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Old 2009-09-13, 14:43   Link #1081
Vexx
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Originally Posted by Slice of Life View Post
Wait.

Yuuki has now become a ghost by democratic vote?
I don't know what people think the difference is... ghost vs delusion --- both are just projections of a distraught human memory.

Last edited by Vexx; 2009-09-13 at 15:06.
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Old 2009-09-13, 16:02   Link #1082
Slice of Life
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Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
Seriously though, what's it with the hate.
While I see a lot of hate in this thread, its not directed at the anime but at people.

Sadly, your comments ...
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Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
lets go watch one of the other super original erogame moeblob harem shows everyone loves
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Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
I guess you should watch more anime?
.. fit right in.

(More anime? Even more? . Can you give me a ballpark figure?)

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Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
lbut these latter episodes were better.
No, you think they are better. Please allow people to disagree. The first episodes made me impatiently wait for the next. I even found the robotaku episode that nobody else seemed to like interesting. The story of the demented women and her dead grandchildren was both psychologically much more sound and made me cry. Yuuki's death and Mirai's madness never did the trick and my emotional response by now can best described as "amused distantness". A shame. Mari's college and the frog man could have had a story to tell ... chance missed. Instead a sequence of makeshift tricks to hide what everybody knows who doesn't live under a rock.

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Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
And really, if you're a regular anime viewer and didn't expect the Japanese to sprinkle their metaphors and storytelling with (a sometimes subtle) spirituality, well, I guess you should watch more anime?
Not the cultural card again. I've read intriguing critique from at least three continents here, and from people with sufficient exposure to anime tropes on top of that. Why does the whole globe misinterpret this show in the same way, I wonder ...

EDIT: Vexx, I don't see the difference either. At least as long as the whole affair is handled in the way it is we could as well ask how many Yuuki's can dance on the point of a needle. And that's exactly why I was surprised that people felt the need to stray from the established theory in the first place.
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Last edited by Slice of Life; 2009-09-13 at 16:20.
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Old 2009-09-13, 16:17   Link #1083
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I read your points, TinyRedLeaf, and while I, on an academic level, agree for the most part, I still don't see why the debate over whether or not Yuki was a ghost or a figment of Mirai's imagination would actually be proof positive of the anime writers having "dropped the ball". If anything, it's a clever misdirection that could be leaving up to the viewer the formulation of their own conclusions - there are verifiable claims of hallucinations and ghost sightings all over the place and, while it's up to an individual sense of belief to actually (pardon the pun) believe in such things, you cannot simply disregard them; and that, at least IMHO, is what's going on, here.

Personally, I'd have no problem if they went with the ghost route - I wouldn't see it as a subversion of the anime's themes, as I never adhered firmly to the docu-drama camp. But I may very well be alone at that, for I have what mustn't be a very mainstream set of spiritual beliefs (I'm a Kardecist). Conversely, I have no problem with the stress-induced memory block/hallucination, either. Therefore, I see no reason to point to this particular plot point as a series-breaker. Now, was it milked to death? Yes, I think it was - it could have been handled a tad better. But it's hardly a situation where I no longer enjoy the show, myself.
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Old 2009-09-13, 19:05   Link #1084
daRAT
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Razajev View Post
The main thing I'm expecting is the following. Mirai and her parents dealing with the loss of Yuki, some more scenes of Mari, and perhaps a time jump.

Mari catching up with Mirai and giving her the backpack (anybody else think Yuuki's ashes are in the backpack)?

I would like a time jump also, I think it would close the series nicely.
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Old 2009-09-13, 19:17   Link #1085
orion
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Originally Posted by golthin View Post
If you noticed at the end of the episode they show the New broadcast saying that a lot of people are suffering from "crush syndrome" or "crash syndrome". It was that while he was under the debris, his muscles being crushed in the building poisoned his liver and without a check up it took a while before it made an impact in his system. I wonder if the girl that was trapped with Yuuki survived. It seems a lot of people were dying due to it.

The only case i have seen this before was in an episode of Grace's anatomy where a guy was dared by his friend to get in a batch of fast drying cement. The guy was compressed by the cement and he seemed fine, but as soon as they started removing the cement, the poisoned blood started to shock his system.
Yuuki died from the sequela of a traumatic head injury and not from CRUSH Syndrome. Don't worry guys I won't go thru it again.

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Originally Posted by daRAT View Post
Mari catching up with Mirai and giving her the backpack (anybody else think Yuuki's ashes are in the backpack)?
Hospitals don't cremate.

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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
I don't know what people think the difference is... ghost vs delusion --- both are just projections of a distraught human memory.
For shame. No spirituality in that statement. What would Luke think?

Spoiler for Return of the Jedi:
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Last edited by orion; 2009-09-13 at 19:38.
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Old 2009-09-13, 19:35   Link #1086
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orion: You didn't even read the link I gave since it says that teens can have imaginary friends but they usually suppress it due to peer pressure. Also if I remember right wasn't Mirai in her first year of middle school which would put her age as 12.

PS. I expect your still going to ignore the facts just like everyone else just so you can have your own opinion.
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Old 2009-09-13, 19:41   Link #1087
orion
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Originally Posted by guenthar View Post
orion: You didn't even read the link I gave since it says that teens can have imaginary friends but they usually suppress it due to peer pressure. Also if I remember right wasn't Mirai in her first year of middle school which would put her age as 12.

PS. I expect your still going to ignore the facts just like everyone else just so you can have your own opinion.
I read your link. It's not a common thing nor would it resolve in 1 episode which is what this series has to do. Nor would an imaginary friend talk away his existence which is what Yuuki has to do in the next episode. If a teen or preteen has one, he/she has a psych problem beyond trauma due to peer pressure imo.

Mirai was in middle school had an active social life with 3 girlfriends and a cellphone. She was not the peer-pressured sort from the first episode. She was a spoiled middle class princess imo.

You can believe what you want. It's not like this show is following reality to the letter.
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Old 2009-09-13, 19:50   Link #1088
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
I don't know what people think the difference is... ghost vs delusion --- both are just projections of a distraught human memory.
i doubt that this argument will EVER be solved until the director comes straight and confirm either one. I am just going by how Yuuki has been acting. If he was a creation of Mirai imagination, I don't think he would have known things he knew. Anyway, ghost or imagination, both are sad. My biggest clue is the choice of words, "boku shin jatan da" (what Yuuki actually said) instead of "boku shin jata". The first one would be more appropiate of a first person, while the second would be more appropiate if yuuki was a creation of Mirai imagination.
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Old 2009-09-13, 19:52   Link #1089
WanderingKnight
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Quite simply, it's a fallacy to suggest that just because a show is anime, it therefore cannot be "realistic". It's an even greater fallacy to suggest that the inability to recognise this supposedly basic "fact" is a result of not watching enough anime, or more accurately, a great enough variety of Japanese animation.
I never said it cannot be realistic. Storytelling can be very realistic while still being dramatic. It is, however, sort of hard to do most of times--only the best masterpieces ever get to do something like that. Real life, we like it or not, is not dramatic in the sense we're used to seeing drama represented--which is the sort of drama most stories end up catering to because we like to see stuff we don't see in real life since it, well, keeps us entertained.

What I was just doing is being apologetic for the show sprinkling a bit of melodrama over the whole thing instead of keeping it documentary.

Quote:
Again, I'm seeing a severe lack of understanding the criticism of the past ten or so pages. My advice is to read through the actual complaints instead of reading how other people characterize the complaints. Maybe a closer look at some of the detailed posts leading up to and on page 46 would help. I'd say more but it seems like being in this thread anymore is like walking through a negrep minefield for even the most harmless critical posts.
Er, I'm looking at your last post right now and you are clearly complaining about the turn from a realistic documentary into a melodrama of sorts. If you don't understand how I addressed that point in my previous post, please tell me and I'll attempt to clarify.

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No, you think they are better. Please allow people to disagree. The first episodes made me impatiently wait for the next. I even found the robotaku episode that nobody else seemed to like interesting. The story of the demented women and her dead grandchildren was both psychologically much more sound and made me cry. Yuuki's death and Mirai's madness never did the trick and my emotional response by now can best described as "amused distantness". A shame. Mari's college and the frog man could have had a story to tell ... chance missed. Instead a sequence of makeshift tricks to hide what everybody knows who doesn't live under a rock.
Eh, SoL, with all due respect, I don't believe I need to preface every sentence I write with "in my opinion". Not only it would be redundant, it would be insulting the intelligence of anyone who reads my posts.

Tbh I wasn't much interested in the real life part because the characters themselves stopped being original in episode 3 or something.

Quote:
Not the cultural card again. I've read intriguing critique from at least three continents here, and from people with sufficient exposure to anime tropes on top of that. Why does the whole globe misinterpret this show in the same way, I wonder ...
I play the cultural card because ghosts never really being "physical" ghosts but a "force" of sorts is a pretty common thing in anime and Japanese storytelling overall. I'm not saying it's good though. I really don't like it most of times, and I didn't like it much either here. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist or that we should pretend the influence of culture is irrelevant.

I insist, the show is not too good, but it's not that bad either.

(PS: ...in my opinion).
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Last edited by WanderingKnight; 2009-09-13 at 20:04.
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Old 2009-09-13, 20:09   Link #1090
Theowne
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
Er, I'm looking at your last post right now and you are clearly complaining about the turn from a realistic documentary into a melodrama of sorts.
You must be reading some other thread. I'm reading my post and all I see is my comment that the show's "plotquake" (as described by Ascaloth) felt too artificial for me and made me detached from having an emotional investment in the show. Maybe you're getting confused reading my comments on believability of Mirai's psychological condition", which was a response to earlier posts claiming it was a normal occurence (which I don't believe it is). TM8 was never a "realistic documentary".

What I find kind of funny is the way this term "documentary" keeps coming up as if its a common complaint, yet I can't actually remember any people on the critical side actually bringing it up in their comments. What's the point in debating a point that was never made?
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Old 2009-09-13, 20:13   Link #1091
WanderingKnight
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Eh, perhaps it's just my interpretation of the whole series. The thing seemed like it wanted to keep it more realistic at first, and then jumped into the melodrama of Yuuki's death. Which I didn't find it was a bad choice really, perhaps it was not optimally handled.

But really, perhaps all it boils down to is that I really didn't get too involved in the show from the first episodes. The first one was good but then it went a bit downhill.

Might be my mood also. Winter is always a time of gloom for me so who knows. Also I've been pretty on and off from this series and anime in general so it probably contributed to my distantness from it, too.

PS: Yeah, rereading SoL's post I find that it's simply a case of "I didn't like it much in the first place so who cares".
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Old 2009-09-13, 20:19   Link #1092
Slice of Life
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Originally Posted by orion View Post
Hospitals don't cremate.
More importantly, they wouldn't hand over somebody's ash to his barely teenage sister.

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Eh, SoL, with all due respect, I don't believe I need to preface every sentence I write with "in my opinion", because, well, it would be kinda redundant.
In a pair of posts where the former start with the suggestion to watch some erogame moeblob anime instead and the latter ends with the conclusion that people lack expertise because they haven't watched enough anime it's not redundant at all. It's not easy to decide what you consider opinion and what you consider fact.
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Old 2009-09-13, 20:20   Link #1093
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Meh, I need to get used to posting around here again, lately most of what I say online and in RL should be taken with a huge amount of good humour and heightened sarcasm and joke sensors or it would be grossly misunderstood.
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Old 2009-09-13, 20:22   Link #1094
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Meh, I need to get used to posting around here again, lately most of what I say online and in RL should be taken with a huge amount of good humour and heightened sarcasm and joke sensors or it would be grossly misunderstood.
Vote for sarcasm tags today!
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Old 2009-09-13, 20:23   Link #1095
orion
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Originally Posted by Slice of Life View Post

In a pair of posts where the former start with the suggestion to watch some erogame moeblob anime instead and the latter ends with the conclusion that people lack expertise because they haven't watched enough anime it's not redundant at all. It's not easy to decide what you consider opinion and what you consider fact.
I thought the erogame moeblob part was a joke.
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Old 2009-09-13, 20:31   Link #1096
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I originally speculated awhile ago that Yuuki's backpack contained his personal belongings, his official death certificate, and maybe his ashes. I know that quite a few commenters had stated that hospitals don't do cremations, and under normal times they don't.

But, after the Kobe quake and the Asian Tsunami the Japanese government decided that their current funeral/mortuary system would be unable to handle the deaths of large amounts of citizens that might occur in those situations. So, they decided to look at options to handle mass deaths such as the possibilities of mass/quick cremations.

So, with TM 8.0 supposedly taking placing in 2011 and the area having experienced over 360,000 deaths I think that normal Shinto/Buddhist funeral rites would be waived in favor of some national Shinto/Buddhist memorial ceremony held at a later date.

My blog posts on TM 8.0 featuring rumor, speculation, and innuendo.
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Old 2009-09-13, 20:32   Link #1097
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I just caught this:

Quote:
Given such ugliness, I would have much preferred to stay out of this thread indefinitely but, hey, since WanderingKnight decided to make a rare appearance, I thought it would be remiss of me not to seize the chance to poke fun at him while he's around.
Yah, I've been pretty off the boards lately. Grossly overworked in the last few months and it doesn't seem to be stopping anytime soon. Might also contribute to my increased sarcasm, but I want to assure you that I wasn't being serious with the "go watch erogame moeblob harems instead" joke (which, er, really wasn't supposed to mean that. It was supposed to mean that this show is better than the average anime, ie, "erogame moeblob harem").

Quote:
Of course, we could all make our lives a lot easier by simply refusing to think. That way, we wouldn't run the risk of over-analysing any show we watch...

...but, then, that would be an insult to both you and a show's creators, don't you think?
Believe me I've used my head when watching this series. There really wasn't much behind it in the first episodes, so at least the cheap melodrama gave me something to be entertained about I guess.
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Old 2009-09-13, 20:48   Link #1098
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Originally Posted by BetoJR View Post
I read your points, TinyRedLeaf, and while I, on an academic level, agree for the most part, I still don't see why the debate over whether or not Yuki was a ghost or a figment of Mirai's imagination would actually be proof positive of the anime writers having "dropped the ball". If anything, it's a clever misdirection that could be leaving up to the viewer the formulation of their own conclusions - there are verifiable claims of hallucinations and ghost sightings all over the place and, while it's up to an individual sense of belief to actually (pardon the pun) believe in such things, you cannot simply disregard them; and that, at least IMHO, is what's going on, here.
What Slice of Life said:
"...as long as the whole affair is handled in the way it is we could as well ask how many Yuuki's can dance on the point of a needle. And that's exactly why I was surprised that people felt the need to stray from the established theory in the first place."


Let me put it this way: As a melodrama, TM8 works very well, in the same way that newspapers and advertisers know that pictures of cute babies and animals always manage to draw readers to a story; in the same way that politicians know that they look very good on TV when kissing babies and shaking hands enthusiastically while on the campaign trail.

These are very well-known, tried-and-tested devices for eliciting positive responses from readers and viewers. Effective though they are, the use of such devices are hardly innovative or original. Worse, the use of such devices can be outright cynical, especially when they are used to cover well-known deficiencies in a product or a person's character.

So, am I surprised to see as much positive reaction to TM8 as they are negative ones? No. Because there are certainly people who enjoy melodrama and, in that sense, this show delivers in spades. Does this make them somehow less worthy than the other group of viewers who had reasonably been expecting some kind of docu-drama instead? Of course not.

It was just a case of people having vastly different expectations as they entered the show. And TM8, I must insist, shoulders a great bulk of the blame for this. If it had been intended to be a melodrama from the very start, then it sure had plenty of viewers fooled.

The same way that many reasonable people are easily fooled into thinking that schmuck-of-a-politician must really be a nice guy because, hey look, he loves babies.

People generally don't like being manipulated, especially not in such obvious ways.
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Old 2009-09-13, 20:49   Link #1099
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Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
Oh gee, I guess that's why Monster sucked. It didn't have a single moe gun-toting loli in maid costume and also wearing nekomimi to add much-needed fluff. Not to mention, it didn't even have any romance to alleviate the unrelenting despair! The show was so caught up with being "realistic" that it turned out boooooring. Apparently, it forgot that real life is actually very dull and that it is a deadly mistake to make fiction realistic, even when the material could be dealt with better that way.


Spoiler for what I really mean:
Funny you meantion Monster as a supposedly realistic shows; specially when that show had total bullshit such as the Nina hypnosis plot-device.
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Old 2009-09-13, 20:54   Link #1100
orion
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Originally Posted by old school anime fan View Post
I originally speculated awhile ago that Yuuki's backpack contained his personal belongings, his official death certificate, and maybe his ashes. I know that quite a few commenters had stated that hospitals don't do cremations, and under normal times they don't.

But, after the Kobe quake and the Asian Tsunami the Japanese government decided that their current funeral/mortuary system would be unable to handle the deaths of large amounts of citizens that might occur in those situations. So, they decided to look at options to handle mass deaths such as the possibilities of mass/quick cremations.

So, with TM 8.0 supposedly taking placing in 2011 and the area having experienced over 360,000 deaths I think that normal Shinto/Buddhist funeral rites would be waived in favor of some national Shinto/Buddhist memorial ceremony held at a later date.

My blog posts on TM 8.0 featuring rumor, speculation, and innuendo.
Except that someone has to pay for the cremation, claim the body. I didn't see Mari stepping up to the plate to hand over her credit card. If the body is unclaimed then someone has to bury etc. but Yuuki wasn't cold yet for 24 hours. They have at least one live relative so a source of payment is assured by attacking the estate of the family via the living relative imo. So no need for the quickie mass burial in this case imo.

----

Speaking of Monster, wasn't the foreign kids quite cute?
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