over the change in style has already been covered, not much point in rehashing it. Most people who don't like it have probably moved on.
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Old 2009-09-12, 10:46   Link #1046
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Quote:
Originally Posted by puppygod View Post
Take it easy, Vexx. Actually Mirai seems to be having Brief Psychotic Disorder. Let's see - core symptoms (at least one of four):
delusions (she believe Yuuki is alive) - check
hallucinations (see dead people, hear dead people) - check
speech that is markedly disorganized (not at the first glance, but when you think how she sounds to somebody who is not seeing ghosts) - maybe
behavior that is markedly disorganized or catatonic (not obvious because of situation, but present, at least in disorganized part) - maybe

Also, common additional symptoms: impaired attention, rapidly changing mood, impaired memory for recent events.

She needs help. Debriefing and - in longer term - psychotherapy. The good thing is symptoms in Brief Psychotic Disorder tend do disappear on their own within two weeks at most.
That's what I'm hoping they're trying to portray. One can always argue about whether they portrayed it well or not.... or whether it was a good idea to portray it Mirai's point-of-view rather than Mari's (our perspective).
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Old 2009-09-12, 11:52   Link #1047
Rockpopple
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Finally seeing the subbed version, all I'm gonna say was that this anime in it's penultimate episode was something a little different from what I usually see. I honestly think they adhered to their "realism" statement in the beginning of every episode regarding the earthquake and its consequences.

Yuuki dying in the way he did, while shocking and tragic and sudden, was realistic. Sort of "ripped from the Headlines" as it were (someone way upthread noticed this), but realistic.

Mirai having uncontrollable (and for her, inexplicable) bouts of sadness was touching. It sort of pointed to me that she wasn't having a hallucination like I thought (or feared) in the last 2 episodes. Instead, I think she's just in shock/denial. She refused to believe that Yuuki is dead. At the same time, she's clearly talking to something that doesn't exist. I'm leaning towards Yuuki being a ghost, and that being combined with Mirai's denial playing all sorts of havoc with her emotions.

But I'm sure that it'll correct itself for Mirai, in a spectacularly emotional fashion I bet. Maybe Mari will catch up with her and prevent her from doing something stupid.

In any case, I enjoyed the anime for what it was and I'm looking forward to its conclusion.
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Old 2009-09-12, 11:55   Link #1048
Itlandm
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Well, I got all the way to Ep 10 before I came to this thread, and I thought the show was done quite well. People, Mirai is delusional. It has been shown to varying degrees since the hospital scene. You don't think that is realistic? For an immature 14 year old who has just watched her world break, who did not know whether her parents and friends were alive or dead, and then had her only brother die while she was responsible for him? I think this was done near perfectly.

Of course, if he sticks around as a ghost doing various miraculous things, I'll be annoyed too. But so far he hasn't done anything that Mirai's subconscious could not have done.

I think this is one of the few cases where the Animesuki forums actually make a series LESS enjoyable. If I had read this thread before, I might not have liked the show as much as I did.
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Old 2009-09-12, 12:33   Link #1049
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...waaaaaaah! Everyone was right! I never thought it would come to this! Waaaaaah!! Yuukiiiiii! ;_____;
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Old 2009-09-12, 13:52   Link #1050
Ascaloth
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Episode 10.

You know what's the difference between this show and True Tears? At least the latter tried to get back to its best before the end. I think this is diving from plotquake straight into trainwreck territory at this point.

Oh, whatever. I don't care anymore.
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Old 2009-09-12, 15:14   Link #1051
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deathie
It's simple really, those who want to believe that it is fantasy then Yuuki is a ghost, those who want to keep the realism then it is a figment of Mirai's imagination ie hallucination/delusion.

I am going for the latter
It really is a good way to tell whether people have chosen to view this show with their constructive criticism glasses on or their destructive criticism glasses on.

I love how some people are clearly being totally fair with this show. Whatever, if this is what they want...it's just a bloody damn shame, especially now when we're starting to get people complaining of it dimishing their enjoyment of the show such that they can no longer take part in the thread. You'd even think with the sheer bloodlust that people have been going at it over this one issue that expectations would have dropped a little over the course of the last few weeks and things would even out a little in how people approach the show, but nope. It all just adds credence to my belief some people just really want to label this show a failure in a bigger they are harder they fall sort of endeavour. Me, I always take the approach that gets me the most enjoyment out of the show if it's offered, which is why I still pick delusion over ghost until proven otherwise because it fits more with the style of the show prior to it and means I get to puzzle over the possible symbolism of it, which to me is fun. If she's a ghost when then frankly that's stupid, and since I clearly heard the words "I am dead" and not "I am a ghost" it's obvious that given the option of free interpretation I'll pick the one I think best fits with the narrative instead of the one that gets me bitching endlessly about how the show is apparently a trainwreck (Not that I give any sort of weight to Trollscaloth's opinion beyond using it as an example given his tendency for only "criticizing" [stretching the definition of the word here] shows that aren't called Haruhi). I guess that's just the way I am.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorrow-K View Post
Ep 10

I think this just shows plainly how weak the whole Mirai delusion thing was, because they probably could have written it out and this would have been rather dramatic. The classroom scene was a really good opportunity to have Mirai in a moment where she could really reflect on Yuuki's death, without distraction, and properly mourn. Instead we get this whole contrived, stretched-out back-and-forth with Yuuki appearing every time Mirai was alone that just came off as really awkward. The character she spent the most time interacting with pretty much ended up thinking she was crazy... why does Bones think the audience isn't going to be thinking the exact same thing about Mirai as Itsuki did?
I don't know about that. I didn't get any impression from Yuuki's friend that he thought Mirai was crazy up until the very moment when it became obvious that Yuuki could no longer actually be there. Up until that moment he completely believed her that Yuuki had just been running off and coming back. However why they did it like 5 times or so is beyond me.

Quote:
And if it turns out he's a ghost... well, so much for realism. A sense of "realism" is already pretty much shot, but given the premise's seeming regard towards realism, Yuuki turning out to be a ghost rather than a delusion goes past "careless" and well into the realm of "insulting".
We don't know that he's a ghost. See my post on the previous page. At no point did the show ever come and state flat out that he was a ghost versus a delusion unless some people watched some really bad subs or something. Even then the actual Japanese dialogue as I mentioned should show you the way. It's still ambiguous, but unless they're really foolish in how they unveil this in the last episode then I'm going for delusion conjured up by Mirai to help her cope.

Quote:
This ep, IMO, really puts Mirai's delusion past the point of "annoying inconsistency". I can totally see why people are hung up on it. It weakens (and almost cripples) the rest of what this show is trying to say on a character- and thematic level.
Hmmm...can't say so. It wasn't the only thing this episode dealt with, nor the last one, nor even one before that either. I think the onus still lies on the viewer to decide whether they want to dwell on and nitpick it, or just take in the whole show along with it even if it does weaken it a bit. The last episode is going to be the real deciding factor on whether it brings down the whole show, not this one.

Quote:
The other criticism is that the show has become predictable. When Yuuki urged Mirai to follow Itsuki into the house, who didn't see a tremor coming, and Mirai needing to save Itsuki? Real life doesn't give such fragrant warnings about what's coming next. The writers need a new trick. I can't believe they'd run out of new ideas after just ten episodes...
That point I actually do agree with completely and it's one that I have felt irked about for some time. It's almost felt like the earthquake has been following them around and striking at the worst possible moment for added drama. I felt that the very first time the aftershock hit and caused the bridge to collapse almost killing the trio if they had been on the boat prior to it. Same for the tokyo tower and again same for the house they were in this episode. The cue seems to have became whenever they are inside or near a large object that could fall and crush them if an earthquake strikes. That's television though I suppose.

Last edited by Kaioshin Sama; 2009-09-12 at 15:44.
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Old 2009-09-12, 15:34   Link #1052
orion
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
Episode 10. Pretty sure Itsuki's thinking this woman has far too many screw loose by the end.

Honestly, I found the presentation of the scenes where Yuuki was shown to be have been tagged as dead at the hospital to be really, really cheap if not ridiculous. There's really no reason for us not to be shown this scene in the episode where it happens. It's as if the producers implicitly decided to cut it out and save it for this episode. It's practically a simple bait and switch to lure the viewer in with a possibility when it has already happened, despite the fact that the main characters have even seen it!

Think about it, everyone saw him being tagged and declared dead, and at the very least Mirai is just blocking out the memories, but Mari saw it too. From either an objective viewpoint or from the viewpoint of the characters there is almost no reason not to show this to us. It's not as if no one was there to witness it but they were; this wasn't an unobserved event. If we are supposed to be seeing this from the viewpoint of the main cast then we should have seen even some sort of inkling of this. Mirai just blocked it out completely and Mari for some damn reason won't let us see it. Now if we're supposed to be omniscient viewers then we should be party to everything they see, regardless of mental blocking.

This is sloppy to me. It's so... so convenient that we get shown this scene and think "Oh so that's what happened!" when the writers think they should show us. It's so convenient for them to be switching viewpoints and plot points all over the place to find some excuse not to give us this, and show this to us using a flashback at the most convenient of times. By convenient I mean "let's milk the audience for all they're worth."

*sigh*

I would have at the very least would have wanted that he's simply her delusion rather than being alluded to as a ghost and saying "I'm dead" at the end. Fine, I'll man it up and just take this in stride. One more episode to go and I might as well ride it out.
Actually Mirai did something far worse imo.

She fabricated a surgery scenario for Yuuki as a psych barrier defense (ep. 8 flashback) that was seen as a dream which never really happened. So the real scene being shown does have some value. Yuuki was DOA. There was no waiting in the surgical waiting area or in the hospital waiting area. No surgeon to apologize. Just the morgue scene at the end was the only true part of that dream from ep.8 imo. In fact, most of what was shown after entering the hospital grounds was the dream sequence with her mind trying to let reality in and ultimately losing imo.

It can go either way. Delusion or ghost.

I vote ghost as the influences Yuuki had in the ep afterwards just can't be explained away by delusion. Yuuki had to come back and support Mirai's delusion until she could accept the fact that he was dead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by guenthar View Post
Where in this show does it indicate he is a ghost when everything has indicated that he is a delusion. The part with finding Mari's mother and daughter was Mirai's mind not excepting that Mari's family was dead so insisting they were alive. Mirai's subconscious mind is slowly excepting Yuuki's death throughout episode 10 and Yuuki is her subconscious mind telling her that Yuuki is dead.
Yuuki had way too much effect on the environ to be a delusion. He told Mirai to find Hina and made Mirai get into the safe part of the building before the other part collapses. He got Mirai to come to his classroom and retrieve the journal. Now he's floating in mid air.

A delusion also does not attempt to get you back into reality. It's there to protect you from reality. Yuuki flat out told her that he was dead.

That's why I vote ghost.

----

Brief Psychotic Disorder works if you don't believe in ghosts and ignore the rest of the criteria. Her speech and behavior is not disorganized imo. She's doesn't meet the criteria or age of onset imo.

Just accept that this is drama and stop overextending yourselves please.
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Old 2009-09-12, 18:45   Link #1053
achirist
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Originally Posted by Claies View Post
Now, the way I think you want them to do this would be to have three separate storylines of drastically different people reacting to the disaster, but splitting character development in 12 episodes in three pieces just won't work. There would also be a timeskip every episode to portray all the social conflicts you mentioned. Lastly, I'd be hard-pressed to care for that many characters. There would be at least three people that I'd wish the plot to just not touch again. I prefer how we only have to hear about three (now one) characters, and see the full view of their experiences.

EDIT: Actually, I think you want one-shot episodes portraying the government, business, and laypeople. You can probably blame them not doing this on marketing. This fits in a novel, and the TV-watching audience isn't going to care.
I don't follow your assumptions on what I supposedly wanted the show to be like. While it would be fine to totally restructure the show, all I said was that they could have followed the character's lives afterwards in tandem with what happens after a natural disaster instead of making highly melodramatic fiction/audience baiting (since we are all just dying to know what will happen at the end--if the children reach their parents or not) about about these children making their way home. If they explored the aftermath of a disaster, which is not only sentimental, that would have been more interesting to me. Towers fell with much story-centered drama, but how/when will they be rebuilt (a rhetorical question, mind you)?


I think it is perfectly justifiable that some people went into this show thinking it would be something other than what it has turned out to be, and those of us whose affection waned midway through the series should be able to say so.
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Old 2009-09-12, 19:50   Link #1054
guenthar
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imaginary_friend

Here is a link to information on imaginary friends and if you combine that with the Trauma that Mirai has gone through that means it would be a very realistic situation where she would create a delusion of her brother still being alive.

In the part where they went to find Mari's family Mirai would have done the same thing if she wasn't seeing her brother since that is what she wanted to do so could be explained as her subconscious mind wanting to find Mari's family. Also if you pay close attention to the part where the house was collapsing the area where Mirai and Itsuki were was starting to collapse so she would have moved even without her brother there. Mirai has probably been to Yuuki's class before so would know where it is and Itsuki told her about the journal so she would want it as a memory of Yuuki.
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Old 2009-09-12, 20:02   Link #1055
golthin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orion View Post
It can go either way. Delusion or ghost.

I vote ghost as the influences Yuuki had in the ep afterwards just can't be explained away by delusion. Yuuki had to come back and support Mirai's delusion until she could accept the fact that he was dead.



Yuuki had way too much effect on the environ to be a delusion. He told Mirai to find Hina and made Mirai get into the safe part of the building before the other part collapses. He got Mirai to come to his classroom and retrieve the journal. Now he's floating in mid air.

A delusion also does not attempt to get you back into reality. It's there to protect you from reality. Yuuki flat out told her that he was dead.

That's why I vote ghost.

Without getting into med stuff, the details that you pointed out make look more like it is a ghost than an imaginary Yuuki. He kept disappearing so people wouldn't stop Mirai because they thought she was crazy. He stayed around only for Mari and at the end for his friend when he was ready to mov on. Also, in the truck ride yuuki was trying to see how Mirai would react if he told her the truth.
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Old 2009-09-12, 20:55   Link #1056
orion
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guenthar View Post
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imaginary_friend

Here is a link to information on imaginary friends and if you combine that with the Trauma that Mirai has gone through that means it would be a very realistic situation where she would create a delusion of her brother still being alive.

In the part where they went to find Mari's family Mirai would have done the same thing if she wasn't seeing her brother since that is what she wanted to do so could be explained as her subconscious mind wanting to find Mari's family. Also if you pay close attention to the part where the house was collapsing the area where Mirai and Itsuki were was starting to collapse so she would have moved even without her brother there. Mirai has probably been to Yuuki's class before so would know where it is and Itsuki told her about the journal so she would want it as a memory of Yuuki.
Imaginary friends are not things that normal teens create imo. You would need a psych diagnosis to create one as mentioned in your reference.

The "normal" way out is for ghost Yuuki to be there for Mirai. Any other way would require this title to go on past 11 ep and involves psych therapy for Mirai imo. Ep. 11 is the final episode after all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by golthin View Post
Without getting into med stuff, the details that you pointed out make look more like it is a ghost than an imaginary Yuuki. He kept disappearing so people wouldn't stop Mirai because they thought she was crazy. He stayed around only for Mari and at the end for his friend when he was ready to mov on. Also, in the truck ride yuuki was trying to see how Mirai would react if he told her the truth.
When he disappeared at the school and she got upset, he returned and was looking a little sad. He continued to challenge her during this episode using his friend until she was ready to accept the bad news imo.
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Old 2009-09-12, 21:11   Link #1057
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Wait.

Yuuki has now become a ghost by democratic vote?



Wating for the final episode. Every saga has an end ...
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Old 2009-09-12, 23:08   Link #1058
Ascaloth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama View Post
I love how some people are clearly being totally fair with this show. Whatever, if this is what they want...it's just a bloody damn shame, especially now when we're starting to get people complaining of it dimishing their enjoyment of the show such that they can no longer take part in the thread. You'd even think with the sheer bloodlust that people have been going at it over this one issue that expectations would have dropped a little over the course of the last few weeks and things would even out a little in how people approach the show, but nope. It all just adds credence to my belief some people just really want to label this show a failure in a bigger they are harder they fall sort of endeavour. Me, I always take the approach that gets me the most enjoyment out of the show if it's offered, which is why I still pick delusion over ghost until proven otherwise because it fits more with the style of the show prior to it and means I get to puzzle over the possible symbolism of it, which to me is fun. If she's a ghost when then frankly that's stupid, and since I clearly heard the words "I am dead" and not "I am a ghost" it's obvious that given the option of free interpretation I'll pick the one I think best fits with the narrative instead of the one that gets me bitching endlessly about how the show is apparently a trainwreck (Not that I give any sort of weight to Trollscaloth's opinion beyond using it as an example given his tendency for only "criticizing" [stretching the definition of the word here] shows that aren't called Haruhi). I guess that's just the way I am.
I find it very telling that every other post you made in this thread alone is made with the intention to gripe about other people's opinions, while at the same time completely failing to understand where the others are coming from. In addition, you also tend to engage in ego-stroking by repeatedly stating your own supposedly more reasonable "accepting" attitude in order to contrast yourself from the perceived "critical majority", and for some reason you seem to feel threatened enough to try and put me down whenever I say anything, even when I wasn't actually trying to argue with your viewpoints, and by poisoning the well against me no less.

So, let's see....in order, points 3, 7, 1, 4, 6 and 9 of the DSM-IV criteria for NPD. Seriously, you've been doing all the above for so long and so repetitively, it makes Endless Eight look fresh by comparison.

I would ask you to forebear from such destructive behaviour and actually try to engage in constructive debate for once, but I have little hope of it being possible for you.

Quote:
We don't know that he's a ghost. See my post on the previous page. At no point did the show ever come and state flat out that he was a ghost versus a delusion unless some people watched some really bad subs or something. Even then the actual Japanese dialogue as I mentioned should show you the way. It's still ambiguous, but unless they're really foolish in how they unveil this in the last episode then I'm going for delusion conjured up by Mirai to help her cope.
Actually, the way this is going, I don't even think Bones is ever going to make clear just which it is. It's quite likely that at the end, "Yuuki" is just going to 'poof' with never any confirmation which of these "he" is, with only our own speculation to serve as possible clues as to the specific type of existence he is currently.
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Old 2009-09-12, 23:17   Link #1059
passin'gass
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Episode 10
So...he's dead. Whether ghost or hallucination is still up in the air.

If he's imaginary, does that mean, in the same Mirai Vision (wish-fulfillment vein), that Mari's real mom and kid are those two bodies in the gym, and her finding them alive with the help of Yuki is a schizo-fueled delusion of Happy Ending?

If he's a ghost, then the two are indeed alive & relatively well.

Caveat:
Spoiler:
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Old 2009-09-13, 02:03   Link #1060
Veritas
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During my perusal of this thread, and most things regarding anime lately, the words of a wise maxim kept going through my head. Here they are, adjusted for this situation:

"If you care if Yuuki's a ghost or mirage and want it backed up with facts (lalala) Then repeat to yourself 'It's just a show, I should really just relax.' It's Tokyo Magnitude 8.0(thousaaaaaand)."
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