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Old 2009-09-13, 02:58   Link #1061
FlareKnight
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To be honest by the end I couldn't feel any sadness for Yuki's death. Rather it was a feeling of "thank god Mirai finally got the truth thrown in her face." It's been kind of creepy watching her talk to someone that isn't there for a few episodes. Don't even want to know what the people riding on that truck were thinking while she was talking to herself. Probably "poor kid...don't stare".

The whole ghost or delusion thing might not even be really answered depending how they handle his departure in the next episode. If he vanishes could just read it as his spirit moving on or Mirai's mind erasing him. At any rate the sad thing is informing the people that Mirai has told that Yuuki the truth. Talk about bringing up their hopes and then crashing them. Especially to a friend of his like Itsuki who was probably worried and now will have to deal with having his hopes dashed.

The whole disappearing thing could go either way. Either Yuki's spirit was trying to protect Mirai from having a breakdown by disappearing so people wouldn't comment on her talking to someone that wasn't there. Or Mirai's mind realized that those around her would crush her delusion if Yuki was still there so she made him vanish. Either way at some level she realized he was gone which caused the small breakdowns in the classroom.

Just feels like any time I consider one path the other has a valid point. With the backpack the ghost could have realized that Mirai left it behind and fabricated a new one. Along with Mirai leaving it behind and her mind changing the delusion to having him carry it. The Mari situation could have had the ghost knowing they were alive and so pushing to search. Or Mirai's mind didn't want to accept another loss so she used the delusion to push herself to keep looking and lucked out.

Anyways just glad there will be no more thinking Yuki is still alive. Though I feel for Itsuki who will probably have to deal with some more of Mirai talking to herself and falling apart.
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Old 2009-09-13, 03:48   Link #1062
Kaioshin Sama
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ascaloth View Post

I find it very telling that every other post you made in this thread alone is made with the intention to gripe about other people's opinions, while at the same time completely failing to understand where the others are coming from. In addition, you also tend to engage in ego-stroking by repeatedly stating your own supposedly more reasonable "accepting" attitude in order to contrast yourself from the perceived "critical majority", and for some reason you seem to feel threatened enough to try and put me down whenever I say anything, even when I wasn't actually trying to argue with your viewpoints, and by poisoning the well against me no less.

So, let's see....in order, points 3, 7, 1, 4, 6 and 9 of the DSM-IV criteria for NPD. Seriously, you've been doing all the above for so long and so repetitively, it makes Endless Eight look fresh by comparison.

I would ask you to forebear from such destructive behaviour and actually try to engage in constructive debate for once, but I have little hope of it being possible for you.

Actually, the way this is going, I don't even think Bones is ever going to make clear just which it is. It's quite likely that at the end, "Yuuki" is just going to 'poof' with never any confirmation which of these "he" is, with only our own speculation to serve as possible clues as to the specific type of existence he is currently.
And your basing this theory on.......??? So I wonder....are we ever going to get any real positions on the show from you or are we just going to get cliches and wiki quoting? That's also part of why I added that particular aside and ridiculed the comment. Why? Because going around proudly proclaiming that you'd like to unleash the inner Trollscaloth in this thread like you did last week and using cliches to describe the show instead of actually describing why you felt a certain way about it's execution (which a lot of the critics have had the courtesy to do at the very least) doesn't exactly lead me to believe that you have the noblest of intentions in passing judgement slapping vague inflammatory labels on the show like you are now proclaiming. And seriously you've been doing that for so long that that makes the latest Dynasty Warriors look refreshing by comparison. Anyway last time I checked you didn't seem so interested in a constructive debate. Might I quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ascaloth View Post
Episode 10.

You know what's the difference between this show and True Tears? At least the latter tried to get back to its best before the end. I think this is diving from plotquake straight into trainwreck territory at this point.
Yeah....so why am I supposed to lend that posts content credibility again and how exactly have I been unfair to you here? Were you ever planning on contributing anything beyond that particular piece of copypasta from that other board? Be honest. If so then could you start by actually defining the term "plotquake", because I just did a google search and couldn't even find it on the Urban Dictionary. In fact I only got a few accurate hits for the phrase and funny enough both were by you in describing True Tears. Stating your thoughts clearly about Tokyo Magnitude would be a huge step in me actually lending credibility to your posts if I ever have to reference them again.

Again please tell me if I've been at all unfair here and by all means use all the wiki links you want.
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Old 2009-09-13, 04:55   Link #1063
Ascaloth
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Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama View Post
And your basing this theory on.......???
The very fact of your own posts? Why, are you asking me to state each specific point confirming my diagnosis of your mental condition? Are you really sure that's what you want? Because you know as well as I do that I'm perfectly capable of just that, if only I can be provoked enough to get off my lazy arse.

Quote:
So I wonder....are we ever going to get any real positions on the show from you or are we just going to get cliches and wiki quoting? That's also part of why I added that particular aside and ridiculed the comment. Why? Because going around proudly proclaiming that you'd like to unleash the inner Trollscaloth in this thread like you did last week and using cliches to describe the show instead of actually describing why you felt a certain way about it's execution (which a lot of the critics have had the courtesy to do at the very least) doesn't exactly lead me to believe that you have the noblest of intentions in passing judgement slapping vague inflammatory labels on the show like you are now proclaiming. And seriously you've been doing that for so long that that makes the latest Dynasty Warriors look refreshing by comparison.
Any real positions on the show? Funny how you seem to have conveniently missed out the flowery soliloquies I've waxed on every episode of this show up to....oh, about Episode 7 or so. Because you are right in a sense; I've been finding myself unable to care quite as much about TM8 as I used to ever since the plotquake, and much like TinyRedLeaf, what interest I have left in this series is academic in nature.

But to answer your question, are we going to get any real positions from my own viewpoint on this show? We already have, up to episode 7. Can I write the way I used to about this series? Perhaps, but when I've long lost the mood to do so, and when Sorrow-K pretty much says anything I would have wanted to say, I seriously can't be arsed to duplicate his comments.

"going around proudly proclaiming that you'd like to unleash the inner Trollscaloth in this thread like you did last week" - really? Wow. I didn't realise I was this proactive. Did I really say anything like that in this thread....? Nope, thought not.

"And seriously you've been doing that for so long that that makes the latest Dynasty Warriors look refreshing by comparison." - Really? Wow. Have I been dissing TM8 from the start? I didn't know that either.

So let's see....manufacturing outright lies about me in an attempt at argumentum ad hominem tu quoque, which I guess counts as point 9 of the DSM-IV criteria for NPD, as a reaction borne out of a fit of narcissistic rage in order to cope with the narcissistic injury I caused you with my last post. I wonder if you're even realising that you're shooting yourself in the foot here.

Quote:
If so then could you start by actually defining the term "plotquake", because I just did a google search and couldn't even find it on the Urban Dictionary. In fact I only got a few accurate hits for the phrase and funny enough both were by you in describing True Tears. Stating your thoughts clearly about Tokyo Magnitude would be a huge step in me actually lending credibility to your posts if I ever have to reference them again.
What do I give a damn about saying anything that's credible enough for your standards? If point 3 of the DSM-IV for NPD is anything to go by, it's impossible for me to state my opinion in a way that you would accept unless it's exactly the same as yours, because the only response you would give to any points I could make are -surprise, surprise- "I disagree". I merely stated my feelings for this series at the current time because I felt like it, and you were the one who decided to try and pick on me even when I was not looking for a debate (and frankly, I don't have time for one at this time). Hell, it wasn't even necessary for you to argue with me; you asked for the scorpion's sting in your hand.

On another note, I'm not surprised you can't find the term "plotquake"; I was the one who coined it for my own uses. So what about it?
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Old 2009-09-13, 05:25   Link #1064
Kaioshin Sama
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ascaloth View Post
The very fact of your own posts? Why, are you asking me to state each specific point confirming my diagnosis of your mental condition? Are you really sure that's what you want? Because you know as well as I do that I'm perfectly capable of just that, if only I can be provoked enough to get off my lazy arse.



Any real positions on the show? Funny how you seem to have conveniently missed out the flowery soliloquies I've waxed on every episode of this show up to....oh, about Episode 7 or so. Because you are right in a sense; I've been finding myself unable to care quite as much about TM8 as I used to ever since the plotquake, and much like TinyRedLeaf, what interest I have left in this series is academic in nature.

But to answer your question, are we going to get any real positions from my own viewpoint on this show? We already have, up to episode 7. Can I write the way I used to about this series? Perhaps, but when I've long lost the mood to do so, and when Sorrow-K pretty much says anything I would have wanted to say, I seriously can't be arsed to duplicate his comments.

"going around proudly proclaiming that you'd like to unleash the inner Trollscaloth in this thread like you did last week" - really? Wow. I didn't realise I was this proactive. Did I really say anything like that in this thread....? Nope, thought not.

"And seriously you've been doing that for so long that that makes the latest Dynasty Warriors look refreshing by comparison." - Really? Wow. Have I been dissing TM8 from the start? I didn't know that either.

So let's see....manufacturing outright lies about me in an attempt at argumentum ad hominem tu quoque, which I guess counts as point 9 of the DSM-IV criteria for NPD, as a reaction borne out of a fit of narcissistic rage in order to cope with the narcissistic injury I caused you with my last post. I wonder if you're even realising that you're shooting yourself in the foot here.



What do I give a damn about saying anything that's credible enough for your standards? If point 3 of the DSM-IV for NPD is anything to go by, it's impossible for me to state my opinion in a way that you would accept unless it's exactly the same as yours, because the only response you would give to any points I could make are -surprise, surprise- "I disagree". I merely stated my feelings for this series at the current time because I felt like it, and you were the one who decided to try and pick on me even when I was not looking for a debate (and frankly, I don't have time for one at this time). Hell, it wasn't even necessary for you to argue with me; you asked for the scorpion's sting in your hand.

On another note, I'm not surprised you can't find the term "plotquake"; I was the one who coined it for my own uses. So what about it?
Yeah that's pretty much exactly what I expected you to reply with. Remind me, why do we ever even bother talking to each other again?
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Old 2009-09-13, 05:33   Link #1065
Ascaloth
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Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama View Post
Yeah that's pretty much exactly what I expected you to reply with. Remind me, why do we ever even bother talking to each other again?
Running away from an argument you cannot win. As I expected. Such behaviour fitting points 1, 3 and 9 of the DSM-IV criteria for NPD aside, who asked you to pick on me when I wasn't even bothering you? You could have saved yourself this attack on what's left of your poor reputation if only you could've resisted making the jab on me.
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Old 2009-09-13, 06:26   Link #1066
Kaioshin Sama
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ascaloth View Post
Running away from an argument you cannot win. As I expected. Such behaviour fitting points 1, 3 and 9 of the DSM-IV criteria for NPD aside, who asked you to pick on me when I wasn't even bothering you? You could have saved yourself this attack on what's left of your poor reputation if only you could've resisted making the jab on me.
See it's funny, because you still haven't picked up on anything I've said and continue down a frankly pointless line of discussion. It's quite telling that upon me asking you what theory you were basing how Bones will handle the final episodes on you would immediately assume I was referring to the DSM-IV thing, which a) I don't care about cause it's off topic and b) I doubt anybody who comes to this thread cares about since I think that if they wanted to see a real argument (doubtful even though people watch when it happens) they'd want it to be about the show. And yet you keep "contributing" it for some reason, and hence I wonder why you are still talking about it....

Well, it's been special as always, but obviously since I can't possibly steer the conversation back to being about the show when it comes to you I have to again wonder why we are still talking here. If you really think we should be talking about DSM-IV classifications then fantastic, PM me about it and what you want to argue about that is apparently a zero-sum game (and so important) and we'll have a blast, but since you yourself admit you have nothing else to contribute about this episode then we don't need to be talking anymore.

Oh and:



Again when a person says something like that (even if it gets deleted) they lose a lot of credibility with me and I make a note to doubt their intentions in the future. It's nothing personal, just policy.
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Old 2009-09-13, 06:34   Link #1067
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Off-topic:

Do me a favor, both of you: Kaioshin and Ascaloth.... Take this argument over PM. If you continue in this fashion in the open forum, there will be no other choice but for a moderator to step in. And it won't be pretty.

If I may also be blunt with an observation, you two are terrible at utilizing second-person (You) in any argument. Your respective posts sound way more personal than it should be. You two are needlessly making everyone else uncomfortable in the thread as well with how you are going back and forth. Not healthy for any good discussion or argument. Please give it a rest already.
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Old 2009-09-13, 07:02   Link #1068
Kaioshin Sama
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So then, now that that's settled I was hoping I could get the topic back to what I was really hoping to talk about now. The odd exchange got me wondering, and I'd kind of like to hear from others, how do people really see this ending next week? I don't mean based off of low or high expectations or whatever, but simply based on what we've seen happen so far and where it seems to be going.

Right now I've got Mirai having a brief reconciliation with the fact that Yuuki is dead and him turning out to be a part of her psyche that helps her cope with the realization and loss, followed by her reuniting with her parents. Then a year later during a memorial for the disaster victims Mirai is with her parents and they are visiting Yuuki's grave and Mari is also there with Hina to pay their respects and they do some catching up and talk about life and where there's is headed. They then go to Odaiba bridge (where Yuuki always wanted to visit again) to look at it being rebuilt and that's where the series ends, on the note of a slow recovery, but a recovery nonetheless that ties in both to the overall disaster, and to the personal one that has permeated the series as a whole.
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Old 2009-09-13, 12:17   Link #1069
Zwei
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I R confused.

So Yuki was dead all this time? I got a feeling something was strange, but didn't Mari notice he was dead? Did he die when she was dreaming he died at the hospital or after? I always kinda forget half the episode I watch last week. -.-

EDIT: Nevermind, just finished the episode. I wonder what the cause of his death was, though?
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Old 2009-09-13, 12:21   Link #1070
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hey guise this show sucks so much lets go watch one of the other super original erogame moeblob harem shows everyone loves

Seriously though, what's it with the hate. I mean, it's not an outstanding show by any means, but it's not bad either. It was a bit clichéd and tedious at first, but these latter episodes were better. I'm not entirely comfortable with how they handled Yuuki's death, but it wasn't a bad approach to take, either--just not my personal preference.

PS: Knowing the Japanese, Yuuki in these latter episodes is not only meant to be Mirai's delusion but also Yuuki's spirit/will/whatever. The fact that he was the reason Mirai and Itsuki survived at the end when the house collapsed is more than proof of this. Ghosts and stuff in Japanese narrative often are represented ambiguously like this.
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Old 2009-09-13, 12:42   Link #1071
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Quote:
hey guise this show sucks so much lets go watch one of the other super original erogame moeblob harem shows everyone loves
Because all shows other than TM8 are "erogame moeblob harem" shows.

Quote:
Seriously though, what's it with the hate.
Read the past ten pages or so
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Old 2009-09-13, 13:10   Link #1072
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Because all shows other than TM8 are "erogame moeblob harem" shows.
Well I guess my statement should've been "hey guise anime is real life and this show has a ghost in it so it sucks lets go watch discovery channel amirite"

By the way, I'm just kidding. I understand why you feel "cheated", what I don't understand is why you thought this was going to turn out differently in the first place. The documentary part in itself is the effect of the earthquake, and the rest is just fluff to make it a worthwhile story to tell. Otherwise there would be no drama, because real life is most of times not as dramatic.

And really, if you're a regular anime viewer and didn't expect the Japanese to sprinkle their metaphors and storytelling with (a sometimes subtle) spirituality, well, I guess you should watch more anime?
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Old 2009-09-13, 13:32   Link #1073
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Originally Posted by Zwei View Post
I R confused.

So Yuki was dead all this time? I got a feeling something was strange, but didn't Mari notice he was dead? Did he die when she was dreaming he died at the hospital or after? I always kinda forget half the episode I watch last week. -.-

EDIT: Nevermind, just finished the episode. I wonder what the cause of his death was, though?
If you noticed at the end of the episode they show the New broadcast saying that a lot of people are suffering from "crush syndrome" or "crash syndrome". It was that while he was under the debris, his muscles being crushed in the building poisoned his liver and without a check up it took a while before it made an impact in his system. I wonder if the girl that was trapped with Yuuki survived. It seems a lot of people were dying due to it.

The only case i have seen this before was in an episode of Grace's anatomy where a guy was dared by his friend to get in a batch of fast drying cement. The guy was compressed by the cement and he seemed fine, but as soon as they started removing the cement, the poisoned blood started to shock his system.
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Old 2009-09-13, 13:39   Link #1074
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Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
I understand why you feel "cheated"..... documentary part....sprinkle their metaphors and storytelling with (a sometimes subtle) spirituality....
Again, I'm seeing a severe lack of understanding the criticism of the past ten or so pages. My advice is to read through the actual complaints instead of reading how other people characterize the complaints. Maybe a closer look at some of the detailed posts leading up to and on page 46 would help. I'd say more but it seems like being in this thread anymore is like walking through a negrep minefield for even the most harmless critical posts.
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Old 2009-09-13, 13:40   Link #1075
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The documentary part in itself is the effect of the earthquake, and the rest is just fluff to make it a worthwhile story to tell. Otherwise there would be no drama, because real life is most of times not as dramatic.

And really, if you're a regular anime viewer and didn't expect the Japanese to sprinkle their metaphors and storytelling with (a sometimes subtle) spirituality, well, I guess you should watch more anime?
Oh gee, I guess that's why Monster sucked. It didn't have a single moe gun-toting loli in maid costume and also wearing nekomimi to add much-needed fluff. Not to mention, it didn't even have any romance to alleviate the unrelenting despair! The show was so caught up with being "realistic" that it turned out boooooring. Apparently, it forgot that real life is actually very dull and that it is a deadly mistake to make fiction realistic, even when the material could be dealt with better that way.


Spoiler for what I really mean:
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Old 2009-09-13, 13:41   Link #1076
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I, for one, am still not getting it, even after reading the spoiler.
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Old 2009-09-13, 13:49   Link #1077
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I feel that most people would enjoy the show better if they stopped over-analyzing and just watched it as entertainment. I, for one, am not getting white hairs from Yuuki's realistic/unrealistic death argument. ^^
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Old 2009-09-13, 14:04   Link #1078
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Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama View Post
The odd exchange got me wondering, and I'd kind of like to hear from others, how do people really see this ending next week?
The main thing I'm expecting is the following. Mirai and her parents dealing with the loss of Yuki, some more scenes of Mari, and perhaps a time jump.
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Old 2009-09-13, 14:25   Link #1079
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Originally Posted by golthin View Post
If you noticed at the end of the episode they show the New broadcast saying that a lot of people are suffering from "crush syndrome" or "crash syndrome". It was that while he was under the debris, his muscles being crushed in the building poisoned his liver and without a check up it took a while before it made an impact in his system. I wonder if the girl that was trapped with Yuuki survived. It seems a lot of people were dying due to it.
Oh, I see. So he had this "syndrome" since episode 1 but kicked in alot later?
Thousands of people must have died then.
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Old 2009-09-13, 14:37   Link #1080
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I, for one, am still not getting it, even after reading the spoiler.
Damn. Then I guess I'd have to explain further, rather than risk having a joke completely misinterpreted again.

Quite simply, it's a fallacy to suggest that just because a show is anime, it therefore cannot be "realistic". It's an even greater fallacy to suggest that the inability to recognise this supposedly basic "fact" is a result of not watching enough anime, or more accurately, a great enough variety of Japanese animation.

Granted, said "realism" can be a subjective experience, but when even supporters of this show's current direction have to debate whether Yuuki is a ghost or a hallucination, it suggests strongly that, somewhere along the line, the writers had dropped the ball.

It's only a question of how badly they dropped it. If TM8 had stuck to its original premise, I daresay that such confusion wouldn't even have surfaced. Some fans remain adamant in defending the show tooth and nail, as though their very egos depended on it, while others are at least charitable enough to concede that some flaws do exist while pointing out that these blemishes have not damaged their ability to enjoy the show.

In the end, I don't mind either way. I can accept that people have subjective preferences. What I don't like is when people attack others for their opinions instead of addressing the arguments they make.

Earlier in the thread, Jarmel and I had similar disagreements over the supposed effectiveness of the drama and character development in this show. While our points were strongly worded, the debate was kept civil and it did not descend into petty mudslinging. In retrospect, I can even say that he made the stronger points, which I think are worth repeating:

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Originally Posted by Jarmel View Post
I agree we disagree about something that is subjective but than again most of what people argue about is subjective in nature. I'm just voicing my complaints of the series. None of what I have stated is obviously factual in nature except maybe for lack of damage caused by the fall of the Tokyo Tower but meh.
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Now we are getting into the nature of ideal juding and critiquing. There is no perfect way to judge any sort of work. There is no absolute sense of neutrality, everything we do is affected by our own past experiences and I see watching and trying to empathize with people as no different. How could I possibly understand what a young female teenager is going through in a natural disaster yet alone her own personal set of problems? As a male we really don't care where we go to the bathroom yet for a female that is a much more serious problem. Judging or evaluating a piece of work is always based on a set of biases even if you aren't aware of them. Obviously you want to see a show or book from different angles however to ignore your own reaction is ignorance.

If we were only grading something on how other people reacted or think of a piece then every show would be graded as a 10. Perfect example is Gurren Lagann where some people hated it for its lack of reason while others loved it for the exact same thing. This is where the balance of personal opinion vs general quality come into play. Any show is bad only for the individual watching it, to say otherwise means thinking that your opinion is worth more than it actually is.
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Never did I say to completely focus on your own opinion. I said that nobody can fully or truly understand another person's point of view. We should try to be as neutral as possible and see things from different aspects but we should definitely calculate in our own experiences when watching something.
To follow from Jarmel's points, everything that the naysayers have brought up over the last few episodes were their honest, if subjective, opinions. Rather than addressing the flaws we point out, we have been repeatedly accused of bringing "destructive" criticism into the discussion, in some attempt to "crucify" the show.

Given such ugliness, I would have much preferred to stay out of this thread indefinitely but, hey, since WanderingKnight decided to make a rare appearance, I thought it would be remiss of me not to seize the chance to poke fun at him while he's around.

Of course, we could all make our lives a lot easier by simply refusing to think. That way, we wouldn't run the risk of over-analysing any show we watch...

...but, then, that would be an insult to both you and a show's creators, don't you think?
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