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View Poll Results: Toradora! - Episode 25 (END) Rating
Perfect 10 263 62.17%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 68 16.08%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 37 8.75%
7 out of 10 : Good 23 5.44%
6 out of 10 : Average 12 2.84%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 3 0.71%
4 out of 10 : Poor 1 0.24%
3 out of 10 : Bad 1 0.24%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 1 0.24%
1 out of 10 : Painful 14 3.31%
Voters: 423. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2009-03-29, 12:41   Link #481
Guardian Enzo
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Typhonestra, I appreciate your loyalty but honestly, I think you're reaching. I managed to survive to the end of ZnT's first season, and I've watched everything SHnS has had to offer (and I believe we can throw HnG in here, too - I managed to choke down about 7 eps of that). It's the same performance every time. Shana and Taiga are better because the overall premises (is that the right plural?) are better, and the writing is better - but it's really just variations on a theme. The woman is her own walking franchise. God love her, it works - she's the only seiyuu I know what can say that. But when you compare her to someone like Yui Horie or the Godly Romi Paku, who can disappear into a character - well, I guess it's just a matter of personal preference.

Edit: I'm moving this train of thought over to the "VA appreciation" topic, because I fear it's getting a bit OT.
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Old 2009-03-29, 12:59   Link #482
typhonsentra
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It's hard to argue about subtlety as everyone will have a different opinion but in saying Taiga is the same performance, can you actually come up with any comparable "Dramatic" scenes in either previous role to the ones in Toradora (The breakdown in 19, the confession in 21, and the "wedding" in 25)? One of the distinctions between Toradora and those previous is that for once she actually has to act like a couple with the male lead rather than just pine and blush from afar. You can complain about the quality of the acting yes, but I don't think she's done a role like this where she was required to so it's hardly predictable from my point of view.

But again, in your original post you wrote that Louise and Shana are practically the same role when even a cursory glance at the role would say otherwise. ZnT is almost pure physical comedy (Albeit, poorly done) whereas Shana is more drama heavy with much lower key humor. Shana also isn't aggressive nor physically abusive of Ryuuji (Shana-tan and training (Which Yuji volunteers to do) not withstanding).

And if we're talking about scripts rather than character interpretation, in regards to Taiga vs. the others one big difference stands out: Her relationship with Minori.



In all the previously mentioned roles even if they developed a begrudging respect she's still competing with the other girls for the male lead's attention. That never happens in Toradora and in fact she actively tries to set him up with her friend. Was that predictable?

And finally as far as Horie goes, I agree she's great but it isn't as if she doesn't reuse voices too. Minori sounds about as close to Eri from School Rumble as Taiga does to Louise.
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Old 2009-03-29, 13:02   Link #483
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I think I already anticipated this direction and replied in "VA appreciation" - if you feel differently, let me know. In short, I would argue that the difference is in the writing - not the performance.
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Old 2009-03-29, 13:21   Link #484
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Would people be comparing Znt And Toradora if they didn't share JC staff and some VAs?
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Old 2009-03-29, 13:30   Link #485
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The three stories and their character development have very little in common.... so I'd guess no. I find the attempted comparisons odd because honestly I didn't care for either ZnT or Shana whereas I enjoyed this series and its unusual characters. Calling them "the same" comes pretty close to just saying all anime is "the same" from my perspective.
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Old 2009-03-29, 13:42   Link #486
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I watched both series, but find all three to be separate from each other. ZnT was 'harem' fantasy (thankfully focusing more on the hero/heroine except for lolresetfordrama after each season ) Shana was a more supernatural shonen action (with a female lead).

Toradora was more rom/com. They're not trying to save the world etc. They are simply trying to figure out where they stand in the world and their own feelings. I loved it for this.
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Old 2009-03-29, 14:54   Link #487
Guardian Enzo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SageGaiGar View Post
I watched both series, but find all three to be separate from each other. ZnT was 'harem' fantasy (thankfully focusing more on the hero/heroine except for lolresetfordrama after each season ) Shana was a more supernatural shonen action (with a female lead).

Toradora was more rom/com. They're not trying to save the world etc. They are simply trying to figure out where they stand in the world and their own feelings. I loved it for this.
Agreed. Shana is generally well-executed supernatural action-adventure, and ZnT clumsy romantic farce. Toradora is an order of magnitude more layered and emotionally introspective than those series.
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Old 2009-03-29, 17:17   Link #488
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Before someone jumps in too hard ... its also generally recognized that the source material for both Shana and ZnT had considerably more depth that did not make it to the anime adaptation (as with many adaptations). But we're focusing on the anime in this thread
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Old 2009-03-29, 17:40   Link #489
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For the record, I thought Shakugan no Shana's emotional aspect was extremely hollow and tacked on. Frankly, when I jumped into the series, I was looking forward to the action, not whatever character development the writers could come up with halfway through the series. I was rolling my eyes by the end of the first season, and I didn't even bother with the second. As an action series, it does its job very well; as a drama, it's downright annoying. It could have been handled well, but I thought it wasn't at all.

Having Shana as the only other Kugimiya role I've seen that I could compare, I didn't get any Shana vibes from Taiga whatsoever. They're both tsunderes, but that's about all I got. Hence, I can't find any reason to compare the two series, since they both set out to do different things.

As I mentioned before, I can't speak for Zero no Tsukaima.
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Old 2009-03-29, 18:06   Link #490
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im watching the first season of shana now and i noticed that the scenes from Tordora with the two birds on a wire is also done in shana at least once that i noticed.
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Old 2009-03-29, 18:10   Link #491
Vexx
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Its also done in about a dozen or more other romance anime and more film/tv. Its a common motif.
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Old 2009-03-29, 18:39   Link #492
Justin Kim
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Isn't the voice actor of Taiga the same for all the other recent anime series: Shakugan no Shana, and Zero no Tsukaima?
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Old 2009-03-29, 18:43   Link #493
Vexx
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Isn't the voice actor of Taiga the same for all the other recent anime series: Shakugan no Shana, and Zero no Tsukaima?
Yes, that's why the notion of comparison even comes up.... people see her in the credits and automatically make broad assumptions about the series content that really don't hold up.
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Old 2009-03-29, 19:31   Link #494
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Yes, that's why the notion of comparison even comes up.... people see her in the credits and automatically make broad assumptions about the series content that really don't hold up.
Exactly.

It's a very broad stroke to bunch all three roles together. Especially when all three shows are completely different. It's like playing the anime equiv of 'making bacon'. (Or how many people can you match to Kevin Bacon and another actor)

Better to watch the show on its own merits. As a stand alone product.
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Old 2009-03-29, 19:36   Link #495
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At least we aren't comparing this to her work in Akane-iro. Not THAT was a 12 episode blight on humanity.
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Old 2009-03-29, 19:39   Link #496
Guardian Enzo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Yes, that's why the notion of comparison even comes up.... people see her in the credits and automatically make broad assumptions about the series content that really don't hold up.
It's not about the material - it's about the performance. At least, that's what I thought we were talking about.
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Old 2009-03-29, 20:40   Link #497
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Originally Posted by Nenkitsune View Post
I was thinking about this this morning, (before coming here) and was going to point something out about her attitude.
the OLD taiga would get embarrassed, hurt Ryuuji, then say something along the lines of "What are you saying you stupid mongrel!"
but instead, in the end, she says "Why would you say sometimes as embarrassing like that!? You should have waited for a better mood or something..."

her physical response is the same Taiga, but she doesn't act like the old Taiga with the way she talks to Ryuuji anymore. she WANTED to hear him say "I love you" just not in their old classroom after finding her in that locker.

anyways, the point is, that people can change a LOT, they can change the way they dress, the way they talk, the people they associate with, but there will STILL be certain things about them, that never will change. for taiga, one of those things is how she deals with extreme embarrassment
So she wanted and EXPECTED Ryuuji to say "I Love You" and still hits him. Even with all of this proof, there's something clearly off with that scenario.

And I thought one of the major aspects of the show was about change. Taiga clearly has changed and the key component of the plot was getting her to change from stop being so abrasive. The same goes for all three female protagonists because you have to change to fully understand yourself, your friends, and your surrondings.

On the Rie Kugimiya Issues, I have a few statements.

-You guys are focusing too much on the tsundere roles she does. You are forgetting other great roles she does like Kagura from Gintama or Mizore from Rosario Vampire. (Some people proclaim they only watch the show for her)
-Taiga to me is a balance between the two other major tsundere roles. She's equal tsun and dere. So while she's somewhat far-fetched, it can still be believable.
-I don't know anything about Shana. For Louise however, she could be considered "mentally ill" for her issues.
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Old 2009-03-29, 20:54   Link #498
Jeiku
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All I interpreted that last scene to be (Taiga hitting Ryuuji after saying "I love you" to her) was merely one last comedic moment the writers wanted to insert, in case they felt the series was going to end on too melodramatic of a moment. I guess the viewers are supposed to think, "Aww, that's the Taiga we know and love!" I don't think it's something meant to be thoroughly analyzed.
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Old 2009-03-29, 20:55   Link #499
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All I interpreted that last scene to be (Taiga hitting Ryuuji after saying "I love you" to her) was merely one last comedic moment the writers wanted to insert, in case they felt the series was going to end on too melodramatic of a moment. I guess the viewers are supposed to think, "Aww, that's the Taiga we know and love!" I don't think it's something meant to be thoroughly analyzed.
Pretty much exactly my thoughts.
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Old 2009-03-29, 21:07   Link #500
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Originally Posted by Nukerjsr View Post
I don't really enjoy the idea of Taiga attacking her significant other. I don't get how it's wrong to think that. Or promote a more romantic/novel-like ending.

Do you have to accept 100% of everything that a character does to like them? There's really no reason to. We know these characters are flawed, but the way the flaws are portrayed and dealt with determine how we feel about them. And I honestly felt that with everything Taiga went though, she would of grown during the time of the separation. I still believe Taiga is great, but how she attacks people is the one thing about her I do not like.
Oh, carry on like that and you'll likely be very disappointed in real life.

When you fall in love with someone, you HAVE to accept the person for who she is. That is one of the deepest signs of Ryuuji's maturity - of course having a mother like his helps greatly.

This level of implicit acceptance on the part of both parties also suggests, along with the birds, that they will definitely marry.
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