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Old 2012-01-29, 05:14   Link #681
Slick_rick
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
What "other claims" are there that you'd like me to back up? I think the essence of my post was pretty straightforward.
You claim that characters relationships have changed at all, you claim that
you can't have excitement if there's no sense of danger, and you can't have character development if there's no emotional volatility (which is where I inititally attacked your argument on). I assume your overall claim is the emotional flatline but you need to understand these are claims also needing support. You've got the prove the truth of these statements or if they are valid in relationship to your overall argument.

Quote:
In essence, you're asking me to prove the absence of something - the evidence of absence is the absence of evidence. If you ask me to prove dragons don't exist, my argument is that in a lifetime I've never seen a dragon. If you ask me to prove Mouretsu Pirates lacks emotional depth and variation, my argument is that in four episodes I've never seen emotional depth and variation. But if you believe those things exist, I can never prove to your satisfaction that they don't. It's a logical impossibility.
It's not really about prove to my satisfaction, that's irrelevant. Your claiming the absence of something in the show but so do have evidence. The show is the evidence towards proving that. You have to show how and why you believe the show lacks it by presenting scenes in the show that support it. The show should be more than enough evidence to prove anything that is worth proving.

Taking the dragon example for instance, you can claim that their aren't no dragons in the world because you haven't encounter them but that's a weak argument. Dragons could be one of the many places you've never been and its not like you've actually tried to look for them in the world. Until you travel around the world you can only claim that you personally haven't seen a dragon. Once you've traveled around the world looking you can make a much better case to say that their aren't dragons in the world. You've actually been to many different countries and investigated many possibilities. Now, when that person asks you for evidence you can tell them of all the places you visited and how you never seen a dragon. They might not believe you but you've have solid evidence and can tell them to go look for themselves if they want to. Now this is of course discounting the normal, no creditable claims for dragons exist so their are no dragons but this argument isn't really relevant cause you don't have that kind of abundant testimonial evidence to latch on to.

Quote:
If you asked me to prove to you that character development did exist in this series, I could try and give you specific examples of where I've seen it (so far at least, you can't). Since I really don't think it does, all I can do is repeat the initial statement. I don't see character development at 11:05 of episode 2. I don't see it at 3:47 of episode 3. I don't see it at 19:44 of episode 4. I don't know how I can be any more specific than that. I simply think the characters behave exactly the same now as they did when we met them, with the possible exception of Kane, in some very minor ways.
I could point you to my last post on where I elaborate a bit on my opinions how the character development was being handled on 2012-01-22, 16:25. Also I the fact that Marika calls Chiaki will the -chan suffix is an important change to how their relationship is to be viewed. It pretty interesting that at first it was Chiaki dragging Marika around in the first episode now it Marika is basically the leader. The fact Marika is now gaining experience planning out missions, spending her hours working on it, then forwarding it up her chain of command and working together with the rest of the crew is important. Being in space and on this adventure is making her love space even more which I think is apparent due to her own comments on space being exciting and the fact your right she does smile a lot and so does the rest of the crew. That tell you something about their experience so far in space? It'll all lead up to her eventual choice of being a captain and established relationship with her crew member that will be important to future plotlines.

Now you could have attempted to prove you point by highlighting parts of the relationships that haven't changed but you decide to resort to semantics instead.

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I would like to see some evidence that Marika is worried about the seriousness of the decision she's about to make.
She's not. So what?

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I would like to see some concern on the part of Kane or any of the girls that they might be in serious danger on their current mission.
He's not concern. So what?

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I would like to see some variation in the reaction of the classmates to the news that Marika is not just their friend, but also potentially a pirate captain.
They're all cool with it. So what?

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I would like to see some evolution in the relationship between Marika and Chiaki. I see no evidence of any growth there at all, since all we really know about Chiaki is that she likes parfaits.
They work well together which is the part they've stressed the most. Chiaki is also observing her from some reason but I think she getting attached but that probably just my hopes. Chiaki is a mystery character but her relationship with Marika hasn't been stagnant is just is slowly paced.

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I'd like to see someone on the show act scared or angry about something, sometime.
Why? This is exactly where I attacked your argument before. Being scared or angry isn't a necessary to having excitement or character development. You relate the two and assume without them the show lacks something when it not trying to be that kind of show.

The show lacks action, yes. The show lacks angry or scared people, yes. The show lacks people fighting or hating each other, yes. This doesn't means it is lacking in excitement or character development. I attacked this premise already which you claimed I completely missed the point on and it seems that I did not.

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I'd like so see some character on the show change in some fundamental way. The only thing that changes is their knowledge - they learn things - about space walks, and electronic piracy, and solar panels, and that's interesting. But there's no sign that this knowledge impacts that in any way, apart from the fact that they know possess a piece of knowledge they didn't possess before.
What does them getting angry, arguing, or getting attacked mean that they've changed in some fundamental way? It doesn't. You just looking for conflict which the show isn't giving you that's different that character development. Discounting knowledge and experience as character development is a mistake in this show cause so far that how that character have development though it and each other.


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I'd like to see some specific evidence that the characters on the show are reflecting on the meanings or implications of events and decisions, rather than the mechanics of them.
Probably not going to happen to a large extent though I expect it later to some extent.


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All of that is just a fancy and long-winded way of repeating my initial point. None of it is proof that these things are absent - just that I don't see them. I'd love to see some examples that contradict the notion, but even if you can't show me a dragon, I still can't prove a dragon doesn't exist.
All of that is you hopes for what you feel that show should be like. I still need to understand what you problem with the show is. If you aren't willing to explore the world to prove dragons don't exists then don't claim dragons don't exist.

In fact, your actually not claiming no dragons exists but no "X" exists. You want us to use the assumption with the first claim that dragons existing is an absurdity because of what we already know about that claim but the variable you employ is not yet proven to be an absurdity. The evidence is in the show, enlighten me. Less semantics and more substance.
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Old 2012-01-29, 05:52   Link #682
Kyuu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick_rick View Post
In fact, your actually not claiming no dragons exists but no "X" exists. You want us to use the assumption with the first claim that dragons existing is an absurdity because of what we already know about that claim but the variable you employ is not yet proven to be an absurdity. The evidence is in the show, enlighten me. Less semantics and more substance.
Perhaps, he wants action... like... right now. Immediately. With big explosions and drama...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo
I would like to see some evidence that Marika is worried about the seriousness of the decision she's about to make.
Thing is... we know Marika's decision. She's gonna be a pirate. If anyone needs that in spoiler tags, then you shouldn't watch the opening to the series. Hell, block out the series title!

On top of that, she's slowly being "pushed" into the role of captain. Whether she's "worried" about it or not, that's irrelevant. As it shows, she'll naturally become a captain on her own right and talent. For now, we're just seeing bits and pieces of that. And it's not gonna make sense for all of that talent to just magically come out in one event. With each event, it shows how she's actually enjoying her role - even before a decision is made.
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Old 2012-01-29, 06:02   Link #683
Slick_rick
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Originally Posted by Kyuu View Post
Perhaps, he wants action... like... right now. Immediately. With big explosions and drama...
I'm certain he does. I believe we both agree that the show has no big explosion or drama yet but that's different that claim the show has no character development or excitement. Character development in a show isn't limited to dramatic moments nor excitement limited to having big explosions. You can achieve both with other methods.
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Old 2012-01-29, 06:21   Link #684
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Well before Enzo brought it up I'd never even wondered if this was an "emotional flatline" and now after reading that post I've concluded that even if it is an emotional flatline I don't give a damn


Quote:
I would like to see some evidence that Marika is worried about the seriousness of the decision she's about to make (...)I'd like to see someone on the show act scared or angry about something, sometime (...)I'd like to see some specific evidence that the characters on the show are reflecting on the meanings or implications of events and decisions, rather than the mechanics of them.

The Motto of this episode was "breakfast beats worrying" and characters try to apply this all over the show.Notably Marika has aknowledged in episode 3 that she's scared but instead of letting her fears get to her she uses them as motivation.

Now I'm not saying nothing will get to them,the episode preview seems to show a bit of tension.But it sure is going to take a whole lot more than a stuck mast to worry them.
And even if there might be some tension in the heat of battle but I don't expect any " reflecting on the meanings or implications of events and decisions".

I definatly believe there will be an evolution in the Chiaki/Marika relationship but I'm not certain it'll be an emotional journey as much as just bonding over kicking ass around the galaxy.
I'm not certain any of the supporting cast will go though a major change.

I do feel the show tries with more or less success to justify the absence of the following:


Quote:
I would like to see some concern on the part of Kane or any of the girls that they might be in serious danger on their current mission.
Why should Kane be concerned?For all we know the attack could be set up by him to test Marika,even if it isn't I'm sure he's got the pirate crew not far away ready to step in just in case things go wrong,and he trust the crew enough not to be concerned.
The girls though,I can understand more,the anime tries to justify this by saying all these girls are all "special" in some way.
I'll take it,I preffer seeing Highschool girls acting like veterans than the inverse.


Quote:
I would like to see some variation in the reaction of the classmates to the news that Marika is not just their friend, but also potentially a pirate captain.
You've got the daughter of a famous tycoon,a convicted cracker and apparently more special cases in the club,pirates have been largly forgotten in that part of the galaxy.So their reaction is pretty much "cool story bro"

Quote:
I would like to see some evolution in the relationship between Marika and Chiaki. I see no evidence of any growth there at all, since all we really know about Chiaki is that she likes parfaits.
There I've got nothing

Just that at least Marika has tried breaking the ice and failed notably by calling her "Chiaki-chan".

So there you have it,I can understand why you'd think people not displaying much emotion isn't that entertaining,afterall in apollo 13 Ron Howard turned this into this . NASA astronauts are trained to stay calm but he thought agitation would make a more entertaining movie.

To finish I've just got a general question for folks familar with 70s/80s sci-fi (which is what MP reminds me of most), were the protagonists of shows like captain harlock and Cobra that concerned with "reflecting on the meanings or implications of events and decisions"?
I've watched both,but a long time ago so I'm not an authority, and I'd say no but I'd definatly like some imput on this

Quote:
Character development in a show isn't limited to dramatic moments nor excitement limited to having big explosions. You can achieve both with other methods.
That's not Enzo's problem,he knows this,or else his avatar wouldn't come from Cross Game
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Old 2012-01-29, 06:49   Link #685
Slick_rick
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Originally Posted by totoum View Post
That's not Enzo's problem,he knows this,or else his avatar wouldn't come from Cross Game
I've haven't read much of that manga but I'm pretty sure someone dies pretty early. Also its a sports manga so i assume every pitch is portrayed as a life and death struggle.

Either way that's what I've taken from this discussion with him. His statement that "You can't have excitement if there's no sense of danger, and you can't have character development if there's no emotional volatility" more or less says exactly that. Whether he means something different or not, he'd need to clarify that more beyond claiming the impossibility of backing up his own claims.
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Old 2012-01-29, 07:14   Link #686
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick_rick View Post
I've haven't read much of that manga but I'm pretty sure someone dies pretty early. Also its a sports manga so i assume every pitch is portrayed as a life and death struggle.
You should stop assuming things,that includes how you assume the character's death is handled , That's all I'll say

I don't think Enzo associates "emotional volatility" with "dramatic moment" , that's not how I read it anyway.

Though I guess I better let Enzo answer himself.
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Old 2012-01-29, 07:48   Link #687
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Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
Please don't attempt to put words in my mouth, because you're not even in the ballpark here.

When you have characters behaving exactly the same in every situation, without even a break in facial expression, there's no sense of consequence for anything that happens. There's no sense that the characters relationships have changed at all, because they haven't changed at all. I don't care about action - I'd be very happy to watch a slice-of-life about space pirates. But a good slice-of-life needs character dynamics to be really engaging. It needs to portray how the characters feel, both in general and about each other. And those things need to evolve in reaction to the events around them. I'm just not seeing any of that whatsoever here, at least not yet.

As I said, the major hangup that's preventing me from going from "like" to "love" with this show is that it's an emotional flatline. No matter what happens, nothing with the characters ever changes. Rather than slice-of-life, right now it's closer to a documentary. Sooner or later that's going to change - I mean, you'd think it has to - but there's a limit to how long characters can be two-dimensional before any development they do get seems artificial. We're not at that point yet, but it's not all that far off.
Emotional change needs a catalyst though, otherwise it just feels artificial. Having people bounce between emotions for the sake of having them bounce between emotions and look like they're growing is a flaw many shows and movies have, and usually ends up with them returning to the status quo because it was all artificial to begin with.

This coming battle could prove to be nice catalyst. A bit of facing your own mortality is always a nice way to pump out some emotion. Though I would like to avoid the usual drama that accompanies it. Realistic though it may be, having characters mope around for several episodes is not my cup of tea.

Then again, as it's the first battle I wouldn't at all be surprised if it ends up being a crushing victory to show how awesome the crew of the Odette is.
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Old 2012-01-29, 09:01   Link #688
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I can half-see Guardian Enzo's point.

One thing the show could do better is establish the significance of some of the activities. EG: it seems like a big deal that the space yacht club is actually getting to go on a cruise, but that's only implied, not stated. Is this voyage an annual, "each year after school gets out" activity? Or is getting to take the yacht a more-special opportunity? The show's been a bit weak on that type of world-building.

On the other hand, this seems to be a star trek type show, wherein the show's mostly about people-management and problem solving (except the techno-babble here is interesting and logical, so far, whereas it was just made-up plot hacks in every star trek ever). That style of show's not for everyone, but it's hard to combine that style with exceptionally deep and complex characters: the characters have to be relatively static for the "management" part of the show to work, so there's a tension there.
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Old 2012-01-29, 09:18   Link #689
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Hm, I’ve really come to like the show and it’s slow pace after watching the fourth episode. So far, this show has been easy watching for me. Marika’s spiky hair is awsum.
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Old 2012-01-29, 09:27   Link #690
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So their space adventure began...
Learning ships controls & chasing ghost ships ^^
Pretty relaxed episode.
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Old 2012-01-29, 10:47   Link #691
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Originally Posted by totoum View Post
The Motto of this episode was "breakfast beats worrying" and characters try to apply this all over the show. Notably Marika has aknowledged in episode 3 that she's scared but instead of letting her fears get to her she uses them as motivation.
Ah yes, "Fear is the mindkiller." This is one of the reasons why she will be a great leader. Also, she has the smarts to be a leader. Clearly the teacher is impressed with her ability to come up with a plan of action without any prior experience.

Does anyone else wonder about the Odette II? We know it's one of the original 7. We know it has decent cyber capabilities and sensors. We don't yet know what sort of actual weapons it has. However, its appearace, with all those solar sails, looks rather frilly and delicate. I can't help but wonder if it was purpose built as a Q-ship, which would make sense since it's main role was to be a privateer since it's conception.

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Old 2012-01-29, 11:20   Link #692
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Old 2012-01-29, 11:23   Link #693
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Originally Posted by Endless Soul View Post
Ah yes, "Fear is the mindkiller." This is one of the reasons why she will be a great leader. Also, she has the smarts to be a leader. Clearly the teacher is impressed with her ability to come up with a plan of action without any prior experience.

Does anyone else wonder about the Odette II? We know it's one of the original 7. We know it has decent cyber capabilities and sensors. We don't yet know what sort of actual weapons it has. However, its appearace, with all those solar sails, looks rather frilly and delicate. I can't help but wonder if it was purpose built as a Q-ship, which would make sense since it's main role was to be a privateer since it's conception.

Endless "Q-ship" Soul
Nope, episode 2 explain the Odette II was previously an explorer ship before it was modified to be use as a pirate ship during the Morning Star independence war.

Anyway, i'm still loving this show. Event though it's slow, it still has great plot and character development. I just wish people who just stop complaining about it being slow, no action and no fanservice and accept the show of what it is: A coming-of-age sci-fi adventure of a young girl who learns by her own experience, skills and knowledge to accept her destiny of becoming a space pirate.
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Old 2012-01-29, 11:30   Link #694
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More likely it was originally a merchant ship later converted to heavy combatant during the war of Independence.

The "Original Seven" is probably a reference to the seven cruisers commissioned by George Washington during the American War of Independence that was the beginning of the American Navy.
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Old 2012-01-29, 11:39   Link #695
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this one continues to be a fun watch, the girls space suits are nice too, not so bulky

a bit jealous that in the future, even high-schoolers have chance to go into space

and i think i get it now, Marika will become a pirate/captain in the last eps, just like Madoka^^
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Old 2012-01-29, 11:43   Link #696
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Originally Posted by MrTerrorist View Post
Anyway, i'm still loving this show. Event though it's slow, it still has great plot and character development. I just wish people who just stop complaining about it being slow
Look,Marika has definatly learned a lot,but has her personality changed in anyway?She's still the same girl she was on episode 1,just with more knowledge.

Same for Chiaki,she's shown a soft spot for chocolat parfaits,otherwise it's the same pokerface all the time.

Now that doesn't bother me at all,Marika learning new stuff,Marika showing off her leadership skills.Chiaki being more and more impressed with her,but it seems others want more.
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Old 2012-01-29, 12:41   Link #697
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Originally Posted by totoum View Post
You should stop assuming things,that includes how you assume the character's death is handled , That's all I'll say

I don't think Enzo associates "emotional volatility" with "dramatic moment" , that's not how I read it anyway.

Though I guess I better let Enzo answer himself.
Sorry totoum, but pursuing a discussion where one party is primarily interested in provocation is a path of diminishing returns, so I'm done with that particular conversation. To the specifics of your point, I think I've pretty much stated what my POV is on that - what I'm looking for is some sort of dynamism - any sort. Clearly a lot of viewers don't care about that, or feel that there's enough of it to satisfy their needs - that's fine. We'll see how it develops from here.
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Old 2012-01-29, 13:00   Link #698
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Guardian Enzo: fwiw, I think you might be overestimating the seriousness of the situation the girls are in, b/c it's in space.

The way I've been filling in the blanks is roughly: the girls don't think they're in much danger; worst-case scenario they can still call the "space cops" -- or so they think -- and so Marika's logic seems reasonable (if they call the cops future yacht trips might not happen b/c the school would get nervous...so try scaring the bad guys away and call the cops if that doesn't pan out).

Similarly with Kane: he can still call the "space cops" and he knows the Bentenmaru is following the Odette, so he's not too worried either.

TL;DR: this isn't a bunch of girls in a war zone and failing to "get it"; the level of danger and serious of the situation is supposed to be closer to that of a bunch of high school girls on a sports trip to a major city, getting followed by a creepy guy, and coming up with a plan to scare the bad guy off without involving the authorities.

Next episode this could all turn out wrong, though, if things turn into a serious shooting match (and not just some rigged "let's test Marika and see how she does" scenario).
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Old 2012-01-29, 14:02   Link #699
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Jenny is starting to become pretty awesome. She's clearly the mistress of the Odette II. Here's to hoping that Space Pirate Captain Marika becomes Space Pirate Admiral Marika.
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Old 2012-01-29, 15:59   Link #700
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Originally Posted by MrTerrorist
Nope, episode 2 explain the Odette II was previously an explorer ship before it was modified to be use as a pirate ship during the Morning Star independence war.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sackett
More likely it was originally a merchant ship later converted to heavy combatant during the war of Independence.
So it really does fit the Q-ship description.

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Originally Posted by Sackett View Post
More likely it was originally a merchant ship later converted to heavy combatant during the war of Independence.

The "Original Seven" is probably a reference to the seven cruisers commissioned by George Washington during the American War of Independence that was the beginning of the American Navy.
It was actually six frigates, but you may be right about the reference.
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