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Old 2009-04-13, 18:43   Link #1
felix
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Post New signature rules please

The main problem at the moment are those horrible ugly tables everyone keeps using. I keep blocking and blocking though scripts (since the forums limited feature is not enough) but this is getting ridiculas. Do we really need tables? I mean they do a hole lot of damage, and little to no good (see image on the right). I don't recall any thread/post that made good use of them, ever. And arguibly the hole position thing, can be easily done with floats when it is really useful, which are much nicer and flexible.

This "tables on the right makes it all better" is complete utter crap! (since there is no other way to phrase it) I'd much rather see those 30-60 line signatures, at least on those I just scroll down not to the side back and forth. Either get rid of tables or get rid of the 500px limit (I mean what is it there for?). Oh and of course there's version 3, "ignore it and hope it fixes itself".


What are signatures for anyway? seriously. As far as I know they are for information about this and that and whatever else you want to say and/or don't want to repeat in every post you make; initially: email, phone, location, --Name, important links, description etc. Not that a lot of people are using them here for that purpose (if any purpose at all). Do we need tables + 500x160 images to convey that, No! (so obviously what I'm used to is not what these signatures are for).

So what are the majority for? since I'm sure everyone who made the current rules had thought of this so as to keep them balanced.
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Old 2009-04-13, 20:42   Link #2
SeedFreedom
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Cats, you should read this thread from post 12 onwards. The rules, while not clear, state all text and images must fit the 500 pixel limit. the example you posted would be in violation of the signature rules.

As for tables in general, if they don't take up more than two lines i don't see why people shouldn't use them. Its not any different.

Edit:
*sigh* Silly me you already replied in that thread. Well anyways the signature rules should be updated that any text you have needs to fit in a 500 pixel box along with your picture. I'm not sure anymore if that is what your talking about or you dislike the tables in general, in which case i don't think we should ban tables if they fit in 500 pixels.
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Old 2009-04-13, 21:22   Link #3
chikorita157
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I don't think we should ban it completely because there are people who don't have tables like that, but in your example, it seems that the person did go a little bit overboard.

A possible solution to this is to have a 500pixel limit for people who uses text and image in the table... but not apply it to signatures that don't contain a table... (this means that the table must fit under the 500 pixel limit)
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Old 2009-04-13, 21:32   Link #4
felix
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99% of people have tables like that.

SeedFreedom:
The rules do not state this, they only mention images. I know what you mean; but with the ever increasing number of tables in signatures there should be a clear line carved out of what is acceptable and what is nonsense.

As for it should be "ok if it fits in 500px", watch this...
Blue line is 500px. Padding counts, measurement starts at signature delimiter limit.




BAD




BAD




BAD




BAD




BAD




Good, text will wrap, or to be precise words will. But lines like ____ won't.


I don't think we have a good enough ration of good:bad to actually say "it should be good if its under 500px". Actually Bun Bun above is probably the only sig that is good. There is also another issue. Some of them if you squeze them to size and lets say they have those long lines removed, will take a large amount of vertical space since they won't just wrap around the image, but rather display as 1 word per line.

I really do not see how floats are not way better for this, other then this annoying presentational nonsense. Also as has been mentioned, px is not measured with text (I do not see any specification in the rules as to what my default browser text should 1. look and 2. have default size).
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Old 2009-04-13, 21:49   Link #5
chikorita157
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It seems that the 500px limit won't work, but considering that most computers come with higher resolution monitors (at a minimum, 1280x800 resolution), it won't hurt to up the limit to 550px or 600px, but the problem is that if you use a mobile internet device such as a iPhone, it would become a hastle.

Of course, putting limits on tables may cause more complaints than just leaving it alone.
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Old 2009-04-13, 22:21   Link #6
SeedFreedom
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Well, im a little confused on your exact position on this matter. In your first post you seem to argue against tables all together, however if following the strict guidelines of the fourms, nothing needs to change as all reasonable signatures technically still fit within the size. The one you pointed to doesn't fit the current rules anyways and so the rules dont need to be changed. The ones you posted all technically all violated the rules and you could report them all if you are that against tables. If they squeeze over the 150 limit they also violate the rules.

However that brings me to what appears to be your second point which is that most of these signatures appear rather alright so the limit should acutally be increased instead to allow for this. I think i agree with this point more as 500 seems to be a arbitrary setting anyways which doesn't allow these more reasonable signatures. However in the past the mods have shot down the "change the limit because it was arbitrary" discussion.

If your arguing against them for personal dislike of them, i think the signature area is your area for personal expression. As long as it isn't too big to interfere with the operation of this forum or is offensive, it shouldn't be restricted.
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Old 2009-04-14, 03:22   Link #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chikorita157 View Post
It seems that the 500px limit won't work, but considering that most computers come with higher resolution monitors (at a minimum, 1280x800 resolution), it won't hurt to up the limit to 550px or 600px, but the problem is that if you use a mobile internet device such as a iPhone, it would become a hastle.

Of course, putting limits on tables may cause more complaints than just leaving it alone.
We already discussed about increasing the signature size, that's a no no.

--

But yeah, Cats. The first signature you shown was overally large and is what, maybe 1000+ pixels? That is way over the signature limit.
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Old 2009-04-14, 05:57   Link #8
felix
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The Small One: I'm do not use Window mode all the time, but lately I find myself in it all too often. I don't want to disable signatures; its not like I have a problem with the normal ones.

SeedFreedom: As I said this is just hear say, the rules do not specifically specify this since until now it was just a isolated incident; now they are everywhere. We need clearer rules!

Quote:
  • Images Only
    50,000 bytes or less: Maximum of 500 pixels wide x 160 pixels tall
  • Image and Text
    Signatures with both text and images may have a maximum of two (2) lines of text, assuming the default font size or smaller. Larger font sizes are not permitted.
    50,000 bytes or less: Maximum of 500 pixels wide x 120 pixels tall
The seccond is clearly identical to the first, obviously referring to just images.
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Old 2009-04-14, 06:23   Link #9
escimo
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As they are the current signature rules are a bit problematic as far as combination of images and text is concerned. At least I don't get the impression out of the rules that the text would have to fit within 500px with.

Quote:
Image and Text
Signatures with both text and images may have a maximum of two (2) lines of text, assuming the default font size or smaller. Larger font sizes are not permitted.
50,000 bytes or less: Maximum of 500 pixels wide x 120 pixels tall
Or does that mean that the text is counted in the file size limitation as well?
1 byte per character including ones used for formatting?

By the current rules this should be OK?
Text only so there's no mention of any limitations on width in pixels.
Random text. Random text. Random text. Random text. Random text. Random text. Random text. Random text. Random text. Random text.
Random text. Random text. Random text. Random text. Random text. Random text. Random text. Random text. Random text. Random text.
Random text. Random text. Random text. Random text. Random text. Random text. Random text. Random text. Random text. Random text.
Random text. Random text. Random text. Random text. Random text. Random text. Random text. Random text. Random text. Random text.
Random text. Random text. Random text. Random text. Random text. Random text. Random text. Random text. Random text. Random text.
Random text. Random text. Random text. Random text. Random text. Random text. Random text. Random text. Random text. Random text.
This would be quite generally viewed with 6 lines, since 1280px horizontal resolution should be enough for that. However if viewed at 800 pixels width it's already 12 lines, yet again, still just roughly 20-30 pixels above the 160px height limit. Actually you could fit 9 lines within 160px using default font size and even more using a smaller font size.


This is NOT OK? Since the image height is greater than 120px.

Random text.
Still fits quite neatly to 500x160pixel area.


How about something like this then. So very much NOT OK? Image and 6 lines of text but still well within 500x160px?

Random text.
Random text.
Random text.
Random text.
Random text.
Random text.


One solution could be creating a DIV for the signature in the site template with fixed size of 500x160 overlapping parts would just be hidden. Or just to specify that the signature must fit within the area of 500x160px and scrap the image size rules altogether, naturally in exception of the filesize limit. Of course in this case some kind of solution to test the signature before using it would be quite nice.

As far as tables are concerned it's a subject I'm not touching with a 60 foot pole.
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Old 2009-04-15, 03:58   Link #10
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From my discussion about signatures with a moderator (which I won't name), I've found out a few things.

1) The 500 pixel width is enforced as well as the 2 line rule if the text is below the image.
2) The 500 pixel width is also enforced if the text is used beside the image, but in a separate way:
-The text can be more than 2 lines, as long as it will wrap not past 160 px in height in a 500 px window.

What does this mean exactly? It means that this is legal:

When in doubt, use spoiler tags!
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Favorite Anime Clips (Spoilers): Byōsoku 5 Centimeter, Sana x Nanaka, Miyako, Makoto x Sekai, Nagisa, Tomoya x Kyou, Tomoyo

(This example was copied directly from the PM.)

Now, the width of the signature, image + text, is obviously not 500 px. However, the point is if when you restore the browser to a width of 500 px, the text does not wrap beyond 160 px. (The image is almost 250 px, which means you can restore your browser to the width of about double the image to text out text wrapping). The moderator also noted that this is possible because the font size is small. If the font size were normal, then the same text would have been illegal.

I hope that clears up a bit of things. If we follow this rule, then from Cats' post:

1: Good (if wrapped)
2: Good (if wrapped)
3: Bad
4: Bad
5: Good (if wrapped)
6: Good (if wrapped)



Now, I think that this is ridiculous, although I do thank the moderator for explaining the signature rules to me without giving me a warning.

As I hinted to in the other thread, we no longer live in the time of 800 x 600. The most ancient computer I've come across is 1024 x 768. Assuming that the 500 px width rule was created for 800 x 600 resolution, I suggest that the limit of the 2 lines of text under the signature and total width of tables should be increased to 640 (after some math). The limits of the image can stay the same. Tables can stay the same if it works like the way the moderator says it does. The example in Cats' first post is ridiculous and illegal. I personally have no problem with all of the examples in Cats' next post, which would be legal if we change the width limit to 640 pixels.

I really hope my idea comes into consideration.
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Old 2009-04-15, 12:29   Link #11
felix
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KholdStare View Post
As I hinted to in the other thread, we no longer live in the time of 800 x 600. The most ancient computer I've come across is 1024 x 768.
Statistically, while not a majority, a lot of people don't view full screen (I think last time I checked some statistics, it was 20% or so), and around 800 ~ 900 is the usual "happy" width for windows. There are also people who have such things like panels in their browser but this is a very small fraction compared to the just mention.

There are a lot of reasons for this, take people with very wide monitors. A lot of people I see that dual monitors with a 6:4 use full screen on that and window mode on the widescreen; since the "you have to move your head to read" way is not very liked. Then there is the hole issue with reading habbits...

From what I've come to understand when you are not too familiar with the language people will tend to read and focus on a lot of letters in silables (these are usually the people who will ask for large fonts and so on). For them there is not much concern with line-height since they focus a lot of individual letters anyway.

When you get familiar the language the normal way of reading would appear to be reading silables, people that read like this prefer medium size text (14pt or so) and want somewhere around .5 of the typeface's x-height spacing betwean lines (also, don't have too much love for extremely large or "colorful" fonts).

However, the more you read though you start to just scan text; I personally don't even read silables anymore, words are just very long glyphs I move my eyes over. Maybe this is just a bad habit from writing too much computer code (commands repeat over and over; nobody reads them as words after a while) but that's just the way it is; if you ask me to read something, stop, then tell you if the letter "p" was in the last word I would have to pause and think what the last word was.

The problem is with the last two ways of reading; when you read relatively slow its irrelevant how long the line is, but as you start to read very fast (which is particularly the case with content you're familiar with) it becomes a pain in the ass to have your eyes move from left to right pixel miles. In this case there are two alternatives, either read much slower (the obvious involuntery decition; case for the majority) or if you are more time savy reduce the content's width to a size where you read at your speed; for people that are not complexed with "windows-must-be-maximized" the choice is obvious.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KholdStare View Post
Assuming that the 500 px width rule was created for 800 x 600 resolution, I suggest that the limit of the 2 lines of text under the signature and total width of tables should be increased to 640 (after some math). The limits of the image can stay the same. Tables can stay the same if it works like the way the moderator says it does. The example in Cats' first post is ridiculous and illegal. I personally have no problem with all of the examples in Cats' next post, which would be legal if we change the width limit to 640 pixels.
As I said earlier, Why do we need tables in signatures? [wr][/wr] or [wl][/wl] would seem to get the same job done with out any of the problems. I did not start this thread because I have a problem with them not following the rules, but because they are bracking the forum's layout. That signature in the first post is not so "obviously" breaking anything if you are always viewing the forum at around 1100px width or more (the usual size for the visible page area when you take out the space for scrollbars in borwsers).

Quote:
Originally Posted by KholdStare View Post
I really hope my idea comes into consideration.
From the lack of any response I would say they already chose the easy way out (option #3) I mentioned in my first post. Besides, xris the all "omnipresent one" the rest of the administrative staff seem to be offline for some time now. Even if its considered it might take a blue phase of the moon for us to get a answer.

Well, if its any conselation, I found it intereesting reading your points on the topic.
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Old 2009-04-15, 12:57   Link #12
Jinto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cats View Post
...
(also, don't have too much love for extremely large or "colorful" fonts).
...
Was this a flash back to the days when you were still a young kitten here in the forums?

OnTopic: I remember the dilemma, one moderater stated in a similar thread once before... there is no way to make the rules idiot proof in the sense that they cover every scenario - even those that require extreme lag of common sense. If the rules were that complex, few people would read them and those who lag common sense, probably would not understand them. Besides the moderators would have a hard time to make such rules.
So the consensus has been to assume a certain level of common sense. This common sense may have to be enforced outside the scope of the explicit rules sometimes. But there won't be as much overall trouble that way, since common sense is what most users here have (I'ld like to allege this ^^).
What you have uncovered here is unfortunately something that cannot be easily blamed on a lack of common sense, since its a rather technical issue (certain things do not line break). But I would assume that the moderators will take care of those cases in the future (since they are aware of the problem now).

But I should not speak for them. Thats not my compentency.

Oh, and "we" need tables in signatures, because otherwise I could not use my F@H link on the left/right side of an image (which is currently lower than my signature picture. But I might use shorter lyrics when I change my signature... if I find a good reason... or the mood... somewhen...)
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Old 2009-04-15, 14:18   Link #13
felix
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinto View Post
Was this a flash back to the days when you were still a young kitten here in the forums?
How I never got banned in those days is a miracle. My English was so bad too, not that its anything great now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinto View Post
Oh, and "we" need tables in signatures, because otherwise I could not use my F@H link on the left/right side of an image (which is currently lower than my signature picture. But I might use shorter lyrics when I change my signature... if I find a good reason... or the mood... somewhen...)
Is this satisfactory? (no tables; your lyrics wrap under each other)





I can't get it out of me
It's breathing Inside me
It's reaching inside of you
You're feeling infected
You're being infected
It's just like the cold

A kiss on your lips
Now you're taking control

If you want to try and save me
Then take my heart don't hate me
If you feel you can't let go then let go


Folding@Home, Team Animesuki



Any other scenario you need tables with. I practice and recommend using floats over any sort of abosolute positioning for presentation purposes. Tables are only useful when I am (speaking in html) dealing with a information blob, such as for example a list of threads with last post etc. (altough there are a few reasons you might want to emulate a table with Css the benefits I found though practice to be neglectable)

With regard to common sense, would it not make more sense to just say:
Quote:
You can have a maximum of X amount of lines. Each line may contain a maximum of Y characters; this calculated with the default forum font size settings. A line is considered 20px (regardless of font size), you may have as many as long as the total height in combination with any images you may have will not exceed 160px. Font size larger then "size 2" is not allowed.

In the case of special cases where the rules can not be applied as stated above, a signature is deemed legal if its contents can fit under normal forum defined font settings in a 500 by 160 pixel box.

Last edited by felix; 2009-04-15 at 14:28.
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Old 2009-04-15, 14:38   Link #14
SeedFreedom
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The question shouldn't be weather we "need" anything. Signatures don't have any practical importance in any discussion but is a place to allow for some creativity of the users. Unless its offensive or disrupts the function of the forum it doesn't matter weather it is needed, or if there is a better way to do it. If they want to they can.

Cats your proposed signature rule is ideal and will eliminate most discrepancies about any further signature rules by placing an imaginary 160 x 500 box around all signatures, but really its not needed or helpful. The rule is hard to decipher and will simply lead to many people having no clue what they mean. Most signatures go over the rules anyways. Usually they aren't distracting enough to matter and its up to other forum members to report if one is over the line.
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Old 2009-04-15, 14:57   Link #15
Jinto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cats View Post
Is this satisfactory? (no tables; your lyrics wrap under each other)
I am inclined to say that is not quite what I had in mind you know... so its no solution for me.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Cats View Post
Any other scenario you need tables with. I practice and recommend using floats over any sort of abosolute positioning for presentation purposes. Tables are only useful when I am (speaking in html) dealing with a information blob, such as for example a list of threads with last post etc. (altough there are a few reasons you might want to emulate a table with Css the benefits I found though practice to be neglectable)
But there is this browser compatibility issue. I think good ol' tables is what works most similar on different browser (since it is such an essential part of html styling basics).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cats View Post
With regard to common sense, would it not make more sense to just say:
Ah I don't know... I mean I would understand it... but there is too much math involved imo. How did my boss at my intern used to say: "If you design an user interface make it simple... imagine someone with the IQ of toast, he must be able to use it intuitively. Only then it is good enough for our customers... (or something like that)

Thats when I learned the "three clicks on single button design pattern" - each time you click the button, it does something... the progress in the work is shown (and the button is disabled meanwhile)... then the content of the button changes and it is reactivated... the user clicks again... Oh and most important, there is only one button, so the user cannot be confused by possible choices.
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Old 2009-04-15, 16:18   Link #16
felix
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeedFreedom View Post
The rule is hard to decipher and will simply lead to many people having no clue what they mean. Most signatures go over the rules anyways. Usually they aren't distracting enough to matter and its up to other forum members to report if one is over the line.
That was just a example for Jinto (hence why I didn't fill in exact numbers), but if you want to think of it as that then:
Quote:
Signature rules:
  1. You can have both text and images in your signature; in any combination.
  2. Combining the size of all your images must not exceed 50,000 bytes (48.8k)
  3. Text can not be bigger then size 2
  4. A line of text is considered to be 20px tall regardless of font size.
  5. A line of text is considered to end every 64 characters*
  6. Any combination of lines and images must not exceed 160 pixels in height.
  7. Any combination of images must not exceed both 160 pixels in height and also 500 pixels in width.
If you have text on the right or left of any of your images consider your signature design a special case and apply the bellow.

For special cases: place the signature as is in a imaginary 500 x 160 pixel box, if it fits its legal. (rule 2 still applies!)

* copy/paste to any text editor (notepad etc) and look at the statusbar to determine how many characters you have
I think I got it right; you shouldn't need to decifer anything now. Do you see anything that would make the current rules better then the example above? Oh and concerning impeding people, as you can see from KholdStare's examples, the current ones do a lot more harm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinto View Post
I am inclined to say that is not quite what I had in mind you know... so its no solution for me.

Hm, a Gecko bug. Sorry about that, I was using Opera and it looked exactly as your table version to me. Aparently Gecko assignes a arbitrary width on floats with out a specified width; I'll see if there is a workaround this.
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Old 2009-04-15, 16:38   Link #17
felix
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______________________________________

I can't get it out of me
It's breathing Inside me
It's reaching inside of you
You're feeling infected
You're being infected
It's just like the cold


A kiss on your lips
Now you're taking control

If you want to try and save me
Then take my heart don't hate me
If you feel you can't let go then let go

Folding@Home, Team Animesuki

Some test text right under it, to check accidental wrapping.

Code:
[size=1][wr][COLOR="transparent"]______________________________________[/COLOR]
[wr][img]http://www.digital-soul-drift.de/sig_apr28.jpg[/img][/wr]
I can't get it out of me
It's breathing Inside me
It's reaching inside of you
You're feeling infected
You're being infected
It's just like the cold[/wr]

A kiss on your lips
Now you're taking control

If you want to try and save me
Then take my heart don't hate me
If you feel you can't let go then let go

Folding@Home, [B][URL="http://vspx27.stanford.edu/cgi-bin/main.py?qtype=teampage&teamnum=49362"]Team Animesuki[/URL][/B]
[/size]
Well that's close... unfortunetly the so called color "transparency" is only another Gecko bug, Opera for example will show it green.

A solution is to use a image, do you mind extra images in your signature?
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Old 2009-04-15, 17:07   Link #18
Jinto
Asuki-tan Kairin ↓
 
 
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Age: 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cats View Post
That was just a example for Jinto (hence why I didn't fill in exact numbers), but if you want to think of it as that then:I think I got it right; you shouldn't need to decifer anything now. Do you see anything that would make the current rules better then the example above? Oh and concerning impeding people, as you can see from KholdStare's examples, the current ones do a lot more harm.
That is not for me to decide. I understand both the current version and your proposal. But I am not the critical mass upon which such decisions are made.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cats View Post
Well that's close... unfortunetly the so called color "transparency" is only another Gecko bug, Opera for example will show it green.
Hm, but regardless of the color thing in opera there is still something strange... yet it is close to what I need:



Quote:
Originally Posted by Cats View Post
A solution is to use a image, do you mind extra images in your signature?
If you happen to know a way to place links for specific parts of the image (I know this works for HTML, but afaik such code is not alowed as BB-code isn't it?).
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Old 2009-04-15, 17:18   Link #19
felix
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No you read too much into my post, I meant use a image for that spacer line I used to bypass the bug, not a image map.

Something like this:


I can't get it out of me
It's breathing Inside me
It's reaching inside of you
You're feeling infected
You're being infected
It's just like the cold

A kiss on your lips
Now you're taking control

If you want to try and save me
Then take my heart don't hate me
If you feel you can't let go then let go

Folding@Home, Team Animesuki


Every browser should render it consistently.
Code:
[size=1][wr][img]http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/7819/spacerh.gif[/img]
[wr][img]http://www.digital-soul-drift.de/sig_apr28.jpg[/img][/wr]
I can't get it out of me
It's breathing Inside me
It's reaching inside of you
You're feeling infected
You're being infected
It's just like the cold[/wr]
A kiss on your lips
Now you're taking control

If you want to try and save me
Then take my heart don't hate me
If you feel you can't let go then let go

[B]Folding@Home, [URL="http://vspx27.stanford.edu/cgi-bin/main.py?qtype=teampage&teamnum=49362"]Team Animesuki[/URL][/B]

[/size]
So getting back to the topic: What exactly do we need tables in signature for?
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Old 2009-04-15, 18:17   Link #20
Jinto
Asuki-tan Kairin ↓
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Fürth (GER)
Age: 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cats View Post
No you read too much into my post, I meant use a image for that spacer line I used to bypass the bug, not a image map.

Something like this:


I can't get it out of me
It's breathing Inside me
It's reaching inside of you
You're feeling infected
You're being infected
It's just like the cold

A kiss on your lips
Now you're taking control

If you want to try and save me
Then take my heart don't hate me
If you feel you can't let go then let go

Folding@Home, Team Animesuki


Every browser should render it consistently.
Code:
[size=1][wr][img]http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/7819/spacerh.gif[/img]
[wr][img]http://www.digital-soul-drift.de/sig_apr28.jpg[/img][/wr]
I can't get it out of me
It's breathing Inside me
It's reaching inside of you
You're feeling infected
You're being infected
It's just like the cold[/wr]
A kiss on your lips
Now you're taking control

If you want to try and save me
Then take my heart don't hate me
If you feel you can't let go then let go

[B]Folding@Home, [URL="http://vspx27.stanford.edu/cgi-bin/main.py?qtype=teampage&teamnum=49362"]Team Animesuki[/URL][/B]

[/size]
So getting back to the topic: What exactly do we need tables in signature for?
You don't get tired of that do you? ^^
Well this seems to make things worse actually. Now the lines are exactly 1 line shifted. "I can't get it out of me" should be on the same height as "A kiss on your lips".
Yeah right tables... what do "we" need them for again
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