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Old 2012-01-28, 22:33   Link #661
DangerMouse
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Originally Posted by AbZeroNow View Post
Another great episode. I suspect from the nod that Jenny gave Lynn before saying that she knew that Marika was a candidate for the captaincy of the Bentenmaru, that Lynn also knew about Marika. I also found it very interesting that Jenny knew the Odette II was a pirate ship. Actually, I liked how Jenny came off.

It will also be interesting to see how Lynn does with the electronic warfare. Since she had something with "cracking" on her record, this could be something that the unknown party(The Lightning II or is it 11?) wouldn't be anticipating.

I loved how with this it's more anticipating your opponent's moves and strategizing to counter them. It goes back to what Ririka was saying about most fights ending before a single shot is fired.

I wonder what kind of particles they were using for those high-frequency scans? I know they also mentioned scanning with infrared(although they probably also would try to scan with the higher wavelength things too).
Yeah this was another great episode

Totally agree miketyson and Sackett, they've really nailed the pacing and the best of the old school approach to big scifi anime series.

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The technical explanations were very elaborated... maybe even a bit too much as I grew bored of them at some point. Marika's tactics were impressive and showcased her gigantic potential once more. She'll definitely become a fearsome captain in the future.
Loved this stuff. Also, yeah I loved how they showcased her potential again like this.
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Old 2012-01-28, 23:39   Link #662
Guardian Enzo
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I'm enjoying the geeky, 90's style sci-fi buildup of the show as well. Clearly it takes that aspect seriously and a lot of care goes into the way it's presented.

But I keep seeing reference to people complaining about the slow pace, and I think that really misses the point of what most people are having problems with - at least it does for me. The main issue isn't the fact that there's no action - it's that the show is basically an emotional flatline. There's no highs and lows, no anger, hell, barely any petulance. Everyone has a smile on their face and I can't offhand think of an instance where a character raised their voice. You can't have excitement if there's no sense of danger, and you can't have character development if there's no emotional volatility. Four episodes with no action is fine - but four episodes with no emotion (after the nicely-done scenes between Marika and Ririka in the premiere) seems a bit much to me.
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Old 2012-01-29, 00:42   Link #663
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Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
I'm enjoying the geeky, 90's style sci-fi buildup of the show as well. Clearly it takes that aspect seriously and a lot of care goes into the way it's presented.

But I keep seeing reference to people complaining about the slow pace, and I think that really misses the point of what most people are having problems with - at least it does for me. The main issue isn't the fact that there's no action - it's that the show is basically an emotional flatline. There's no highs and lows, no anger, hell, barely any petulance. Everyone has a smile on their face and I can't offhand think of an instance where a character raised their voice. You can't have excitement if there's no sense of danger, and you can't have character development if there's no emotional volatility. Four episodes with no action is fine - but four episodes with no emotion (after the nicely-done scenes between Marika and Ririka in the premiere) seems a bit much to me.
This rings kind of true to me to some extent. Other than the very first episode that had the duo running away from some goons there really hasn't been much of that sort of sense of danger. On the other hand it kind of feels like they are actually building skills for when the show hopefully does make the transition to space pirating and it could be argued that there's some emotional investment to be had in that sort of thing. While the characters aren't growing personality wise, they do seem to be growing experience wise and personally I'm okay with using time to showcase that sort of thing. There does seem to be a purpose behind the likes of what happened in episode 03, but here's the catch....it can't still be doing these sorts of things by the halfway mark. Really all it comes down to too me.
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Old 2012-01-29, 01:03   Link #664
~BC~
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I think the only problem I have with the pacing is that a lot of this stuff is going to seem incredibly tedious on a second viewing. Also, if they don't put all this information to some serious use once the real pirating begins then it's going to seem like a big waste of time/resources, in retrospect.
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Old 2012-01-29, 01:06   Link #665
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I think the only problem I have with the pacing is that a lot of this stuff is going to seem incredibly tedious on a second viewing.
... *has already watched episodes 1-3 at least four times each, and episode 4 twice*
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Old 2012-01-29, 01:41   Link #666
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this show is getting a little better but the slow pace is annoying as always plz tell me this is a 24 ep series.
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Old 2012-01-29, 01:45   Link #667
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...Maybe we should have one of the mods put a note in huge bold letters that shows up at the top of every page in the thread, saying "YES THIS SERIES IS 26 EPISODES, STOP ASKING!"
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Old 2012-01-29, 01:45   Link #668
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... *has already watched episodes 1-3 at least four times each, and episode 4 twice*
LoL, perhaps I should have specified what I meant by "stuff". Namely the science and ship protocols. Interesting the first time but once you know it, you know it.

I should mention I'm enjoying things so far I just hope the build-up is worth it.
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Old 2012-01-29, 01:51   Link #669
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LoL, perhaps I should have specified what I meant by "stuff". Namely the science and ship protocols. Interesting the first time but once you know it, you know it.
*has lost count count on the number of time he's rewatched the rebooting scene of episode 2*

I love watching stuff reboot,never gets old.

And countdowns,I love countdowns,gets me as excited as fight scenes
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Old 2012-01-29, 02:05   Link #670
Om Nerabdator
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Originally Posted by Random Wanderer View Post
...Maybe we should have one of the mods put a note in huge bold letters that shows up at the top of every page in the thread, saying "YES THIS SERIES IS 26 EPISODES, STOP ASKING!"
i cant help it i always forget to check when i ask it lol and its a pain going back to look for my old post >_>
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Old 2012-01-29, 02:18   Link #671
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I really enjoyed this episode. It did a good job of blending current military story with a past pirate story and a future space story. A lot of the technical jargon was currently relatable concepts with a sci-fi and fantasy feel to it. The mix felt pretty unique and appealing.

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Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
I'm enjoying the geeky, 90's style sci-fi buildup of the show as well. Clearly it takes that aspect seriously and a lot of care goes into the way it's presented.

But I keep seeing reference to people complaining about the slow pace, and I think that really misses the point of what most people are having problems with - at least it does for me. The main issue isn't the fact that there's no action - it's that the show is basically an emotional flatline. There's no highs and lows, no anger, hell, barely any petulance. Everyone has a smile on their face and I can't offhand think of an instance where a character raised their voice. You can't have excitement if there's no sense of danger, and you can't have character development if there's no emotional volatility. Four episodes with no action is fine - but four episodes with no emotion (after the nicely-done scenes between Marika and Ririka in the premiere) seems a bit much to me.
I don't really understand what you mean here. Excitement doesn't need a sense of danger. Excitement usually boils down to having something you find interesting or compelling happen (that of course is fairly subjective in itself). Though I would still say we do have some sense of danger coming up with the impending attack. I think what you truly mean is that their is no sense that in the coming attack the characters will die horrific deaths, get raped, or endure someone other form of suffering. I'll agree with you on that. I don't really see this as that kind of show. I see this as an adventure story which is how I think the character look at it. This is why they have smiles on their faces. They, like me, anticipate some fun events without the bleak perspectives many animes/stories like to incorporate. They are not Gundam pilots obsessing about their own mortality or the moral implications of their actions.

Also I don't even know if we have the same definition of character development with your statement on it. I see character development as the change in a character emotional state, opinions/point of view, or their relationship with others whether considered an improvement, regression, or complete breakdown of them. This has no direct relationship between it and drama, which is what emotional volatility is.

Just because Marika and Chiaki didn't scream at each other or get into a fist fight doesn't mean their relationship hasn't developed over these episodes. They haven't been much drama in their relationship but they have grown closer, more on the working side so far but they also closer to friends that before. I have no idea how much closer they will get or if their relationship will eventually disintegrate but so far it has developed from the starting point.

I will say drama is often used to highlight major character development moments but some of the most relevant character development just happens as character spend time together. It's the most realistic approach as all people naturally change over time when interacting with each other. You shouldn't need drama to make those change understandable.
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Old 2012-01-29, 02:29   Link #672
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This episode now makes me remember about Master and Commander, as that movie had the two protags and crew trying to chase down a seemingly powerful French privateer from the Atlantic all the way to the middle of the Pacific Ocean, but to get there they had a lot of stuff in their hands to deal with.

Again, the pacing's all right. You have to be in the shoes of the girls to feel their anticipation of the impending skirmish.
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Old 2012-01-29, 02:41   Link #673
Guardian Enzo
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Originally Posted by Slick_rick View Post

I don't really understand what you mean here. Excitement doesn't need a sense of danger. Excitement usually boils down to having something you find interesting or compelling happen (that of course is fairly subjective in itself). Though I would still say we do have some sense of danger coming up with the impending attack. I think what you truly mean is that their is no sense that in the coming attack the characters will die horrific deaths, get raped, or endure someone other form of suffering. I'll agree with you on that. I don't really see this as that kind of show. I see this as an adventure story which is how I think the character look at it. This is why they have smiles on their faces. They, like me, anticipate some fun events without the bleak perspectives many animes/stories like to incorporate. They are not Gundam pilots obsessing about their own mortality or the moral implications of their actions.
Please don't attempt to put words in my mouth, because you're not even in the ballpark here.

When you have characters behaving exactly the same in every situation, without even a break in facial expression, there's no sense of consequence for anything that happens. There's no sense that the characters relationships have changed at all, because they haven't changed at all. I don't care about action - I'd be very happy to watch a slice-of-life about space pirates. But a good slice-of-life needs character dynamics to be really engaging. It needs to portray how the characters feel, both in general and about each other. And those things need to evolve in reaction to the events around them. I'm just not seeing any of that whatsoever here, at least not yet.

As I said, the major hangup that's preventing me from going from "like" to "love" with this show is that it's an emotional flatline. No matter what happens, nothing with the characters ever changes. Rather than slice-of-life, right now it's closer to a documentary. Sooner or later that's going to change - I mean, you'd think it has to - but there's a limit to how long characters can be two-dimensional before any development they do get seems artificial. We're not at that point yet, but it's not all that far off.

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Originally Posted by sa547 View Post
This episode now makes me remember about Master and Commander, as that movie had the two protags and crew trying to chase down a seemingly powerful French privateer from the Atlantic all the way to the middle of the Pacific Ocean, but to get there they had a lot of stuff in their hands to deal with.

Again, the pacing's all right. You have to be in the shoes of the girls to feel their anticipation of the impending skirmish.
I'm quite familiar with Master and Commander, both the movie and the novels (the entire series which it's from, in fact). While M & C was more thoughtful and "slice of life" than your average action film (one of the reasons it bombed despite being a rather good adaptation) there was never a doubt from the beginning that these people were facing death at every moment. There was also a lot of quietly intense character drama right from the beginning, especially between Aubrey and Maturin. That's an unfairly high standard for Mouretsu Pirates, but I can't honestly say I've seen even a mere shadow of those elements here - I think they could hardly be more different in emotional tone. If you feel differently, great - but I'm just not getting anything from these characters yet. They're flat. There was a pretty strong connection between Marika and Ririka for a few moments of the premiere, but that's it.
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Old 2012-01-29, 02:57   Link #674
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Please don't attempt to put words in my mouth, because you're not even in the ballpark here.
Like I said I didn't really understand what you meant so I think that should clue you into the fact that I was giving my interpretation of what I believed you meant. If I am wrong you're always welcome to clarify, without the semantics.

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When you have characters behaving exactly the same in every situation, without even a break in facial expression, there's no sense of consequence for anything that happens. There's no sense that the characters relationships have changed at all, because they haven't changed at all. I don't care about action - I'd be very happy to watch a slice-of-life about space pirates. But a good slice-of-life needs character dynamics to be really engaging. It needs to portray how the characters feel, both in general and about each other. And those things need to evolve in reaction to the events around them. I'm just not seeing any of that whatsoever here, at least not yet..
You make quite a few broad claims here without providing any evidence which I quite disagree with. I could explain why I feel they have changed or their is consequences, etc. but why should I? You should learn to back your claims with evidence without resorting to blanket statements.

Quote:
As I said, the major hangup that's preventing me from going from "like" to "love" with this show is that it's an emotional flatline. No matter what happens, nothing with the characters ever changes. Rather than slice-of-life, right now it's closer to a documentary. Sooner or later that's going to change - I mean, you'd think it has to - but there's a limit to how long characters can be two-dimensional before any development they do get seems artificial. We're not at that point yet, but it's not all that far off.
You got to elaborate on some of these statements you make before I can take you argument seriously.
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Old 2012-01-29, 03:14   Link #675
Guardian Enzo
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How can I elaborate on "emotional flatline"? I'm saying there's a lack of change and development on the part of the characters - the example is pretty much the entirety of the first four episodes of the series. You're basically asking me to prove there's no white elephant in the room next to you. I don't see one and neither do you, but that's the best I can do - if there's an invisible elephant in there, I can't prove it doesn't exist.
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Old 2012-01-29, 03:33   Link #676
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How can I elaborate on "emotional flatline"? I'm saying there's a lack of change and development on the part of the characters - the example is pretty much the entirety of the first four episodes of the series. You're basically asking me to prove there's no white elephant in the room next to you. I don't see one and neither do you, but that's the best I can do - if there's an invisible elephant in there, I can't prove it doesn't exist.
Well there are a lot of other claims you made but since you wanted to highlight this one lets go with it.

Your overall argument is that the show is an emotional flatline, correct? Now their are reasons below such a statement that lead you to that assessment, correct? One of them I assume would be that "No matter what happens, nothing with the characters ever changes". Is that correct? Now you can elaborate on this as this isn't evidence but just another statement. Give examples from the show how nothing with the characters ever changes. Don't assume this statement is somehow a given cause its not. Also take more time thinking about if you can other reasoning to fit your statement. Whether that reasoning is good or not, we'll just have to see won't we?

This is how you form an solid argument.

If you honestly believe a statement can't be defended with reasoning, don't say it. The only way I would be asking you to prove an invisible elephant is because you're claiming that an invisible elephant actually exists. The burden of proof is on you.
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Old 2012-01-29, 03:50   Link #677
orion
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How can I elaborate on "emotional flatline"? I'm saying there's a lack of change and development on the part of the characters - the example is pretty much the entirety of the first four episodes of the series. You're basically asking me to prove there's no white elephant in the room next to you. I don't see one and neither do you, but that's the best I can do - if there's an invisible elephant in there, I can't prove it doesn't exist.
I think that the "emotional flatline" is here because they exist as a team. The yacht club members are team players so they are not going to be having any real arguements. The real strategy discourse is coming from MC to VP and P and Marika to Chiaki. Every one has their background issues so Marika's little issue is prob not as "major" as the other girls' issues. Those girls are being portrayed as making mature, well thought out decisions which is a rarity in anime.

I can see why this made the top of the ANN list. I still like Another better though.
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Old 2012-01-29, 04:01   Link #678
Guardian Enzo
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What "other claims" are there that you'd like me to back up? I think the essence of my post was pretty straightforward.

In essence, you're asking me to prove the absence of something - the evidence of absence is the absence of evidence. If you ask me to prove dragons don't exist, my argument is that in a lifetime I've never seen a dragon. If you ask me to prove Mouretsu Pirates lacks emotional depth and variation, my argument is that in four episodes I've never seen emotional depth and variation. But if you believe those things exist, I can never prove to your satisfaction that they don't. It's a logical impossibility.

If you asked me to prove to you that character development did exist in this series, I could try and give you specific examples of where I've seen it (so far at least, you can't). Since I really don't think it does, all I can do is repeat the initial statement. I don't see character development at 11:05 of episode 2. I don't see it at 3:47 of episode 3. I don't see it at 19:44 of episode 4. I don't know how I can be any more specific than that. I simply think the characters behave exactly the same now as they did when we met them, with the possible exception of Kane, in some very minor ways.

I would like to see some evidence that Marika is worried about the seriousness of the decision she's about to make.

I would like to see some concern on the part of Kane or any of the girls that they might be in serious danger on their current mission.

I would like to see some variation in the reaction of the classmates to the news that Marika is not just their friend, but also potentially a pirate captain.

I would like to see some evolution in the relationship between Marika and Chiaki. I see no evidence of any growth there at all, since all we really know about Chiaki is that she likes parfaits.

I'd like to see someone on the show act scared or angry about something, sometime.

I'd like so see some character on the show change in some fundamental way. The only thing that changes is their knowledge - they learn things - about space walks, and electronic piracy, and solar panels, and that's interesting. But there's no sign that this knowledge impacts that in any way, apart from the fact that they know possess a piece of knowledge they didn't possess before.

I'd like to see some specific evidence that the characters on the show are reflecting on the meanings or implications of events and decisions, rather than the mechanics of them.


All of that is just a fancy and long-winded way of repeating my initial point. None of it is proof that these things are absent - just that I don't see them. I'd love to see some examples that contradict the notion, but even if you can't show me a dragon, I still can't prove a dragon doesn't exist.
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Old 2012-01-29, 05:11   Link #679
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I'd attack a ship full of girls from behind too. If you know what I mean...

Anyways, with this 4th eps... you get a starting taste of the Pres and VP. Who they are and what they're capable of. Of course, the central character Marika - we get to see her potential capabilities.

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I'd love to see some examples that contradict the notion, but even if you can't show me a dragon, I still can't prove a dragon doesn't exist.
Patience ma boi.
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Old 2012-01-29, 05:12   Link #680
orion
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^^Maybe what you're looking for won't be shown in this title. In really good professional "team" atmosphere, that sort of thing just doesn't happen. It's a rarity to have an arguement due to the fact that an established pecking order exists and everyone is confident that the decison makers are doing their job. Like in an airplane. You're not going to see the pilot, co-pilot and the stewards having heated discussions or an arguement. It would decrease morale and prevent the optimal functioning of the airplane. Same principle in play here.

As for why the other girls aren't that flustered, well pirates are in the history books, not active and they have their own background "issues" so Marika's stuff may not be that frightening to them because they went thru worse. So no worries on their end either. *Episode 4 stated that that these girls have their own "issues" twice. and showed us that they are not "normal" school girls.*

As for the 2 pirates (privateers) on board, they prob know it's not that dangerous so why worry. Their ship will prob back them up in a pinch.
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