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Old 2009-04-13, 14:35   Link #141
Blackbeard D. Kuma
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Originally Posted by JINBEI View Post
The one that is apart of the World Powers (Whitebeard Pirates) that is going to engage you, rather then the threat (Dargon & gender bender friends) who is not strong enough to be apart of the World Powers, who won't head on engage you.
I'm going to have to disagree with this. Just because Dragon's revolutionary army is not a part of the world powers, it doesn't mean that they are not strong enough to become one. If the power and influence of the revolutionaries can cause major concern for the World Government (even more so than the emperors), then you can be assured that they are the biggest threat (which they are since it has been explicitly stated). Furthermore, common sense and shonen logic dictate that Dragon is going to be extremely powerful.

- He is the father of protagonist Monkey D. Luffy
- He is the leader of the revolutionaries, who are in direct contention with the World Government
- He has a D. in his name, so you know that he is going to be damn strong (there hasn't been an exception so far)
- He is the most wanted man in the world

All of these things automatically put him and his fellow revolutionaries in the top tier. This cannot be disputed. He may not be as powerful as Whitebeard, but will definitely be in the top tier of strength.
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Old 2009-04-13, 14:54   Link #142
Master Mold
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Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma View Post
I'm going to have to disagree with this. Just because Dragon's revolutionary army is not a part of the world powers, it doesn't mean that they are not strong enough to become one. If the power and influence of the revolutionaries can cause major concern for the World Government (even more so than the emperors), then you can be assured that they are the biggest threat (which they are since it has been explicitly stated). Furthermore, common sense and shonen logic dictate that Dragon is going to be extremely powerful.
The other world powers, have Whitebeard Pirates in mind in this up coming war, Not Dragons gang. in fact it doesn't even look like the WG informed the MHQ and the Seven Armed Seas about Dragon and revolutionaries getting an invitation to the bash, if Dragon was a great a threat as the Whitebeard Pirates are strength wise, the WG would have informed there powers, but that is not the case.



Quote:
- He is the father of protagonist Monkey D. Luffy
- He is the leader of the revolutionaries, who are in direct contention with the World Government
- He has a D. in his name, so you know that he is going to be damn strong (there hasn't been an exception so far)
- He is the most wanted man in the world

All of these things automatically put him and his fellow revolutionaries in the top tier. This cannot be disputed. He may not be as powerful as Whitebeard, but will definitely be in the top tier of strength.
I was not debating Dragons personal strength is not top tier. I was debating that the strength of the Dragon's revolutionary army is not above the Whitebeard Pirates.
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Old 2009-04-13, 15:17   Link #143
james0246
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Originally Posted by JINBEI View Post
The other world powers, have Whitebeard Pirates in mind in this up coming war, Not Dragons gang. in fact it doesn't even look like the WG informed the MHQ and the Seven Armed Seas about Dragon and revolutionaries getting an invitation to the bash, if Dragon was a great a threat as the Whitebeard Pirates are strength wise, the WG would have informed there powers, but that is not the case.
Why would they think that Dragon would be involved in the upcoming war? Ace's and Luffy's lineage is hidden knowledge that only a select few in the entire world know. So, it is not as if the WG necessarily knows of the connection between Luffy and Dragon (to put it another way, how many years did the CP9 waste pretending to be shiphands when they, in the end, simply burned down Iceburg's mansion and stole the info from him anyway...so it is not as if the WG has a very reliable info network (though they do have great photographers that can seemingly walk up to any p[irate and get their picture ), so they are not preparing to battle Dragon and his revolutionaries not because they do not consider them a threat (which is plainly fallacious), but because they have no reason to assume that he will attack. Added to that, the WG could be mustering all their forces because they actually desire to destroy Whitebeard as quickly as possible just in case Dragon (or the other Yonkou) atacks.

Or, this could all be a plot twist, and Iva's words in this chapter a foreshadowing of Dragon's emergeance and the WG's retaliation.

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Originally Posted by JINBEI View Post
I was not debating Dragons personal strength is not top tier. I was debating that the strength of the Dragon's revolutionary army is not above the Whitebeard Pirates.
And, as others have already said, this is almost impossible to actually argue for or against. Both have nations under their leadership, and both have significant titles to their names, but their military strength is completely unknown. While Whitebeard may have 1600 crewmates, its a good bet that 1550 of them are grunts that will be taken out by the marine grunts. And absolutely nothing is known about Dragon's forces besides the fact that they have conquered dozens upon dozens of countries. So, there is no real realm of comparison between the two forces, and trying to say that one is less than or greater than the other is unprovable with the current data.

Last edited by james0246; 2009-04-13 at 15:28.
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Old 2009-04-13, 15:25   Link #144
Blackbeard D. Kuma
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Originally Posted by JINBEI View Post
The other world powers, have Whitebeard Pirates in mind in this up coming war, Not Dragons gang. in fact it doesn't even look like the WG informed the MHQ and the Seven Armed Seas about Dragon and revolutionaries getting an invitation to the bash, if Dragon was a great a threat as the Whitebeard Pirates are strength wise, the WG would have informed there powers, but that is not the case.
At this point in time, we simply don't know whether or not the MHQ and Shichibukai were informed of a possible intervention from Dragon by the World Government. Like I said before, the World Government must have had the foresight to know that there is a very high possibility Dragon could get involved. If they have any plans for such a contingency (which they most likely do), then the smart thing to do would be to let their allied world powers know about it, otherwise they (MHQ and Shichibukai) are going to be completely oblivious to what is going on and consequently caught off guard. Such ignorance could really hurt them and the World Government certainly doesn't want that since they intend to win, obviously.

With that being said, I think the MHQ and Shichibukai are aware of the possibility of Dragon making some kind of move. Sengoku is at least one of the few people that would know, considering how he always reports things to the World Government and has conversations with them concerning the world's affairs.

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Originally Posted by JINBEI View Post
I was not debating Dragons personal strength is not top tier. I was debating that the strength of the Dragon's revolutionary army is not above the Whitebeard Pirates.
Until proven otherwise (which will happen ), yes it is true that Whitebeard and his crew are the very best. But, so what? Whitebeard is presumably stronger than everybody else in this upcoming war, and yet they're still getting involved. Being weaker than Whitebeard doesn't render you obsolete in how practical you can be in this war.

Furthermore, Strength isn't everything. The overall threat of a person doesn't solely depend on strength alone. Dragon may not be stronger than Whitebeard, but there are other factors (tactics, intelligence, ideals, etc.) that make him more dangerous in the eyes of the World Government than Whitebeard.
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Old 2009-04-13, 15:42   Link #145
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
Why would they think that Dragon would be involved in the upcoming war?Ace's and Luffy's lineage is hidden knowledge that only a select few in the entire world know. So, it is not as if the WG necessarily knows of the connection between Luffy and Dragon (to put it another way, how many years did the CP9 waste pretending to be shiphands when they, in the end, simply burned down Iceburg's mansion and stole the info from him anyway...so it is not as if the WG has a very reliable info network (though they do have great photographers that can seemingly walk up to any p[irate and get their picture ),
Garp has a loud mouth.


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Or, this could all be a plot twist, and Iva's words in this chapter a foreshadowing of Dragon's emergeance and the WG's retaliation.
maybe, we will know in a few years.

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so they are not preparing to battle Dragon and his revolutionaries not because they do not consider them a threat (which is plainly fallacious), but because they have no reason to assume that he will attack. Added to that, the WG could be mustering all their forces because they actually desire to destroy Whitebeard as quickly as possible just in case Dragon (or the other Yonkou) atacks.
Ah man, I never said the WG don't don't consider The cross dressing army a threat, I'm saying they are not as big a threat as the Whitebeard Pirates strength wise, in this up coming war.

Quote:
And, as others have already said, this is almost impossible to actually argue for or against. Both have nations under their leadership, and both have significant titles to their names, but their military strength is completely unknown. While Whitebeard may have 1600 crewmates, its a good bet that 1550 of them are grunts that will be taken out by the marine grunts. And absolutely nothing is known about Dragon's forces besides the fact that they have conquered dozens upon dozens of countries. So, there is no real realm of comparison between the two forces, and trying to say that one is less than or greater than the other is unprovable with the current data.
With the current Data Whitebeard Pirates > Dragons army.

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Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma
At this point in time, we simply don't know whether or not the MHQ and Shichibukai were informed of a possible intervention from Dragon by the World Government. Like I said before, the World Government must have had the foresight to know that there is a very high possibility Dragon could get involved. If they have any plans for such a contingency (which they most likely do), then the smart thing to do would be to let their allied world powers know about it, otherwise they (MHQ and Shichibukai) are going to be completely oblivious to what is going on and consequently caught off guard. Such ignorance could really hurt them and the World Government certainly doesn't want that since they intend to win, obviously.

With that being said, I think the MHQ and Shichibukai are aware of the possibility of Dragon making some kind of move. Sengoku is at least one of the few people that would know, considering how he always reports things to the World Government and has conversations with them concerning the world's affairs.
Thats just strengths my argument, For the bigger threat (Whitebeard Pirates) is in mind and brought up occasionally, while the lesser threat (Dragon army) is not. Its like 2 (WG and Whitebeard Pirates) country's who have nuclear weapons are about to go to war, while a terrorist group (Dragons army) who do not posses nuclear weapons, is about to join in. The bigger threat is the country who has nuclear weapons, and the lesser threat is the terrorist group who does not.

Quote:
Until proven otherwise (which will happen ), yes it is true that Whitebeard and his crew are the very best. But, so what? Whitebeard is presumably stronger than everybody else in this upcoming war, and yet they're still getting involved. Being weaker than Whitebeard doesn't render you obsolete in how practical you can be in this war.
I agree.

Quote:
Furthermore, Strength isn't everything. The overall threat of a person doesn't solely depend on strength alone. Dragon may not be stronger than Whitebeard, but there are other factors (tactics, intelligence, ideals, etc.) that make him more dangerous in the eyes of the World Government than Whitebeard.
and thats what I was stressing, which I agree with.

Edit:and "Strength ISN'T everything," tell that to Doflamingo.

Last edited by Master Mold; 2009-04-13 at 15:53. Reason: joke
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Old 2009-04-13, 15:54   Link #146
Blackbeard D. Kuma
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Originally Posted by JINBEI View Post
Thats just strengths my argument, For the bigger threat (Whitebeard Pirates) is in mind and brought up occasionally, while the lesser threat (Dragon army) is not. Its like 2 (WG and Whitebeard Pirates) country's who have nuclear weapons are about to go to war, while a terrorist group (Dragons army) who do not posses nuclear weapons, is about to join in. The bigger threat is the country who has nuclear weapons, and the lesser threat is the terrorist group who does not.
I guess the analogy you're trying to make here, is that those who have the nuclear weapons (WG and Whitebeard's crew) have more fighting power/strength than those who do not (Dragon's army), which you have been advocating all this time correct? You're basically saying that Whitebeard's forces are stronger than Dragon's forces with the current information. Again though, I never argued against this. What I disagreed with was the fact that you said Dragon's revolutionary army is not strong enough to be considered a part of the World powers.
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Old 2009-04-13, 15:56   Link #147
Master Mold
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Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma View Post
I guess the analogy you're trying to make here, is that those who have the nuclear weapons (WG and Whitebeard's crew) have more fighting power/strength than those who do not (Dragon's army), which you have been advocating all this time correct? You're basically saying that Whitebeard's forces are stronger than Dragon's forces with the current information. Again though, I never argued against this. What I disagreed with was the fact that you said Dragon's revolutionary army is not strong enough to be considered a part of the World powers.
Oh, Ok.

If they where, wouldn't they?
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Old 2009-04-13, 16:07   Link #148
Blackbeard D. Kuma
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Originally Posted by JINBEI View Post
If they where, wouldn't they?
Here's the way I've always looked at it. We have the three world powers (MHQ, Shichibukai, and Yonkou) that form a delicate balance of stability in the One Piece world. Beyond that, there is the World Government and Revolutionary army that are in constant opposition with each other. Even though they are not considered world powers, their power and influence are unrivaled and both must have a formidable fighting strength because they are greatly feared. This tells me that they do have the strength to be world powers, but they do not wish to establish themselves as such because there is already a balance of power that keeps the peace from crumbling.
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Old 2009-04-13, 16:14   Link #149
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There isint a release this week for One piece right? but will there be an release for naruto and bleach?
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Old 2009-04-13, 16:16   Link #150
Blackbeard D. Kuma
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There isint a release this week for One piece right? but will there be an release for naruto and bleach?
Yes. No One Piece this week, unfortunately. As for Naruto and Bleach, I think there will be chapters for them this week.
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Old 2009-04-13, 16:29   Link #151
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There isint a release this week for One piece right? but will there be an release for naruto and bleach?
Here's what I can tell from the schedule at a certain raw site: Current chapter (539) came out in Jump 2009 #20. Issue #21 is due as normal this week and One Piece has been listed as absent. Nothing I'm aware of indicates Naruto or Bleach are absent.

The following week's Jump is issue #22-23 (a double-week issue because of Golden Week) and has One Piece on the front page. That seems to have Naruto and Bleach as well (Eyeshield 21 marked as absent). The next issue of Jump (#24) will be 2 weeks after that.
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Old 2009-04-13, 16:37   Link #152
Master Mold
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Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma View Post
Here's the way I've always looked at it. We have the three world powers (MHQ, Shichibukai, and Yonkou) that form a delicate balance of stability in the One Piece world. Beyond that, there is the World Government and Revolutionary army that are in constant opposition with each other. Even though they are not considered world powers, their power and influence are unrivaled and both must have a formidable fighting strength because they are greatly feared. This tells me that they do have the strength to be world powers, but they do not wish to establish themselves as such because there is already a balance of power that keeps the peace from crumbling.
Well the WG sword and shield are the MHQ and the Seven Armed Seven Armed Seas, who are conflicting groups. That speaks volumes about the WG's fighting power, and why the WG is feared. The Pirate world have a double edge Blade which is the Yonkou, who fights amongst each other and against the MHQ and Seven Armed Seven Armed Seas.

Dragon got an army, we have heard of Dragons acts of causing civil wars here and there and conquering lands that belong to the WG. The WG strongest fighting Powers exist to fight against the Yonkou, and not dragons army. Now Dragons making noise with his operation but not enough noise to make him into a power or a full on top priority of the WG like the Yonkou have done, which is why the Yonkou are apart of the World Powers.

I mean the WG's Seven Armed Seas and MHQ Powers exist to fight and keep the Yonkou in line, maybe the Seven Armed Seas other purpose is to liberate islands Dragon has control over, but that comes 2nd to existing to fight against/ keep the Yonkou in line.

I don't think Dragon can establish himself as a world power, for he is lacking in power and influence.
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Old 2009-04-13, 16:53   Link #153
Blackbeard D. Kuma
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I don't think Dragon can establish himself as a world power, for he is lacking in power and influence.
Dragon lacking in power and influence? You're joking right? The guy keeps on liberating islands and seizing them for his own control over them. His power and influence are both proliferating as the story progresses. Why do you think the World Government wants him dead and labels him as the world's most wanted man? The fact that the World Government considers him the biggest threat tells you that he has an abundance of power and influence on his side. It wouldn't make sense otherwise.
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Old 2009-04-13, 17:00   Link #154
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He is not a big Power threat, to the WG, thats the Yonkou, the WG using there strongest powers to fight the Yonkou, and not Dragon, hence why I said lacking in power. Dragon knowing/having the plans to make/find the location of a ancient weapon, could be why he is consider the most wanted man.
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Old 2009-04-13, 17:06   Link #155
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^Were are you getting this info from? How do you know what the WG has done or hasn't done to fight Dragon? Considering the fact that he has been around for at least 8 years, unless they have been completely ignoring him (which is impossible due to the title they have given him) its probably safe to say that he has battled Admirals and Vice-Admirals and a slew of other WG forces, or else he wouldn't be considered the Greatest threat within the One Piece world.

Even if you are correct, and Dragon does not have the prestige you keep saying he lacks, need I remind you of the plucky young pilot that flew a space fighter and fired one shot that destroyed a planet size space station? Power, prestige, strength, influence, none of that matters if you are at the right place, at the right time, and have the needed capablities to act. For all we know Whitebeard and the WG could be fighting, and because they ignored the possibility of an act by Dragon (which you are more or less claiming they are going to do simply because he does not fit with the agreed upon 3 Party system), he and his forces could sneak into Mariejois and kill the Gorousei and the Council of Kings, effectively destroying the entire WG.

Last edited by james0246; 2009-04-13 at 17:45.
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Old 2009-04-13, 17:11   Link #156
Blackbeard D. Kuma
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Originally Posted by JINBEI View Post
He is not a big Power threat, to the WG, thats the Yonkou, hence the WG using there strongest powers to fight the Yonkou, and not Dragon. Dragon knowing/having the plans to make/find the location of a ancient weapon, could be why he is consider the most most wanted man.
I don't know why you are belittling Dragon, because he definitely has power and influence. He is the leader of the revolutionaries; he is the world's most wanted man; he has expanded his empire by seizing numerous countries and kingdoms. How much more proof do you need to discern that he has great power on his side? And just to make something clear here, power is not the same thing as strength. When I am talking about power, I am talking about the dominance and control that Dragon has over his empire and territories, not how strong he is in a fight.

And if you want to talk about strength, I've already given you a few reasons to suggest why he and his army are going to be very powerful (top-tier caliber).
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Old 2009-04-13, 17:38   Link #157
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And what about the Vice-Admiral that's always grinning? He looks like the goofiest of the Buster Call VAs. And I also forgot the description of Vice-Admiral Strawberry.


You mean Yamakaji (the cigar-smoking VA)? Yeah, I think he's pretty awesome, too (and considering that Urouge, a character who had a goofy grin on his face 99.9% of the time was an asskicker, I expect to see Yamakaji tearing s*** up, too). Strawberry was the VA who resembled Blueno. Bu I'm still looking forward to the return of Doberman the most....



Oh, and just to remind everybody: THERE IS NO CHAPTER THIS WEEK. There'll be a chapter next week, but then we'll have an additional two-week break afterwards because of the Golden Week holiday......
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Old 2009-04-13, 17:44   Link #158
Master Mold
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^Were are you getting this info from?How do you know what the WG has done or hasn't done to fight Dragon? Considering the fact that he has been around for at least 8 years, unless they have been completely ignoring him (which is impossible due to the title they have given him) its probably safe to say that he has battled Admirals and Vice-Admirals and a slew of other WG forces, or else he wouldn't be considered the Greatest threat within the One Piece world.
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Originally Posted by Jinbei
He is not a big Power threat, to the WG, thats the Yonkou, hence the WG using there strongest powers to fight the Yonkou, and not Dragon. Dragon knowing/having the plans to make/find the location of a ancient weapon, could be why he is consider the most most wanted man.
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Even if you are correct, and Dragon does not have the prestige you keep saying he lacks, need I remind you of the plucky young pilot that flew a space fighter and fired one shot that destroyed a planet size space station? Power, pretige, strength, influence, none of that matters if you are at the right place, at the right time, and have the needed capablities to act. For all we know Whitebeard and the WG could be fighting, and because they ignored the possibility of an act by Dragon (which you are more or less claiming they are going to do simply because he does not fit with the agreed upon 3 Party system), he and his forces could sneak into Mariejois and kill the Gorousei and the Council of Kings, effectively destroying the entire WG.
I never said the WG would ignore Dragon, They will take good care of him of he makes a move.

about the plucky young pilot, lets hope Oda writing ain't crappy.

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Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma
I don't know why you are belittling Dragon, because he definitely has power and influence. He is the leader of the revolutionaries; he is the world's most wanted man; he has expanded his empire by seizing numerous countries and kingdoms. How much more proof do you need to discern that he has great power on his side? And just to make something clear here, power is not the same thing as strength. When I am talking about power, I am talking about the dominance and control that Dragon has over his empire and territories, not how strong he is in a fight.

And if you want to talk about strength, I've already given you a few reasons to suggest why he and his army are going to be very powerful (top-tier caliber).
He makes noise, I already gave him that, but it ain't loud enough compared to others.

How am I belittling Dragon and camp?

Last edited by Master Mold; 2009-04-13 at 17:47. Reason: the question.
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Old 2009-04-13, 17:49   Link #159
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^By the logic you are using above, then why wasn't Robin considered the most wanted female in the entire world? She had knowledge of the void century, the ability to decipher and, with pirate backing build, one of the superweapons. So, using your logic that Dragon is so feared because he could resurrect one of the superweapons (he obviously does not have one, or else Robin or Crocodile would have mentioned that already), then Robin should be equally as feared. So, why wasn't she? Because she was not part of an armed rebellion? That is not really sufficient reason considering that if Dragon is only feared due to his knowledge, then an Admiral or two could have simply stepped in to seize him (much the same as the CP9 seized Robin). Added to that, even if Dragon is the greatest tactician in the history of the world, as Phenomenal is so fond of saying, overwhelming might will always prevail.

To put it in very simplistic terms: If Dragon is so unimportant, then why is he still around? If you can provide sufficient reasoning for why a known criminal has not been brought to justice by a group you consider to be superior to the crminal, then please explain yourself, because otherwise what you are saying makes very little sense.
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Old 2009-04-13, 17:51   Link #160
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^By the logic you are using above, then why wasn't Robin considered the most wanted female in the entire world?
It was just an example, that one can gain the title of Most wanted tho knowledge and not strength like you guys are claiming, for if it was a title of strength Whitebeard would have it under his belt.
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