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Old 2009-03-25, 17:49   Link #81
blackstarman
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Sharigan > Rinegan because it has plot relevance compared to Rinnegan, Kishimoto wouldn't have Madara as the final villain if Sharigan was inferior. Plus Sasuke is supposed to be Naruto's greatest rival and opponent. The guy is to important and vital to the story to be inferior to the so called Supreme eye. I bet Pain can't do shit against EMS.
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Old 2009-03-25, 17:58   Link #82
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Originally Posted by Mateus View Post
B-but Pain's cloak is torn and his headband fell...that's "THE" sign

Also do you think that the spoiler means we're going to find out how Yahiko died?
Maybe but I don't think this is the end of Pain, I think before the end of the fight, Tobi will appear next to Pain and say: 'The 8-tails has escaped we're going' and before Pain can protest he shouts 'Now!' and they leave with Naruto shouting wait after them before he disappears.
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Old 2009-03-25, 17:59   Link #83
Ero-Senn1n
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Added to that, Senjutsu is one of the greatest hax ever invented.
I must say that Rinnegan is a greater haxx. It's completely nonsense that Nagato has unlimited chakra, i really don't understand how can an advanced eye bloodline give someone unlimited chakra. Both sharingan and byakugan give the user eye related abilities. For example just because Sasuke could se Lee's movements with his sharingan it didn't mean that his body magically became faster and could beat Lee, he had train off his ass to reach Lee's speed and sharingan didn't help in reaching that speed. I hope that this unlimited chakra power is the reason of Nagato's state, i mean he sacrificed his body to achieve this.

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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
1.) When was it ever said that Tsukuyomi can be used on multiple people? Do you mean Itachi can rapid-fire the technique, and catch all the bodies in the span of a few seconds? Because that has never been said, either. Added to that, while the attack itself is instantaneous, it still requires a second or so to dominate the mind and force the body through the technique.
It was never been said but it was implied by Kakashi twice. First when he tells Kurenai and Asume to close their eyes. Second time when Chiyo tells that sharingan genjutsu is useless against multiple ninja, then Kakashi says that Itachi's ability is much more powerful than regular sharingan so they're not safe and nobody should look into Itachi's eyes except MS-Kakashi.
Where was it said that it needs few seconds? After Itachi attacks Kakashi we see that Asuma tells that Kakashi suddenly collapsed after talking, Asuma didn't even notice what happened to Kakashi. Also it was said that it is instantaneous, but never said that it needs some timespan to work.

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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
2.) While we do not know the full strength of the Tsukuyomi (i.e. its full power has never been explored (can it kill?, etc.)), do you really think that any torture that Itachi could potentially put Nagato through would actually knock him unconscious? This is a man who weilds a weapon called Pain, and controls his puppets by having giant rods shoved through his spine. No torture that Itachi could conceivably use would affect Nagato's messed up mind.
Kisame says that he is surprised that Kakashi survived tsukiyomi. We also know that Itachi never wanted to kill anyone from Konoha with it. Anyway Kakashi was practically dead since he collapsed into the river and would be drowned in the water if Gai didn't come. Physical torture is only the beginning, just remember what Itachi did to Naruto, and he wasn't even serious and also it wasn't even tsukiyomi. Itachi could use Naruto's inner fears against him, and Nagato surely has some serious issues, he was a crybaby back when Jiraiya did train him, his mind is unstable so a good genjutsu master can mess him up seriously.

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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
3.) Conceivably Nagato could simply disconnect the Pain dolls, and then almost instantly reconnect them (considerng that the pain dolls are constantly receiving a constantly fluxuating chakra supply anyway, who is to say that they couldn't be cut off and then reconnected. In fact, that is undoubtedly what happened to the 3 bodies effected by Jiraiya's Toad Genjutsu).
Once the body is disconnected it will be destroyed by Itachi, Itachi is not a slow guy, he and Sasuke are insanely fast, just remember how fast Sasuke was against Deidara+Tobi, and Itachi could keep up with him despite his illness. Pain's speed is nothing special since Kakashi could catch him multiple times.

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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
4.) Since Nagato was not shown to be affected by the Toad Genjutsu, I see no reason to assume that he would be affected by Tsukuyomi.
The toad genjutsu only immobilized the bodies, so if it immobilized Nagato's real body he would not care because his real body is crippled/immobilized anyway. It just didn't matter, since Nagato never used his own body. But Itachi attacks the mind and not just immobilizes the body.

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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
As I already said to Super, Pain could simply obscure Itachi's view with various summons, or he could conceivably absorb the technique (there is no reason to assume that Amaterasu could not be absorbed, it is still classified as ninjutsu after all). Added to that, even if Deva Pain is burned, none of them seem to have pain receptors, so he could still fire of a Shinra Tensei at Itachi, then the Naraka body could repair Deva before dying itself
Assuming that Itachi has no other jutsu than his MS jutsu, but we never saw him fighting seriously. Of course Pain's unlimited chakra haxx gives him an advantage, but Itachi's genius might very well be that decides the battle.

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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
I seriously doubt that the Yatta mirror could block gravity...or are you trying to say that Susanoo would allow Itachi to fly .
We don't know, those are simply magical items. If the magical item blocks everything then it can block the gravity force too. It is not that Itachi flies, if the Yata mirror blockst things it means that Itachi is simply not affected by such a force. BTW if i remember correctly it was never said that it is gravity, it's simply some sort of force that can push and pull things. Gravity is not a directional force (it act the same in all directions) but Pain's force was used only in certain directions and affecting only the chosen items. Anyway, gravity cannot push things away, it can only pull.

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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
The MS has only been confirmed to have control over the Kyuubi, so there is not sufficient reason to assume that the MS can control other Bijuu.
Just a speculation. But after Pain dies Madara will use those demons, they're probably not just decoration
It's logical to assume that MS can control lesser demons, Sasuke could control Manda with just regular sharingan, kyuubi is the strongest demon.
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Old 2009-03-25, 18:04   Link #84
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Maybe but I don't think this is the end of Pain, I think before the end of the fight, Tobi will appear next to Pain and say: 'The 8-tails has escaped we're going' and before Pain can protest he shouts 'Now!' and they leave with Naruto shouting wait after them before he disappears.
Lol yeah that would happen wouldn't it? Kinda reminds me of a mom in a toy store telling her son to stop playing with that toy and get to the car, Tobi = Mom, Deva Pain = Son
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Old 2009-03-25, 18:08   Link #85
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Lol yeah that would happen wouldn't it? Kinda reminds me of a mom in a toy store telling her son to stop playing with that toy and get to the car, Tobi = Mom, Deva Pain = Son
Right just to add to the story the mom is telling the kid they need to hurry up before the book store closes (Hachibi being the books), the priority right now is Hachibi, Pain killing himself over the kyuubi when they can't even seal the kyuubi straight is useless and now that they have tested Naruto's strength, then when they come back for him afterwards they can send Pain and Kisame to do it. Naruto will be too busy rebuilding Konoha to train again.
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Old 2009-03-25, 18:13   Link #86
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Chucks, I take a vacation from posting and when I come back no ones even pay attention of what I have to say, well , then, Im going to force people to do it….mwahahahaha….

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Originally Posted by Phenomenal View Post
Absorb that chakra based monster!!

Huh? It You are assuming it can absorb Susanoo? I don’t think it can absorb just anything.


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Itachi's Amateratsu and Susano'o is useless against Pain. genjutsu might be Itachi's only hope but again we will reserve judgment on that subject till this fight is finished.
You know, You talk about Fanboy, but haters are even worst. One thing is that Pain is superior than Itachi, but don’t go around saying that Amaterasu and Susanno are useless against Pain when one of the Pain got Pwned by a Rasengan made by Konohamaru…


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Originally Posted by JINBEI View Post
Rinnegan is the most supreme of doujutsu, kishi own words.
The tool alone can’t be use to determine how good the Ninja is, or else, you should judge all Uchihas by the strength Madara has.

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Originally Posted by aliasxn View Post
At first I thought MS was stronger too, but fighting with 6 disposable bodies is a formidable advantage really. Even assuming that Itachi's jutsus could beat Pain's jutus, there are 6 bodies, and so far we've only seen Itachi use 3 MS jutsus at a time before getting exhausted or dropping dead. And if he doesn't kill the body who can revive the other 5 he is even more fucked, and that's assuming Itachi even knew that Pain could do that (and even if he did know, he would still have to guess which body does what, so he'd have a 1/6 chance of killing Hell Realm).
Remember that Itachi was Ill.

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Originally Posted by Tettsuo View Post
Pain has already shown that genjutsu would be useless if you cannot get all of the bodies at the same time. Itachi can only catch one of the paths, but the others will still be around to stomp him into the ground.

Pain wins over Itachi.
Yeah, that’s the point really, the numbers.


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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post

1.) Since Nagato was not shown to be affected by the Toad Genjutsu, I see no reason to assume that he would be affected by Tsukuyomi.
I also doubt that Negato is affected by any Genejutsu any of the body is bonded in.

Quote:
2.) When was it ever said that Tsukuyomi can be used on multiple people (no, what Kakashi said was only for regular Sharingan genjutsus, he did not know about the Tsukuyomi at the time)? Do you mean Itachi can rapid-fire the technique, and catch all the bodies in the span of a few seconds? Because that has never been said, either (we do not know how many Tsukuyomi can be used in one battle before Itachi's eye falls out ). Added to that, while the attack itself is instantaneous, it still requires a second or so to dominate the mind and force the body through the technique.
First off, Tsukuyomy took a some time to dominate the mind, because it was done against Sasuke and Kakashi, they had Sharigan, and as said by Itachi some resistance could be made, this period you mention is none existent against someone that doesn’t have Sharingan.

And Then, Kakashi warned Asuma even during the Jutsu to keep their eyes closed, this could infer that Itachi could indeed trap multiple people in small amount of time. While I don’t know how many Tsukuyomi Itachi can do in a row, he does seems to be capable of doing it at least 2 times and then be able to use another MS jutsu (who knows how it was when he was healthy)

Remember also that Kakashi warned about the “rapid-fire” when they were looking for Gaara, CHiyo explained her ways of fighting a Shaigan user, and Kakshi quickly shun off that theory because of Tsukiyomy instantaneous effect.

Quote:
3.) Conceivably Nagato could simply disconnect the Pain dolls, and then almost instantly reconnect them (considerng that the pain dolls are constantly receiving a constantly fluxuating chakra supply anyway, who is to say that they couldn't be cut off and then reconnected. In fact, that is undoubtedly what happened to the 3 bodies effected by Jiraiya's Toad Genjutsu).
It shouldn’t work, given the Nature of instantaneous of Tsukiyomi, by the moment Negato realizes what is happening, the body should be out of commission.

While I’m not sure what could happen here, as, maybe, Negato can Jump start the already KO body. So, now that I think about it, Itachi could trapped someone in his Genjutsu, but Negato could just take him out of the coma easily, assuming Itachi cant kill it with Tsukuyomi.

Quote:
4.) On the off chance that Nagato could be attacked through the Pain dolls, do you really think that any torture that Itachi could potentially put Nagato through would actually knock him unconscious/brain dead? This is a man who weilds a weapon called Pain, and controls his puppets by having giant rods shoved through his spine. Litterally every moment of his life is filled with pain. So, No torture that Itachi could conceivably use would affect Nagato's messed up mind.
Actually, I don’t think it is the torture itself that makes the person go into a Coma, is the stress of been affected by that Jutsu. The Brain just overloads and shuts down completely.



Quote:
I seriously doubt that the Yatta mirror could block gravity (or Chibaku Tensei)...or are you trying to say that Susanoo would allow Itachi to fly .


It is said to reflect everything, and it is a Mythical weapon, so, who knows? And:

“that is Susanoo. The chakra becomes tangible and takes the shape of the great, strong belligerent god. His fighting spirit doesn't abate until he has destroyed all the enemies before him.

Susanoo possesses a flawless offense and defense thanks to the "incorporeal tools" he holds in both of his hands. The "Sword of Totsuka" in his right hand cuts down any opponent, while the "Mirror of Yata" in his left hand rejects any attack. Material, incorporeal, ninjutsu, physical attacks: all these have no meaning in front of the god."

--

Like I said in my other post, is just the order in which you fight of the bodies:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rurik
“Well, Its really a crap shoot, Pain weakness seems to be against Genjutsu (of course really powerful ones) like when he fought Jiriaya. I’m not sure How many Tsukuyomi Itachi could do in a row (assuming he is great shape) but using 2 Tsukiyomi to stop the 2 most dangerous Pain body (the one that can revive the others and Yahiko Pain) and after that a Susanoo to take care of the rest.”
The problem here is that while Itachi is going to be already exhausted, and maybe even close to dying, Negato will still be fresh in his mountain, preparing to send the other bodies he has stored.

BTW, James, even if Itachi is inferior to Pain, I think all of this explanation could be useful for Madara against Pain (which im positive, Madara is the superior) And Itachi is Dead, Pain is still kicking…

I wonder.... How is Hunter going to react when he visits the page….
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Old 2009-03-25, 18:14   Link #87
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Right just to add to the story the mom is telling the kid they need to hurry up before the book store closes (Hachibi being the books), the priority right now is Hachibi, Pain killing himself over the kyuubi when they can't even seal the kyuubi straight is useless and now that they have tested Naruto's strength, then when they come back for him afterwards they can send Pain and Kisame to do it. Naruto will be too busy rebuilding Konoha to train again.
Yeah plus they (Tobi, etc) could use the extra person. I can't imagine how many days the five of them would be standing there trying to seal away the 8-tails, I nearly rofl'd seeing just the three of them go at trying to seal the *fake* one
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Old 2009-03-25, 18:26   Link #88
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BTW, James, even if Itachi is inferior to Pain, I think all of this explanation could be useful for Madara against Pain (which im positive, Madara is the superior) And Itachi is Dead, Pain is still kicking…
LOL, you got me there. Madara is Itachi with no defects (illness and sympathy) and an extra MS technique. I still expect Pain would win against Itachi, if for no other reason that Pain would know Itachi's abilities, but Itachi does not know Pain's.

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Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
I wonder.... How is Hunter going to react when he visits the page….
That is why I edited in some spoiler information in my last post. This conversation is turning into a Versus debate, and we have no need of anymore of those . So, moving on...

Here are some more details, which confirm that Shikimaru is useless (they are from Ohana...I think):

Quote:
Naruto is clever.
He let Pain stab him, Naruto tracks the chakra sourcre.
Pain uses Shinra Tensei but Naruto dodges with Kage Shuriken
Naruto manages the 5 seconds thing.

Next Week
Unexpected Conclusion
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Old 2009-03-25, 18:36   Link #89
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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
I must say that Rinnegan is a greater haxx. It's completely nonsense that Nagato has unlimited chakra, i really don't understand how can an advanced eye bloodline give someone unlimited chakra. Both sharingan and byakugan give the user eye related abilities. For example just because Sasuke could se Lee's movements with his sharingan it didn't mean that his body magically became faster and could beat Lee, he had train off his ass to reach Lee's speed and sharingan didn't help in reaching that speed. I hope that this unlimited chakra power is the reason of Nagato's state, i mean he sacrificed his body to achieve this.
That's true about Pain's unlimited chakra… It was the same thing with Deidara: The dude crossed the desert, lost an arm fighting Gaara, crossed back, performed the extracting ritual for 3 straight days, then lost his other arm fighting Kakashi and Naruto, and at no point did he complain or show any signs of being tired or out of chakra. He ran out of clay, but not chakra. And Naruto is the one supposed to have the hax stamina.


Quote:
It was never been said but it was implied by Kakashi twice. First when he tells Kurenai and Asume to close their eyes. Second time when Chiyo tells that sharingan genjutsu is useless against multiple ninja, then Kakashi says that Itachi's ability is much more powerful than regular sharingan so they're not safe and nobody should look into Itachi's eyes except MS-Kakashi.
Where was it said that it needs few seconds? After Itachi attacks Kakashi we see that Asuma tells that Kakashi suddenly collapsed after talking, Asuma didn't even notice what happened to Kakashi. Also it was said that it is instantaneous, but never said that it needs some timespan to work.
When Kakashi told them to close their eyes he had never seen Tsukyomi before, so it makes no sense that he knew what it could and couldn't do. I believe he was talking about Itachi's genjutsus in general... Plus, genjutsus work by controlling the chakra flow on a person's brain, or something like that. So using Tsukyomi on 2 people would be the same as using 2 Tsukyomis, and we've only seen him use 3 MS jutsus at a time (true, he was pulling his punches against Sasuke, and he may have used it as an excuse to avoid fighting Jiraiya, but still.... that's what we know). Considering that Pain's got 6 bodies, Itachi is still at disadvantage... Not only that, but the 6 bodies would have to be looking directly into Itachi’s eyes, which is even more unlikely. Also, Tsukyomi work's by crushing a person's mind (unless there's more to it than we have been told), which is something the bodies don't have to begin with.

Last edited by aliasxn; 2009-03-25 at 20:34.
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Old 2009-03-25, 20:04   Link #90
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since itachi is agenius he would create a genjutsu worm/virus that eats its way to the main server(nagato)
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Old 2009-03-25, 20:38   Link #91
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Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
The tool alone can’t be use to determine how good the Ninja is, or else, you should judge all Uchihas by the strength Madara has.
and do you think the tool is what makes Pain so badass and powerful?

Yeah, I didn't think so.
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Old 2009-03-25, 21:36   Link #92
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Huh? It You are assuming it can absorb Susanoo? I don’t think it can absorb just anything.
Susano'o is a ninjutsu and Susano'o itself is materailized chakra. Pain ABSORBS BOTH. This is canon.

Quote:
You know, You talk about Fanboy, but haters are even worst. One thing is that Pain is superior than Itachi, but don’t go around saying that Amaterasu and Susanno are useless against Pain when one of the Pain got Pwned by a Rasengan made by Konohamaru…
And fat Pain absorbed Rasen-Shuriken...Pfft...God pain blew it to hell.
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Old 2009-03-25, 22:46   Link #93
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and do you think the tool is what makes Pain so badass and powerful?

Yeah, I didn't think so.
Huh? My quote had nothing to do with Pain, rather than saying that the The tool alone is nothing if the user canīt use it correctly.

And BTW, Im positive that Rinengan is what makes Pain so powerful. (The fact that he can be 6 people at the same time). (about the BadAss---Hmmm...Yeah...He is been used by Madara, I donīt see anything Bad ass about that)

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Originally Posted by Phenomenal View Post
Susano'o is a ninjutsu and Susano'o itself is materailized chakra. Pain ABSORBS BOTH. This is canon.
He also absorbed Senjutus energy and look what happened, like I said, it canīt absorb everything, so donīt go on taking as fact it can absorb Susanoo.

Quote:
And fat Pain absorbed Rasen-Shuriken...Pfft...God pain blew it to hell.
I'm not talking about Rasen-Shurinken here, I talking about Konohamaru rasengan, don't go on and only use information that is more suitable to what you are trying to prove here. Its simple, your quote was incorrect, and the fact that Konohamaru could harm Pain is the proof to that.

And Im not even saying Itachi is/was superior than Pain, but some of you guys really believes Pain words when he say he is a God... Eyther way I had my fun, So I wont continue this funny debate...
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Old 2009-03-25, 22:59   Link #94
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Huh? My quote had nothing to do with Pain, rather than saying that the The tool alone is nothing if the user canīt use it correctly.

And BTW, Im positive that Rinengan is what makes Pain so powerful. (The fact that he can be 6 people at the same time). (about the BadAss---Hmmm...Yeah...He is been used by Madara, I donīt see anything Bad ass about that)
No Pains skills with the Rinengan is what makes him so powerful, Pain did what Madara only dreams of doing, heck he accomplished Madaras dream while trying to do something else.

badass.

Nuff said.
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Old 2009-03-25, 23:10   Link #95
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No Pains skills with the Rinengan is what makes him so powerful
Is a 30/70, Skills are important, but the skill to use Rinengan wihout Rinengan is nothing, whereas the Rinengan wihout Skill can acomplish much more..as Negato showed you when he was a Kid...Heck Rinegan could be even more broken than Shairgan and Actually Negato doesnt have any skills to do what he does.



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Pain did what Madara only dreams of doing, heck he accomplished Madaras dream while trying to do something else.
And that is? are you referring to destroying Konohas buildings? first off, are you 100% sure that is Madara ultimate goal? and then the real destruction of a Village is not destroying where they live....is destroying their people, something Pain failed to do. Even Deidara can pull of the destruction of Konohas houses...
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Old 2009-03-25, 23:18   Link #96
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im pretty sure it was only rumored to be the most powerful as per Jman.

However all we know for sure is that it was the original, and if anything THIS ENTIRE MANGA is built on the theme of, the younger generation WILL SURPASS the prior generation.

In this the rinnegan (older) is surpassed by the newer (sharingan).
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Old 2009-03-25, 23:26   Link #97
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Is a 30/70, Skills are important, but the skill to use Rinengan wihout Rinengan is nothing, whereas the Rinengan wihout Skill can acomplish much more..as Negato showed you when he was a Kid...Heck Rinegan could be even more broken than Shairgan and Actually Negato doesnt have any skills to do what he does.
What the heck are you taking about? all the Rinengan allowed Nagato to do was posses all 5 elements.....it was Nagato OWN skill that learned and master all the Jutsu the J-man taught him. It was Nagato's own skill that gave birth to the six paths of Pain that crushed konoha.

Rinengan without skills = nothing, you have to have skill to use the Rinengan unlike the Shairgan.

Quote:
And that is? are you referring to destroying Konohas buildings? first off, are you 100% sure that is Madara ultimate goal? and then the real destruction of a Village is not destroying where they live....is destroying their people, something Pain failed to do. Even Deidara can pull of the destruction of Konohas houses...
Pain crushed konoha, its Canon.

Thats the thing, Pain was not there to do what he did, yet he accomplished more then what Madara with the Kyuubi could do, imagine if Pains mission was to wipe out konoha, like Madaras.

Badass, Nuff said. Stop your hatin.

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Old 2009-03-25, 23:32   Link #98
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im pretty sure it was only rumored to be the most powerful as per Jman.

However all we know for sure is that it was the original, and if anything THIS ENTIRE MANGA is built on the theme of, the younger generation WILL SURPASS the prior generation.

In this the rinnegan (older) is surpassed by the newer (sharingan).
Why do you conveniently leave out Byakugan from that equation?

Ahhh... is it because, including it would defeat the equation? Since so many believe Byakugan automatically falls short of the other two while it did come after Rinnegan.
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Old 2009-03-25, 23:33   Link #99
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im pretty sure it was only rumored to be the most powerful as per Jman.
No.......Kishi even lets you know in a data book.
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Old 2009-03-25, 23:46   Link #100
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What the heck are you taking about? all the Rinengan allowed Nagato to do was posses all 5 elements.....it was Nagato OWN skill that learned and master all the Jutsu the J-man taught him. It was Nagato's own skill that gave birth to the six paths of Pain.

Rinengan without skills = nothing, you have to have skill to use the Rinengan unlike the Shairgan.
Dude, I might be rusty, but I donīt recall anywhere in the manga implying that the 6 paths are product of Negatos skills, and If Im not mistaken, the 6 path are related to the Rinengan.

Remember also that when Negato was a kid, he killed a Jounin thanks to the Rinengan., so saying that you need skills to use the rinengan is not a 100% correct. so is the same about not needing skill to use Sharigan, that is also incorrect.

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Thats the thing, Pain was not there to do what he did, yet he accomplished more then what Madara with the Kyuubi could do, imagine if Pains mission was to wipe out konoha, like Madaras.
Pain wanted to destroy Konoha to show them "Pain", so even if he was not there to destroy Konoha, he tried to do it, and failed. just like Madara failed, but unlike Pain, who didnt met any Ninja on his level to oppose him, Madara had as opponent Shodaime...

I think Im going to stop debating because you seem to be twisting a bit the facts to make Pain actions look bigger and greater than how they really are.
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