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Old 2013-06-11, 21:10   Link #61
amaterasu4
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It really looks like Square could have made a better Sora but they wanted him more cartoony to fit with the Disney cast. Still, I hope we a new trailer with new content in a short time because it looked like KH2 in HD.
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Old 2013-06-11, 21:36   Link #62
Von Himmel
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Can't believe she wasted a question on "Will we actually see Kingdom Hearts in KH3?"

We've seen it three friggin times!
The real kingdom hearts is hidden IIRC because of the keyblade war. The kingdom hearts we've seen so far is not the real kingdom hearts.
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Old 2013-06-11, 23:00   Link #63
Shadow5YA
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Originally Posted by Von Himmel View Post
The real kingdom hearts is hidden IIRC because of the keyblade war. The kingdom hearts we've seen so far is not the real kingdom hearts.
Actually, I'm pretty sure Aqua found it at the end of her extra story in Birth By Sleep Final Mix.

Xehanort tried to construct a pathway to it multiple times though.

There's also the fact that the story has changed multiple times with every new spinoff after KH2...
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Old 2013-06-11, 23:08   Link #64
Von Himmel
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No I remember he said it explicitly that it's not the real kingdom hearts in 3D..but now I'm not so sure. the one from BBS kinda fail at summoning it. There's also the fact that there are couple of different Kingdom Hearts throughout the series, which might implies that it's not the real kingdom hearts back from before keyblade war but only something that Xehanort created.
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According to Nomura in Director's Secret Report XIII, the differing colors of Kingdom Hearts imply the nature of its assemblage. The Kingdom Hearts made by Organization XIII, glowing yellow, was assembled from the "hearts of men", meaning people's hearts were compiled into it. In Kingdom Hearts Birth by Sleep, the χ-blade unlocked Kingdom Hearts from "the hearts of worlds", glowing blue, meaning the hearts of entire worlds were assembled for its creation.
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Old 2013-06-11, 23:33   Link #65
Shadow5YA
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Originally Posted by Von Himmel View Post
No I remember he said it explicitly that it's not the real kingdom hearts in 3D..but now I'm not so sure. the one from BBS kinda fail at summoning it. There's also the fact that there are couple of different Kingdom Hearts throughout the series, which might implies that it's not the real kingdom hearts back from before keyblade war but only something that Xehanort created.
Or again... the story has become so convoluted because its nature has changed with every installment.

Remember when the final boss of KH1 was the one and only Ansem?

Then like as if it was Bleach or some other weekly shonen jump manga, the story is "expanded" by retrofitting some details into old events. Oh wait, this guy isn't really Ansem, it's actually some other guy using his name despite there being no foreshadowing in KH1 prior to the reveal. Since there wasn't any proper buildup, let's add a new flashback... (and why the hell were the citizens not aware that "Ansem" looked nothing like their king Ansem the Wise?)

See what I'm getting at? Originally Kingdom Hearts was a very simple, Disney-esque concept: it is the heart of all worlds. To access it, you need to unlock it using a Key(blade), comprised of the Seven Princesses of pure Hearts. Then the "key" needed was changed to the Chi-blade in Birth By Sleep. Then we learn that all the past attempts at accessing Kingdom Hearts by "Ansem" and Xemnas were fake/failed attempts and that the real way to do it is to gather 7 hearts of light and 13 hearts of darkness.


At this point I'm only enjoying the series as a simple hack and slash game.
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Old 2013-06-11, 23:46   Link #66
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I remember Nomura saying in an interview he felt he needed to make the story more complex after the first game or else it wouldn't be able to compete very well against other JRPG franchises. To add on to that he also mentioned he didn't originally expect the franchise to be such a success that it would have warranted sequels, it was supposed to be a one-off thing, so he didn't really have any further plot planned past the first game at the time.

To me at least, that's a good enough excuse for all the plot stuff in this series people complain about lately.
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Old 2013-06-12, 00:04   Link #67
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First KH3 DLC I wanna have, being able to kick any Xehanort that appears in front of me in the nuts, while yelling, THAT'S FOR RUINING ALL SHIPPING IN THIS GAME!
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Old 2013-06-12, 02:21   Link #68
Von Himmel
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First KH3 DLC I wanna have, being able to kick any Xehanort that appears in front of me in the nuts, while yelling, THAT'S FOR RUINING ALL SHIPPING IN THIS GAME!
What shipping? since after that 1.5 cover with NaminexRiku and the fact that she might get revived here, my last complain about any pairings becomes moot

Quote:
Then like as if it was Bleach or some other weekly shonen jump manga, the story is "expanded" by retrofitting some details into old events. Oh wait, this guy isn't really Ansem, it's actually some other guy using his name despite there being no foreshadowing in KH1 prior to the reveal. Since there wasn't any proper buildup, let's add a new flashback... (and why the hell were the citizens not aware that "Ansem" looked nothing like their king Ansem the Wise?)
Kingdom hearts do retcon by creating new story and flashback just like you said. There's even this particular scene in 3D that made me cringed, the part where Xemnas revealed that even Nobody can 'grow' hearts. It's as if Nomura's trying to rationalize how Roxas and his friends being 'human-like' in Days as opposed to no emotional being as Nobody. Also, let's not forget how he changed the story in Re:CoM too

I don't think it's that bad though. The beginning of the story back in KH1 was too simple. The story point of view was observed from Sora's eyes, who obviously rather ignorant about the history and world mechanism as a whole. This leave many things unexplored and that's why the convoluted new story can only be told by creating new story/flashback without proper foreshadowing. The story is still simple too to follow.. well at least until 3D. I just can't understand the mechanism of time travelling and the dreams.

My only complain is that disney world seems to become more and more unimportant throughout the series. Completing the task in each disney world now feels like a chore until Sora reached an original world setting to continue the main plot.
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Old 2013-06-12, 02:55   Link #69
MAX_COLA_POWER!
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Originally Posted by Von Himmel View Post
What shipping? since after that 1.5 cover with NaminexRiku and the fact that she might get revived here, my last complain about any pairings becomes moot



Kingdom hearts do retcon by creating new story and flashback just like you said. There's even this particular scene in 3D that made me cringed, the part where Xemnas revealed that even Nobody can 'grow' hearts. It's as if Nomura's trying to rationalize how Roxas and his friends being 'human-like' in Days as opposed to no emotional being as Nobody. Also, let's not forget how he changed the story in Re:CoM too

I don't think it's that bad though. The beginning of the story back in KH1 was too simple. The story point of view was observed from Sora's eyes, who obviously rather ignorant about the history and world mechanism as a whole. This leave many things unexplored and that's why the convoluted new story can only be told by creating new story/flashback without proper foreshadowing. The story is still simple too to follow.. well at least until 3D. I just can't understand the mechanism of time travelling and the dreams.

My only complain is that disney world seems to become more and more unimportant throughout the series. Completing the task in each disney world now feels like a chore until Sora reached an original world setting to continue the main plot.
I see your point, hmm, can I still kick him in the nuts for taking away our only awesome female keyblade master?
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Old 2013-06-12, 07:11   Link #70
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I'm fine with Lightning as a character in KH3 if I can hit her with the Keyblade, she seriously pissed me off in FF XIII and is one of many reasons i'm never touching the XIII series even at gunpoint, still Kingdom Hearts 3 releasing awesome, give Keysaber (Keyblade + Lightsaber) and have a Star Wars world (preferably ineither the original trilogy or the upcoming trilogy) and I could die happy.
Hey, I like Lightning. She's hot, classy, doesn't take BS from anyone, and is a complete badass. I would love her in KH3 as a party member even if only temp.
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Old 2013-06-12, 08:56   Link #71
Xagzan
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Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
Or again... the story has become so convoluted because its nature has changed with every installment.

Remember when the final boss of KH1 was the one and only Ansem?

Then like as if it was Bleach or some other weekly shonen jump manga, the story is "expanded" by retrofitting some details into old events. Oh wait, this guy isn't really Ansem, it's actually some other guy using his name despite there being no foreshadowing in KH1 prior to the reveal.
There was nothing wrong with this reveal. There was no reason that Ansem in KH1 couldn't have been using a fake name--it didn't contradict anything we had seen in the past. Hardly an outrageous plot twist. I remember everyone being excited about it back in the day.

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Originally Posted by Von Himmel View Post
What shipping? since after that 1.5 cover with NaminexRiku and the fact that she might get revived here, my last complain about any pairings becomes moot



Kingdom hearts do retcon by creating new story and flashback just like you said. There's even this particular scene in 3D that made me cringed, the part where Xemnas revealed that even Nobody can 'grow' hearts. It's as if Nomura's trying to rationalize how Roxas and his friends being 'human-like' in Days as opposed to no emotional being as Nobody.
C'mon now, that actually made sense. Despite the claims of "no heart," we had seen the Nobodies acting inexplicably emotional since they were first introduced in CoM. The reveal in 3D just confirmed what people suspected, and explained the reason for it.

If people are gonna call something convoluted, you should at least cite the actual convoluted parts
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Old 2013-06-12, 11:10   Link #72
Von Himmel
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Well it's more like I'm utterly confused at what's happening in KH:3D. I need to ask many sources to understand the story, but I still can't explain the story after all that Seriously though, I don't know what word to describe the whole story other than 'convoluted'.. maybe confusing is better word? ;_;

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C'mon now, that actually made sense. Despite the claims of "no heart," we had seen the Nobodies acting inexplicably emotional since they were first introduced in CoM. The reveal in 3D just confirmed what people suspected, and explained the reason for it.
Didn't say it doesn't make any sense. I just can't help but to feel like it's a retcon because they change Nobodies emotion from memories like Axel said to actually having a heart. I always thought they did a bad job at writing people with no heart, but then it was revealed that they actually had hearts to begin with. The feeling is like, you know, a story when during the ending scene, a useless guy turns out to be a villain and all his idiotic act was part of his plan type of story?

Not to say I never really thought of that though. From Days we basically saw how emotional Roxas became throughout the story, but I always thought that it's because Roxas was a special case.
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Old 2013-06-12, 12:14   Link #73
Shadow5YA
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There was nothing wrong with this reveal. There was no reason that Ansem in KH1 couldn't have been using a fake name--it didn't contradict anything we had seen in the past. Hardly an outrageous plot twist. I remember everyone being excited about it back in the day.
Leon and the other Radiant Garden citizens clearly identified Xehanort as their king, Ansem, when Ansem the Wise and Xehanort the Heartless look nothing alike.

And even if you don't believe it to be a contradiction, that's still far different from being properly foreshadowed. There was nothing in KH1 to hint that he was an imposter until the reveal itself.

That is not good writing.

Neither is the reveal that Xehanort had the power to time travel from even before the events of KH1 and Birth By Sleep. The whole "you won't remember what happened after you leave" is a shallow coverup so that the knowledge can't be used to contradict earlier games.

There are too many events in the series where I feel that there was no proper build up or hints at all before the big reveal and was only added into the story during a Final Mix revision or the same game when it actually happened.
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Old 2013-06-12, 12:28   Link #74
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Hey, I like Lightning. She's hot, classy, doesn't take BS from anyone, and is a complete badass. I would love her in KH3 as a party member even if only temp.
I'm more of a fan of Ashe in that regard. Personally if there are any female fighters I'd like to see from FF it'd be her and Garnet cause it'll bring Zidane and much needed non-brooding into the equation. It's high time FFIX got some more love, though before that I'd have to decide if I'm actually still interested in KH. Something about the cast shouting "DARKNESS", "NO WAY LIGHT!" over and over really got to me by the end of II among other issues to the point where I felt like I was finishing the game out of obligation. It felt like that game lost a lot in the charm department along with the story, dialogue and pacing feeling excruciatingly convoluted even by Square Enix standards. I'll just wait for more news, but I think I'm suffering FF and KH fatigue from Square Enix or something.
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Old 2013-06-12, 12:59   Link #75
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Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
Leon and the other Radiant Garden citizens clearly identified Xehanort as their king, Ansem, when Ansem the Wise and Xehanort the Heartless look nothing alike.
What? When they did even see Ansem or Xehanort? They weren't with Sora and the others in front of Xehanort's portrait in Radiant Garden, and they weren't at HB in KH1 until after Ansem was gone.

Quote:
And even if you don't believe it to be a contradiction, that's still far different from being properly foreshadowed. There was nothing in KH1 to hint that he was an imposter until the reveal itself.

That is not good writing.
I disagree. Foreshadowing isn't a requirement. Frankly, I get annoyed at foreshadowing, cause usually it's too obvious and I can figure out the twist ahead of time. That is not good writing in my opinion.

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Neither is the reveal that Xehanort had the power to time travel from even before the events of KH1 and Birth By Sleep. The whole "you won't remember what happened after you leave" is a shallow coverup so that the knowledge can't be used to contradict earlier games.
Well, I didn't like the time travel element either so we agree.

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Originally Posted by Von Himmel View Post
Well it's more like I'm utterly confused at what's happening in KH:3D. I need to ask many sources to understand the story, but I still can't explain the story after all that Seriously though, I don't know what word to describe the whole story other than 'convoluted'.. maybe confusing is better word? ;_;
All I'm saying is, the parts you were talking about weren't what I'd call convoluted. Personally, the only things in the story that have actually been difficult to make sense of have been the time travel and what exactly Xehanort's plan was and when. And those were all questions introduced by 3D, which means before that game, I thought most of it fit together quite nicely, considering Nomura didn't have it all planned out from the start.

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Didn't say it doesn't make any sense. I just can't help but to feel like it's a retcon because they change Nobodies emotion from memories like Axel said to actually having a heart. I always thought they did a bad job at writing people with no heart, but then it was revealed that they actually had hearts to begin with.
But that's why it's a good reveal. Instead of bad writing, we get an explanation that makes sense. Let's face it, that "emotion from memories" thing was always a flimsy explanation. It was too hard to believe that all the Organization were such great actors.

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The feeling is like, you know, a story when during the ending scene, a useless guy turns out to be a villain and all his idiotic act was part of his plan type of story?
I'm not sure it's anything like that...The potential to regrow hearts doesn't mean the Org weren't villains. Braig had a heart in BBS and he was a complete asshole.

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Not to say I never really thought of that though. From Days we basically saw how emotional Roxas became throughout the story, but I always thought that it's because Roxas was a special case.
Not just Roxas. Axel, and others showed some semblance of emotion as well. You think Larxene could act that convincingly irritable and pissed off just from memory?
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Old 2013-06-12, 13:08   Link #76
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I'm going to play the Kingdom Hearts games again. I have the first one, second one, and Birth by Sleep. I wonder if I'll miss much in terms of story if I just play those ones by the time 3 comes out. Isn't Dream Drop Distance kind of important? I don't have a 3DS so I can't play that.

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I'm more of a fan of Ashe in that regard. Personally if there are any female fighters I'd like to see from FF it'd be her and Garnet cause it'll bring Zidane and much needed non-brooding into the equation. It's high time FFIX got some more love, though before that I'd have to decide if I'm actually still interested in KH. Something about the cast shouting "DARKNESS", "NO WAY LIGHT!" over and over really got to me by the end of II among other issues to the point where I felt like I was finishing the game out of obligation. It felt like that game lost a lot in the charm department along with the story, dialogue and pacing feeling excruciatingly convoluted even by Square Enix standards. I'll just wait for more news, but I think I'm suffering FF and KH fatigue from Square Enix or something.
Ashe and Garnet were cool, although Ashe seemed like a bitch sometimes. Garnet was depressed in the game at a point in time too. That being said, it would be great if they were in Kingdom Hearts III.
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Old 2013-06-12, 13:39   Link #77
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Ashe and Garnet were cool, although Ashe seemed like a bitch sometimes. Garnet was depressed in the game at a point in time too. That being said, it would be great if they were in Kingdom Hearts III.
Ashe sort of had her fiance die in war and had her homeland occupied by the country that was responsible for his death so it's kind of understandable that she's a bitter revenge obsessed person for a good chunk of the game. As for Garnet it was sort of more she was basics indirectly responsible for the entire continent getting ravaged. I appreciated that the reasons for their actions were crystal clear cause often times Square Enix characters can be downright cryptic and melodramatic with their motivations and desires buried beneath convoluted dialogue and phrases. I think I prefer whoever does the Shakespearian style English scripts for some SE games for this reason. Yeah believe it or not I find the scripts for FFXII, Tactics Ogre and Front Mission V and the like much easier to follow than XIII and the Kingdom Hearts games.

@Von Himmel:

I don't think it's you. As I've argued I think the KH series, especially the latter parts of II, just has a really convoluted dialogue and overall scripting style that is sort of broken up and disjointed and forever peppered with cryptic references and mutterings. Most of it surrounds the Organization XIII and Kingdom Hearts stuff where it feels like in the effort to give them an aura of mystery they rendered these elements intangible. Supposedly though Birth by Sleep fixes and explains a lot that was incomprehensible in I and II and is a lot more straightforward and less disjointed than II but I haven't played so I'm only going by what I've heard.

Last edited by Folenfant; 2013-06-12 at 13:51.
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Old 2013-06-12, 15:53   Link #78
kk2extreme
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I want to see FFXIII cast (mainly Lightning) in KH3
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Old 2013-06-12, 15:58   Link #79
Xagzan
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No, please no. We're already getting three bloody games with those characters, really don't want to see them yet again.

Give us some FF9 characters Nomura. You opened the doors with Vivi. Give us Beatrix.
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Old 2013-06-12, 16:18   Link #80
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^ hell yea, why the hell not other FF characters? kinda sick of lightning, she got in dissidia, let a damn FF9 character get in. the MC is more Sora's age...well height without younginizing them.
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