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Old 2009-03-25, 14:13   Link #61
Goshin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
I don't think is like that, I'll say that those Bodies that are in a Genjutsu (or Killed) only stop feeding info to the others, after all Genjutsus affect the brain, not the vision.

BTW, Im positive that Yahiko Pain by himself is an S-rank (or Kage level).
if u put it that way. then were are more sure that they can't be affected by genjutsu because there chakra is constantly being disrupted by the black rods
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Old 2009-03-25, 14:29   Link #62
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Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
if u put it that way. then were are more sure that they can't be affected by genjutsu because there chakra is constantly being disrupted by the black rods
Ermmmm, Im not following you...
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Old 2009-03-25, 14:39   Link #63
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Originally Posted by Super_Gilby View Post
Ugh... What makes you think that Pain could survive Amaterasu?...
My God, you can't be serious? After what Pain has in his skill set you actually got the nerve to ask this?

"Itachi...Itachi...even in death your fanboys/fangirls never cease to Amaze me!" That's what Madara should have said...

Last edited by Phenomenal; 2009-03-25 at 15:15.
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Old 2009-03-25, 15:03   Link #64
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
^Pain is single-handedly the most powerful creature we have seen thus far.
How can he be most powerful when Naruto is beating him? And don't come with the kyuubi thing, the kyuubi is Naruto's tool, he uses it in one way or another. BTW what we have seen is only half of the kyuubi, Naruto will have the "key" soon.

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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
Tsukuyomi? Only catchs one body, the others come from behind and stab Itachi with their giant black rods.
Jiraiya already beat Pain with a genjutsu, with a genjutsu that is weaker than tsukiyomi. Pain was lucky that he had 3 more bodies and Jiraiya didn't know about those. Pain never used genjutsu, even when he knows that Naruto's weakness is genjtsu, that means that Pain is weak in genjutsu skills. Tsukiyomi would catch all 6 bodies, and if Nagato's mind is linked to the bodies (and that is the case) then it has a chance to catch even Nagato himself, no matter where Nagato is. And Tsukiyomi would not just block movement like Jiraiya's toad song genjutsu but also cause Nagato's mental breakdown, he could end up in a coma just like Kakashi did, and we know that Itachi was going easy on Kakashi because he didn't want to kill him. Pain is a monster like Naruto, the best way to beat him is attack his mind instead of his monstruous 6 bodies, and that's where Itachi was the best. And finally: they cannot stab Itachi because the most important part about tsukiyomi is that it is instantaneous, Itachi looks at you and you end up braindead. Pain's only way to end the mental attack of Itachi would be to cut the connection to the 6 bodies, which means he would lose his 6 bodies and that ends the fight.

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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
Amaterasu? Shinra Tensei that bitch back in Itachi's face.
Amaterasu is not a regular fire jutsu just like tsukiyomi is not a regular genjutsu, both are ultimate powers because they have no weakness of the normal version of the jutsu. Amaterasu not only burns everything to ashes but most importantly it is generated on the spot that Itachi looks at, this means it does not travel from Itachi towards Pain. Therefore it cannot be repelled by Shinra Tensei because it is originated on the 6 Pain bodies that Itachi is looking at.

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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
Susanoo?
Chibaku Tensei the monster, killing Itachi in the process.
By definition Susanoo is godlike, with the yata mirror it can reflect any physical attack, so i really don't see how would Pain be able to attack Itachi's body while it is protected by that supernatural monster.

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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
Nothing Itachi had could compete with Pain. Itachi's abilities are truly great in one vs. few fights, whereas Pain can fight entire armies easily. There is just no point in comparing the two.
Itachi has less mass murdering AOE jutsu but he could also destroy a village. Otherwise why would Sasuke be so sure that he can destroy Konoha. Amaterasu can burn down an entire village, so it's quite useful even if Pain's ultimate shinra tensei is stronger used for mass murdering purpose. Just because we have never seen Itachi fighting to his full power we cannot assume automatically that he is weaker than Pain. Most importantly: using the MS Itachi can control demons, just like Madara controls the kyuubi, and using a tailed demon Itachi can kill huge amount of ninja, if Itachi attacked Konoha using for example the 7 tailed demon then he would be able to reduce Konoha to it's current state.
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Old 2009-03-25, 15:08   Link #65
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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
How can he be most powerful when Naruto is beating him? And don't come with the kyuubi thing, the kyuubi is Naruto's tool, he uses it in one way or another. BTW what we have seen is only half of the kyuubi, Naruto will have the "key" soon.
You're right, Naruto is the most powerful creature we've seen so far, excluding Madara.
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Old 2009-03-25, 15:09   Link #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
How can he be most powerful when Naruto is beating him?
Other way around, Pain is beating Naruto.
Quote:
Jiraiya already beat Pain with a genjutsu, with a genjutsu that is weaker than tsukiyomi. Pain was lucky that he had 3 more bodies and Jiraiya didn't know about those. Pain never used genjutsu, even when he knows that Naruto's weakness is genjtsu, that means that Pain is weak in genjutsu skills
Say this AFTER the battle with Nagato and Pain has fully ended not before.
Quote:
By definition Susanoo is godlike, with the yata mirror it can reflect any physical attack, so i really don't see how would Pain be able to attack Itachi's body while it is protected by that supernatural monster.
Absorb that chakra based monster!!

Quote:
Itachi has less mass murdering AOE jutsu but he could also destroy a village. Otherwise why would Sasuke be so sure that he can destroy Konoha. Amaterasu can burn down an entire village, so it's quite useful even if Pain's ultimate shinra tensei is stronger used for mass murdering purpose. Just because we have never seen Itachi fighting to his full power we cannot assume automatically that he is weaker than Pain.
Itachi's Amateratsu and Susano'o is useless against Pain. genjutsu might be Itachi's only hope but again we will reserve judgment on that subject till this fight is finished.
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Old 2009-03-25, 15:31   Link #67
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Pain > Itachi, seriously how can anyone think Itachi has what it takes to beat pain?
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Old 2009-03-25, 16:01   Link #68
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
Susanoo? Chibaku Tensei the monster, killing Itachi in the process.
Seriously? I know Erosennin1 has said it, and said it better but Susanoo, really? Those six bodies would be sealed away into limbo or wherever it takes them to before Konan had enough time to call the boys from the bar for a pick up of new bodies (also Itachi didn't have enough time to show off his Susanoo, so who knows maybe that's all he/it does?). It is sounding like the Sharingan is the eye to have, it is a lot flashier than Rinnegan I have to admit.

Quote:
Pain > Itachi, seriously how can anyone think Itachi has what it takes to beat pain?
Because it was made clear cut in the beginning that Sharingan > Byakugan > Rinnegan. Just because something is revered doesn't make it the absolute best. By definition evolution (since Sharingan supposedly evolved from Rinnegan) should make it better, or at least adapting to better fit a more turbulent time. Compare a Commodore 64 computer to a 2006 Apple Mac.
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Old 2009-03-25, 16:16   Link #69
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Because it was made clear cut in the beginning that Sharingan > Byakugan > Rinnegan. Just because something is revered doesn't make it the absolute best. By definition evolution (since Sharingan supposedly evolved from Rinnegan) should make it better, or at least adapting to better fit a more turbulent time. Compare a Commodore 64 computer to a 2006 Apple Mac.
Pain kills Itach, with what he has shown, nuff said.

Rinnegan > All.

Rinnegan is the most supreme of doujutsu, kishi own words.
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Old 2009-03-25, 16:17   Link #70
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Originally Posted by Mateus View Post
Because it was made clear cut in the beginning that Sharingan > Byakugan > Rinnegan. Just because something is revered doesn't make it the absolute best. By definition evolution (since Sharingan supposedly evolved from Rinnegan) should make it better, or at least adapting to better fit a more turbulent time. Compare a Commodore 64 computer to a 2006 Apple Mac.
Huh? When did we get that ordering of eye techniques? I thought the manga said the rinnegan was the most powerful of the three. I have wondered if it was only looking at the most basic lvl of the techniques so that a fully developed sharingan like Madara's may have it beat, but to say the Byakugan is better!? How the heck could the ability to see the flow of chakra beat a technique that seems to allow you to have the perspective of every person under your control at once essentially giving you your own personal army.

As far as far as evolution goes, this is Naruto, not the Orgin of the Species. All the branches of elemental techniques and eye techniques were aspects that came from the original ninja who could control them all (and possessed the rinnegan). They were not evolved forms of the original, they were copies of separate aspects of him. Surely the original ninja who could use all the techniques would be more powerful than anyone who branched off from him.
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Old 2009-03-25, 16:23   Link #71
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Its a misconception for people...

Evolution doesn't mean to progress into a much superior being.
If Sharingan evolved from Rinnegan, doesn't automatically mean its superior. It means it has unique traits that got common through generation that can distinguish it away from the common Rinnegan. They might be better at some points, but it might also be lacking too at some of Rinnegan's strong points (because some traits from Rinningan might got lost through generation of breeding/harnessing Sharingan traits)

Now look what you made me do...My head hurts
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Old 2009-03-25, 16:29   Link #72
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Originally Posted by kakakka View Post
Its a misconception for people...

Evolution doesn't mean to progress into a much superior being.
If Sharingan evolved from Rinnegan, doesn't automatically mean its superior. It means it has unique traits that got common through generation that can distinguish it away from the common Rinnegan. They might be better at some points, but it might also be lacking too at some of Rinnegan's strong points (because some traits from Rinningan might got lost through generation of breeding/harnessing Sharingan traits)

Now look what you made me do...My head hurts
True, you worded it better than I did actually (sorry for the headache)
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Old 2009-03-25, 16:34   Link #73
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At first I thought MS was stronger too, but fighting with 6 disposable bodies is a formidable advantage really. Even assuming that Itachi's jutsus could beat Pain's jutus, there are 6 bodies, and so far we've only seen Itachi use 3 MS jutsus at a time before getting exhausted or dropping dead. And if he doesn't kill the body who can revive the other 5 he is even more fucked, and that's assuming Itachi even knew that Pain could do that (and even if he did know, he would still have to guess which body does what, so he'd have a 1/6 chance of killing Hell Realm).
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Old 2009-03-25, 16:35   Link #74
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Pain has already shown that genjutsu would be useless if you cannot get all of the bodies at the same time. Itachi can only catch one of the paths, but the others will still be around to stomp him into the ground.

Pain wins over Itachi.
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Old 2009-03-25, 16:49   Link #75
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I'd have to agree.

Not to mention Naraka Path consuming and revitalizing bodies that are supposed to be dead/defeated without a scratch.

If Itachi had EMS I would call it a closer match but since he doesn't on top of being partially blind and ill from the effects of using MS I think Pain would have the overall advantage with his body count (best offense against Sharingan as it is already) and the various abilities at his disposal.

Gravity, summoning, soul-sucking, chakra absorbing, mechanical explosives and resurrection etc.
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Old 2009-03-25, 16:52   Link #76
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I have no idea how this turned into a vs thread but...just some lines from the manga.

Jiraiya about the rinnegan: (chapter 373 page 02)
Those eyes of the 3 great eye techniques they are without question the most powerfull. The rinnegan.

Well it wasnt mentioned but i am positive the 3 great doujutsus are Rinnegan (1), Sharingan (2) and Byakugan (3). Each eye technique has abilities surpassing the other. Rinnegan is also the most rare doujutsu...followed by the tragic fate of the Uchiha's with their Sharingan and the better organized Hyuuga's with the Byakugan.

Also about james who said Pain is the most powerfull person so far. It is true though. He didnt mention that Pain is the strongest... just the most powerfull. A person with a bazooka has a more powerfull weapon at his disposal then a person with a handgun. But...it might be the person with the handgun that wins. Same thing. In this case Pain would be the man with the bazooka (Shinra Tensei which blew up Konoha) and Naruto with his handgun (Sennin Mode).
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Old 2009-03-25, 16:55   Link #77
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Pain has already shown that genjutsu would be useless if you cannot get all of the bodies at the same time. Itachi can only catch one of the paths, but the others will still be around to stomp him into the ground.
Is that the reason why Kakashi says that both Asuma and Kurenai has to close their eyes otherwise they're dead? Itachi can catch multiple minds. But more importantly genjutsu is a mental attack, and there's only one Nagato, so Itachi has to catch one person. It is another question if genjutsu has any effect on the real Nagato or maybe only on the bodies. But it would be nonsense if the genjutsu had effect only on the bodies since the bodies do not have their own mind, but who knows, we can see much nonesense in this manga
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Old 2009-03-25, 16:55   Link #78
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I think like what Erosennin1 pointed out earlier is that Tsukuyomi is really the failsafe to counteract any of Pain's attacks and I'm not stating for fact that he could, but it makes sense that if Nagato's mind is connected to all six bodies and Tsukuyomi is a mental attack, then theoretically it "could" have dire consequences for Nagato being at the helm of his "Empire of Pain." But again this is all just speculation and "what-ifs" and "what could'ves", and the only real jutsu that I am even 90% behind Itachi with winning is Susanoo, I don't think even Shinra Tensei or Chibaku Tensei could phase that thing.
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Old 2009-03-25, 17:02   Link #79
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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
How can he be most powerful when Naruto is beating him? And don't come with the kyuubi thing, the kyuubi is Naruto's tool, he uses it in one way or another. BTW what we have seen is only half of the kyuubi, Naruto will have the "key" soon.
Naruto has yet to scratch Deva Pain, dealing, instead, untold damage to the other bodies. So, we cannot really say that Naruto is currently winning the fight, though I do feel that Naruto currently has enough information develop a strategy to win the batttle.

Added to that, Senjutsu is one of the greatest hax ever invented.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
Tsukiyomi would catch all 6 bodies, and if Nagato's mind is linked to the bodies (and that is the case) then it has a chance to catch even Nagato himself, no matter where Nagato is. And Tsukiyomi would not just block movement like Jiraiya's toad song genjutsu but also cause Nagato's mental breakdown, he could end up in a coma just like Kakashi did, and we know that Itachi was going easy on Kakashi because he didn't want to kill him. Pain is a monster like Naruto, the best way to beat him is attack his mind instead of his monstruous 6 bodies, and that's where Itachi was the best. And finally: they cannot stab Itachi because the most important part about tsukiyomi is that it is instantaneous, Itachi looks at you and you end up braindead. Pain's only way to end the mental attack of Itachi would be to cut the connection to the 6 bodies, which means he would lose his 6 bodies and that ends the fight.
1.) Since Nagato was not shown to be affected by the Toad Genjutsu, I see no reason to assume that he would be affected by Tsukuyomi.

2.) When was it ever said that Tsukuyomi can be used on multiple people (no, what Kakashi said was only for regular Sharingan genjutsus, he did not know about the Tsukuyomi at the time)? Do you mean Itachi can rapid-fire the technique, and catch all the bodies in the span of a few seconds? Because that has never been said, either (we do not know how many Tsukuyomi can be used in one battle before Itachi's eye falls out ). Added to that, while the attack itself is instantaneous, it still requires a second or so to dominate the mind and force the body through the technique.

3.) Conceivably Nagato could simply disconnect the Pain dolls, and then almost instantly reconnect them (considerng that the pain dolls are constantly receiving a constantly fluxuating chakra supply anyway, who is to say that they couldn't be cut off and then reconnected. In fact, that is undoubtedly what happened to the 3 bodies effected by Jiraiya's Toad Genjutsu).

4.) On the off chance that Nagato could be attacked through the Pain dolls, do you really think that any torture that Itachi could potentially put Nagato through would actually knock him unconscious/brain dead? This is a man who weilds a weapon called Pain, and controls his puppets by having giant rods shoved through his spine. Litterally every moment of his life is filled with pain. So, No torture that Itachi could conceivably use would affect Nagato's messed up mind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
Amaterasu is not a regular fire jutsu just like tsukiyomi is not a regular genjutsu, both are ultimate powers because they have no weakness of the normal version of the jutsu. Amaterasu not only burns everything to ashes but most importantly it is generated on the spot that Itachi looks at, this means it does not travel from Itachi towards Pain. Therefore it cannot be repelled by Shinra Tensei because it is originated on the 6 Pain bodies that Itachi is looking at.
As I already said to Super, Pain could simply obscure Itachi's view with various summons, or he could conceivably absorb the technique (there is no reason to assume that Amaterasu could not be absorbed, it is still classified as ninjutsu after all). Added to that, even if Deva Pain is burned, none of them seem to have pain receptors, so he could still fire of a Shinra Tensei at Itachi (possibly killing him), then the Naraka body could repair Deva before dying itself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
By definition Susanoo is godlike, with the yata mirror it can reflect any physical attack, so i really don't see how would Pain be able to attack Itachi's body while it is protected by that supernatural monster.
I seriously doubt that the Yatta mirror could block gravity (or Chibaku Tensei)...or are you trying to say that Susanoo would allow Itachi to fly .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
Itachi has less mass murdering AOE jutsu but he could also destroy a village. Otherwise why would Sasuke be so sure that he can destroy Konoha. Amaterasu can burn down an entire village, so it's quite useful even if Pain's ultimate shinra tensei is stronger used for mass murdering purpose. Just because we have never seen Itachi fighting to his full power we cannot assume automatically that he is weaker than Pain. Most importantly: using the MS Itachi can control demons, just like Madara controls the kyuubi, and using a tailed demon Itachi can kill huge amount of ninja, if Itachi attacked Konoha using for example the 7 tailed demon then he would be able to reduce Konoha to it's current state.
The MS has only been confirmed to have control over the Kyuubi, so there is not sufficient reason to assume that the MS can control other Bijuu.

Added to that, Itachi at full power (without his illness, or pulling his punches) would simply be able to fight longer. Its not like he would gain an extra MS technique or all of a sudden have all the possible elemental abilities. I'm not sure why fans automatically assume that Itachi would fight any differently if he were not ill.

--

to get back to the main reason for this thread, here are some extra spoiler information translated by Shounensuki:

Quote:
After using Fuuton: Rasen Shuriken twice in Sennin Mode, the Sennin Mode stops (Deva realm now sees through this)

After this, there's also a flasback with a conversation between Deva realm and Jiraiya-sensei, who praises Konoha shinobi for being very great (this is after Naruto says he wants to speak with the real body)
Additionally, in one of the pictures that Blaime posted, Naruto finds Nagato...so Naruto now knows where Nagato is hiding.

Last edited by james0246; 2009-03-25 at 17:20.
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Old 2009-03-25, 17:16   Link #80
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Naruto has yet to scratch Deva Pain, dealing, instead, untold damage to the other bodies. So, we cannot really say that Naruto is currently winning the fight, though I do feel that Naruto currently has enough information develop a strategy to win the batttle.
B-but Pain's cloak is torn and his headband fell...that's "THE" sign

Also do you think that the spoiler means we're going to find out how Yahiko died?
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