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Old 2009-04-15, 18:08   Link #281
holypanl
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Originally Posted by marvelB View Post
Heh, maybe Shiryuu has the blood-based DF power that some of us (myself included) expected Akainu to possess. If so, then a sword probably isn't his only weapon since he should be able to manipulate the iron in blood to create different kinds of weapons. It would probably be more fitting for such a DF user to reside in Impel Down, considering the grim atmosphere of the prison.....
Nah. I was never really much for the whole Blood Based ability from Akainu. I was thinking Lava or something. But Shiryu might just really be a name based on his reputation, rather than his ability. I personally prefer it that way, seeing as I want to see more regular people on the Grand Line with fearsome names, to compensate for the lack or rarity of DF powered people. I don't think DFs are as precious as they should be.
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Old 2009-04-15, 18:27   Link #282
james0246
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Originally Posted by holypanl View Post
No...I think Brooke could have been severely damaged also. Remember that a lot of those poisons were also acidic. When MAgellan attacked Luffy the brick as burned by some of the poison.

Magellan is, point blank, one of the most powerful fruit possessors ever. End of story.
Yes, Magellan has a trully powerful fruit, so powerful that from a bsic perspective (without knowing the weaknesses, etc), only a Logia can beat Magellan's power (that is, if Magellan's fruit wasn't a Logia). (Not all Logia's can beat Magellan's poison: Crocodile would be defeated quite easily for instance.)

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Originally Posted by holypanl View Post
@James: Well, Reign of fire was, imho, a great depiction of dragons' legendary strength.
The movie Reign of Fire with Christian Bale. Yeah that was pretty sweet. Too bad the humans won...

That being said, I know it is somewhat silly, but how could we forget the main contender to potentially hold the Dragon Fruit...Dragon himself .

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I hope a really great battle sequence consummates this illogic, because it will really leave a lot wanting if it doesn't.
Hmm, you are misusing the word "logic"/"illogic" here. The logic within an imaginary universe is based around the ground rules created by the author/creator. Going Merry finding its crew is not illogical because Oda invented the concept of the Klabautermann, which in turn is the force that propelled it toward Enies Lobby to save its crew (as has happened before). And, the Okama Paradise is not quite that weird due to the fact that it is cloistered away between the known last level (the 5th level) and the unknown hidden level (the 6th Level), so it is in a hard to reach area that has no formal connection with either the 5th or 6th levels (besides the crevice like entrance that are scattered around the prison).

That being said, I do understand your sentiment. Realistically, the Warden/Vice-Warden should have noticed the constant missing supplies. And, added to that, the prisoner/warrior attacking Iva just a few chapters ago really ruined the mystique of the area, making it seem like just any prisoner could have found the place. But, in the end, I am going to wait and see if there is a specific reason for Iva to be in Impell Down (i.e. was he simply captured and imprisoned, or did he come there to scope out the place?...etc).

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Originally Posted by holypanl View Post
I'm fed up of pointing this out, but: Why are the Strawhats still moving around so freely with a captain who has a bounty of B$ 300,000,000? The first mate is a supernova, and all the rest of the crew are worth an average of 20-30 mil each. These people should be seen as dangerous.
That has also always struck me as weird. There should be a bounty hunter union or bureau on the Grand Line somewhere that gets paid to take down pirates. My best guess is that the Shichibukai act as something of a bounty hunter group at times (considering that they can get paid for bringing in pirates (and they can keep the pirates loot at the same time)).
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Old 2009-04-15, 18:47   Link #283
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Any way, I have lost interest in this discussion, but if you gents want to contiue be my guest, and have the last say on this topic.
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I'm not arguing that. In fact, I agree with you. However, I disagree that this show of strength is proof that the Whitebeard pirates are stronger then the Revolution.
dam it guess i joined the party too late, and here i was hoping to get some feedback on my pov ill be much obliged though if u did see my post on 13
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Old 2009-04-15, 20:25   Link #284
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I was kinda hoping that this Arc and the upcoming battle against WB was gonna lead to BB moving the government to victory and starting to put Luffy in an allied position with Shanks, Dragon, and Roger's former crew members.

If BB is smart and he plays his cards right in this battle, he could heavily abuse one of the other powers to get him towards the end of the Grand Line if he wanted to crush the whole New World.

With Ace, Luffy would have anyone left from WB's army behind him after this rescue. Who knows, maybe even WB himself could end up supporting Luffy. Luffy is very quickly crossing the line from pirate to rebel anyways in the eyes of the government. Hes effectively forced them to destroy one of their own marine bases and now he is almost at the highest level of the government's prison running amok. Hes gonna need help from some of the big players after this.

They have made it evidently clear that Luffy's greatest ability is that almost everybody he encounters ends up liking or following him.

Seems to me the logical place to take the story would be him allying up things like the other Yonkous, the Rebel Army, possibly even some of the Shichibukai....


On a side note:

Have they ever actually implied just how powerful the Rebel faction is in comparison to the major powers? Clearly Iva is pretty freaking strong and they've labelled Dragon as the most dangerous man alive right? I mean what does this Rebel Army even do? Maybe they're just completely littered around the New World keeping everyone from reaching the end.

At least we know how Sanji is connected to where Luffy is now too. At some point the crew is gonna have to meet up.... Maybe they'll all end up going to Impel Down while this is goin on.

I bet Kuma is a rebel and all his paws send you to someplace with rebel connections.
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Old 2009-04-15, 21:27   Link #285
Blackbeard D. Kuma
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Originally Posted by SMASHERJACKSON View Post
dam it guess i joined the party too late, and here i was hoping to get some feedback on my pov ill be much obliged though if u did see my post on 13
First off, welcome to the forums. I'll comment on that post of yours since you would really appreciate it.

Just to let you know, no one ignored your post. It's just that the debate regarding who's stronger between the revolutionaries and the Whitebeard pirates has gotten really tiring and I,along with everyone else I assume, wanted to give it a rest.

I agree with your analysis on how you came to the conclusion that Dragon is undoubtedly more powerful than Ace and Smoker. That's axiomatic when considering the valid reasons you gave. However, you do have the power balance wrong. It's MHQ = Shichibukai = Yonkou, and this information can be found in the "Grand Line Times" in one of the databooks (Yellow I believe). Remember, the MHQ and Shichibukai are two conflicting groups of equal power, and Garp stated that they are the only forces that can stand up to the Yonkou.

As for the strength comparison between the revolutonaries and Whitebeard's crew, we simply can't say which faction is stronger at the moment because we haven't seen either faction fight seriously yet. We don't know the potential/capabilities of either group, and so we can't assess how they compare to each other strength wise. Furthermore, Whitebeard's crew is renowned as the strongest pirate crew, but the revolutionaries are not pirates, and hence there is no indication of the former being stronger than the latter. At this point, anyone who tells you the former is stronger than the latter and vice versa is spouting out a bunch of crap and declaring their assumptions as fact.
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Old 2009-04-15, 21:39   Link #286
Phenomenal
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Originally Posted by Lightmgl View Post
They have made it evidently clear that Luffy's greatest ability is that almost everybody he encounters ends up liking or following him.
That's cause Luffy is retarded and people feel sympathy for him and Luffy always shows kindness to the abused and spiritually scared people [Nami, Hancock: ect. ].

Luffy sucks, where is Zoro, the BEST SH member....

Last edited by Phenomenal; 2009-04-15 at 21:54.
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Old 2009-04-16, 03:41   Link #287
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The reason why Younkou are so strong (beside badass captains) is becuase they have hell lot of people in them. Whitebeard has like 16 division commanders and that gives at least 500 people I guess.

About dragons... I'm just saying that such DF could be overpowered. Ace is fire man, and there are 5 flying Zoans and we already saw one. We saw also how badass a dinosaur can get. Combine all those 3 DF together and you might get a dragon, or you can get something that is "illogical" when it really happens.
Combining super strenght like Drake has (or stronger) with flying at super speed, and give it a boast of firebreathing would cause a giant limitation for the character. Like he can breath fire, but don't create super novas, he can fly but he can go invisible fast. Otherwise that would be really 3 DevilFruits in one.
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Old 2009-04-16, 12:24   Link #288
SMASHERJACKSON
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Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma View Post
I agree with your analysis on how you came to the conclusion that Dragon is undoubtedly more powerful than Ace and Smoker. That's axiomatic when considering the valid reasons you gave. However, you do have the power balance wrong. It's MHQ = Shichibukai = Yonkou, and this information can be found in the "Grand Line Times" in one of the databooks (Yellow I believe). Remember, the MHQ and Shichibukai are two conflicting groups of equal power, and Garp stated that they are the only forces that can stand up to the Yonkou.

As for the strength comparison between the revolutonaries and Whitebeard's crew, we simply can't say which faction is stronger at the moment because we haven't seen either faction fight seriously yet. We don't know the potential/capabilities of either group, and so we can't assess how they compare to each other strength wise. Furthermore, Whitebeard's crew is renowned as the strongest pirate crew, but the revolutionaries are not pirates, and hence there is no indication of the former being stronger than the latter. At this point, anyone who tells you the former is stronger than the latter and vice versa is spouting out a bunch of crap and declaring their assumptions as fact.
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Originally Posted by SMASHERJACKSON View Post
============= BRIEF SUMMARY ===========
where DA is dragons army, MHQ = Marine Headquarters 7sea= shicunbukai and WB =whitebeard pirate fleet

if WG [MHQ + 7sea] = 4Yonkou
and DA = WG [biggest threat to them blah blah, read the post again]
then DA = 4Yonkou

WB = 1 of Yonkou
as DA = 4Yonkou
WB = 1/4 of DA
I thought both the WG + Shicinbukai wer required to keep the yonkou inline? if my perception is the case....

MHQ + 7sea = 4 yonkou
and MHQ = 7sea
then 4yonkou = 2MHQ
or 2Yonkou = MHQ

If DA is greatest physical threat in temrs of combatants to MHQ/ DA > MHQ
it would make them > 2 Yonkou

as WB is 1 Yonkou, there threat is 1/2 that of DA - but as its been said its still unclear if this threat is in temrs of physical force, ideolgy or a mix of both - but it is still a threat in terms of overthrowing current powers, so regardless of pirate or marine it still is a force either way capable of effectively destroying an organization/union [thnk of the idealogy as a weapon or a telepathic DF ]

also thank you for responding, ive been a lurker here for a long time and didnt want all the time i spent to write that wall of text to go to waste

Last edited by SMASHERJACKSON; 2009-04-16 at 13:18.
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Old 2009-04-16, 12:27   Link #289
marvelB
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The reason why Younkou are so strong (beside badass captains) is becuase they have hell lot of people in them. Whitebeard has like 16 division commanders and that gives at least 500 people I guess.

Actually, Whitebeard has 1,600 people in his crew (that is, each of the 16 divisions are 100 men strong). But I feel rather certain myself that the commanders are Newgate's top fighting forces. Of course I want to see Marco and Jozu in action, but I'm still pretty interested in checking out the rest of the commanders, as well (I wonder if they've found a replacement for the guy that got killed by Blackbeard yet....?).
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Old 2009-04-16, 13:06   Link #290
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Actually, Whitebeard has 1,600 people in his crew (that is, each of the 16 divisions are 100 men strong). But I feel rather certain myself that the commanders are Newgate's top fighting forces. Of course I want to see Marco and Jozu in action, but I'm still pretty interested in checking out the rest of the commanders, as well (I wonder if they've found a replacement for the guy that got killed by Blackbeard yet....?).
I agree, I have many questions that I hope will be answered during the war, but out of all of them, the one of the biggest for me is, who is Whitebeards 1st mate? He has to be somewhere amoung the 16 divions.
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Old 2009-04-16, 13:17   Link #291
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I always figured that Whitebeard's first mate was Marco, since he's the first division's commander. Both him and Jozu seem to have the most seniority in the crew so I guess either of those two could be the first mate (I still think it's Marco, though)....
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Old 2009-04-16, 13:23   Link #292
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Originally Posted by Phenomenal View Post
That's cause Luffy is retarded and people feel sympathy for him and Luffy always shows kindness to the abused and spiritually scared people [Nami, Hancock: ect. ].

Luffy sucks, where is Zoro, the BEST SH member....
For someone who is supposed to be very strict on canon, you have a lot of speculative guesses on character personality there, especially since no one really seemed sympathetic.

Also, it's "where as" not "where is." I do, however, agree that Zoro is the best member.


Quote:
About dragons... I'm just saying that such DF could be overpowered. Ace is fire man, and there are 5 flying Zoans and we already saw one. We saw also how badass a dinosaur can get. Combine all those 3 DF together and you might get a dragon, or you can get something that is "illogical" when it really happens.
Combining super strenght like Drake has (or stronger) with flying at super speed, and give it a boast of firebreathing would cause a giant limitation for the character. Like he can breath fire, but don't create super novas, he can fly but he can go invisible fast. Otherwise that would be really 3 DevilFruits in one.
There is nothing to imply that a dragon has to be big, strong, or have the ability to fly and breath fire. The only real dragon we have is the komodo dragon, and they're just giant lizards (but not much bigger than a teenager). Even in myths, not all of them are everything you described. There's also the case that, if I'm correct, the Japanese consider sea horses a type of "dragon." If that's the case, we might see the only DF user who can swim.

[EDIT]
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Originally Posted by wikipedia
Japanese dragon myths amalgamate native legends with imported stories about dragons from China, Korea and India. Like these other Asian dragons, most Japanese ones are water deities associated with rainfall and bodies of water, and are typically depicted as large, wingless, serpentine creatures with clawed feet. Gould writes (1896:248)[3], the Japanese dragon is "invariably figured as possessing three claws"
Upon further study, I found that only European dragons have wings, but even they live in caves and underground lairs. None have been mentioned to breath fire much. All are described as being large though.
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Old 2009-04-16, 13:28   Link #293
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I always figured that Whitebeard's first mate was Marco, since he's the first division's commander. Both him and Jozu seem to have the most seniority in the crew so I guess either of those two could be the first mate (I still think it's Marco, though)....
Thing is Marco looks as if he is Shanks age, and during Rogers Days, I don't see a guy like that keeping the Dark King in line, druing a battle. If Marco is Newgates 1st mate, shouldn't he be like around Whitebeard/Drak kings age, not saying I know there ages, but they look pretty old, while Marco looks pretty young. I think Oda is planing on suprising us readers with his 16 divisons. When Whitebeard and Red head, had the meeting, Marco and Jouz where the only crew men (who matter) shown, it was big but not that big of a impact on us readers, for this is a crew who had countless battles with the Pirate Kings Crew. I think Oda is saving the best of the 16 Comanders, to be properly introduced, when the war is about to set off. imo

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Old 2009-04-16, 13:57   Link #294
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Originally Posted by iKumdo View Post
For someone who is supposed to be very strict on canon, you have a lot of speculative guesses on character personality there, especially since no one really seemed sympathetic.

Also, it's "where as" not "where is." I do, however, agree that Zoro is the best member.
Wow, we got iKumdo in da house yall........
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Old 2009-04-16, 14:30   Link #295
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Thing is Marco looks as if he is Shanks age, and during Rogers Days, I don't see a guy like that keeping the Dark King in line, druing a battle. If Marco is Newgates 1st mate, shouldn't he be like around Whitebeard/Drak kings age, not saying I know there ages, but they look pretty old, while Marco looks pretty young. I think Oda is planing on suprising us readers with his 16 divisons. When Whitebeard and Red head, had the meeting, Marco and Jouz where the only crew men (who matter) shown, it was big but not that big of a impact on us readers, for this is a crew who had countless battles with the Pirate Kings Crew. I think Oda is saving the best of the 16 Comanders, to be properly introduced, when the war is about to set off. imo
Oda can create new badass characters just like that, and a good example of that are supernovas.
There is another 12 new badass characters coming up if all will be introduced.
Whitebeard is 2 commanders short since one was killed and one is actually captured.

I take dragon from what I read in books and saw in games (Warhammer), and they are many kinds: small&big, gold, red, black. Dragons like treasures, and doesn't like dwarfs :P

Eastern dragons are for parades and parades are gay.

swim swim fruit that grands you ability to swin very well... even that sounds creazy, not to mention giving this as a crossover of abilities.
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Old 2009-04-16, 14:38   Link #296
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Originally Posted by JINBEI View Post
Thing is Marco looks as if he is Shanks age, and during Rogers Days, I don't see a guy like that keeping the Dark King in line, druing a battle. If Marco is Newgates 1st mate, shouldn't he be like around Whitebeard/Drak kings age, not saying I know there ages, but they look pretty old, while Marco looks pretty young. I think Oda is planing on suprising us readers with his 16 divisons. When Whitebeard and Red head, had the meeting, Marco and Jouz where the only crew men (who matter) shown, it was big but not that big of a impact on us readers, for this is a crew who had countless battles with the Pirate Kings Crew. I think Oda is saving the best of the 16 Comanders, to be properly introduced, when the war is about to set off. imo
While I certainly agree that the "2nd in command" could as yet not have been introduced (and I agree with your analysis that Marco and company did not make a large splash upon their introduction), the fact that Marco (or any others) weren't around to fight Rayleigh is somewhat inconsequential to the discussion. Who ever the 2nd in command turns out to be, it really doesn't matter that much if they had or had not battled Rayleigh in the past. That is ultimately a peripheral detail with no real bearing on the story.

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I take dragon from what I read in books and saw in games (Warhammer), and they are many kinds: small&big, gold, red, black. Dragons like treasures, and doesn't like dwarfs :P
And Hobbits, don't forget Hobbits.

...and Elves named Vaarsuvius...
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Old 2009-04-16, 15:26   Link #297
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And Hobbits, don't forget Hobbits.

...and Elves named Vaarsuvius...
Why hobbits? It's dwarfs that loves to sneak into their lair and steal parts their gold chair/bed. Unless dragon mistake hobbit for dwarf they're cool.


I know that Blackbeard can nulify the ability of DF user, but I doubt that there will be a user that can clone other's people abilities - we have Bon-chan that can copy only the appearance.
Dualclassing is bad, don't mix warrior with archer, Aragorn you noob.
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Old 2009-04-16, 15:49   Link #298
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Oda can create new badass characters just like that, and a good example of that are supernovas.
There is another 12 new badass characters coming up if all will be introduced.
Whitebeard is 2 commanders short since one was killed and one is actually captured.
This is true.

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Originally Posted by james0246
While I certainly agree that the "2nd in command" could as yet not have been introduced (and I agree with your analysis that Marco and company did not make a large splash upon their introduction), the fact that Marco (or any others) weren't around to fight Rayleigh is somewhat inconsequential to the discussion. Who ever the 2nd in command turns out to be, it really doesn't matter that much if they had or had not battled Rayleigh in the past. That is ultimately a peripheral detail with no real bearing on the story.
That wasn't the point of I was trying to hit. The point I was aiming for is it would really be a head scratcher if Marco who might be around the same age as Shanks (who during the days of Rogers, was a simple Cabin Boy) was the 1st mate of Whitebeards crew, and in the world of One Piece, 1st mates usually fight 1st mates. It would be kinda funny (Out side the SH crew) that such a young pup call hang with a beast like the Dark King at his age. I'm Not saying that this is a Key point in the story and Oda gone bat sh*t insane etc etc, just saying that when it comes down to if or if not Marco is the 1st mate topic, I can throw out that little thought, since Whitebeards Crew fought Rogers Crew many times.
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Old 2009-04-16, 16:20   Link #299
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That wasn't the point of I was trying to hit. The point I was aiming for is it would really be a head scratcher if Marco who might be around the same age as Shanks (who during the days of Rogers, was a simple Cabin Boy) was the 1st mate of Whitebeards crew, and in the world of One Piece, 1st mates usually fight 1st mates. It would be kinda funny (Out side the SH crew) that such a young pup call hang with a beast like the Dark King at his age. I'm Not saying that this is a Key point in the story and Oda gone bat sh*t insane etc etc, just saying that when it comes down to if or if not Marco is the 1st mate topic, I can throw out that little thought, since Whitebeards Crew fought Rogers Crew many times.
Arguably, since Shanks is one of the Yonkou, it could be said that he is comparable in strength to Rayleigh by now (if for no other reason than both have fought in their brief skirmishes using the same basic style), and, as you have said, Shanks was only a cabin boy during those early batttles with Whitebeard. Now, imagine if Marco was also a cabin boy on Whitebeard's ship during those battles (which is extraordinarily possible since he is of similar age to Shanks (and Shanks knew him quite well)). Isn't it possible that Marco followed the same rise in power that Shanks did, to the point were he is now comparable in strength to Rayleigh?

Again, it does not really matter if Rayleigh ever fought Marco (or whomever turns out to be the 1st mate). All that matters is current strengths and abilities. If Marco does turn out to be the 1st mate then all we can say is that he is Whitebeard's first mate.

To put it another way, we can not really theorize a possible first mate that could have potentially battled Rayleigh at some point in the past considering the fact that we do ot even know Rayleighs strengths, let alone Marco's or Shanks or even Whitebeard's). So, let's save semi-useless supposition until after we have some actual data to discuss the situation.
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Old 2009-04-16, 16:38   Link #300
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Arguably, since Shanks is one of the Yonkou, it could be said that he is comparable in strength to Rayleigh by now (if for no other reason than both have fought in their brief skirmishes using the same basic style), and, as you have said, Shanks was only a cabin boy during those early batttles with Whitebeard. Now, imagine if Marco was also a cabin boy on Whitebeard's ship during those battles (which is extraordinarily possible since he is of similar age to Shanks (and Shanks knew him quite well)). Isn't it possible that Marco followed the same rise in power that Shanks did, to the point were he is now comparable in strength to Rayleigh?
Yes its possible, but then Marco wouldn't be Whitebeards 1st mate, at least not back then and maybe not now, if the 1st mate is still alive or not. If Marco rose to power like Shanks did, from being a cabin boy. Which is my point.

Quote:
Again, it does not really matter if Rayleigh ever fought Marco (or whomever turns out to be the 1st mate).
Again, I'm not saying it matters just me thinking out loud.

Quote:
All that matters is current strengths and abilities.
I don't know about you, but I would love to know about what the seas where like back in Rogers days, and what his powers and abilities are.

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If Marco does turn out to be the 1st mate then all we can say is that he is Whitebeard's first mate.
Oh thanks, I will be sure to remember that.
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