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Old 2013-07-14, 06:37   Link #3921
demino_hellsin
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Basically he can move according to how his mind moves him regardless of experience or physical limits. Extremes of either being the exceptions. His idealized actions in his mind are performed by what the body is capable of beyond the improbable but not impossible.

Did I get that right?

The whole motivation and ideal is just too convoluted.
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Old 2013-07-14, 09:46   Link #3922
MeisterBabylon
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Actually, the weakness IS the mana limit. That is the "in between of extremes" bit of Threefold Truth.

Touma's little toy works on extremes, which in his case is extreme NOPE. Jacob basically has the ability to "push" things in that sliding scale from left to right or back again.

I propose that the drawback be: it requires mana to push things to the extreme. Because of the Law of Equivalent Exchange. I think. Anyway, the more mana applied, the more it shifts, or the more of something shifts. So he can easily erase a small fireball from existence, with some effort erase a larger fireball or summon his own fireball, but he will need a disproportionate amount of mana equivalent to E=mc2 to make something go into an extreme state of existence/void, or an inhumane amount to negate a frontal assault from an angel.

And yes, he has to think about it; as in, estimate the size of the incoming Truth, then apply the right amount. Maybe give him a bad feedback effect when he over or underestimates, causing parts of himself or the surroundings of the target to disappear or the target engulfing his hand when overestimating. So, to be on the safe side he usually underestimates, for example.

And also, no Auto-reflect bull.

Last edited by MeisterBabylon; 2013-07-14 at 09:57.
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Old 2013-07-14, 09:57   Link #3923
demino_hellsin
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but that is a moot weakness. Mostly because there is no sense of urgency or scale to the limit. You say it requires a lot of mana to do this but we have no idea how many attacks is the limit. If his attacks were limited to around 50 a day that would still be OP since he only needs 1 shot to decide a fight. even 20 is overkill unless he is fighting a one man war.

The interesting concept of this truth is a mechanism that will not require you that much power to change it from something into nothing. What you are rewriting is the property of "belonging". Does this belong here? Or there? When you rewrite that, the effect of disappearance automatically takes effect.

Again, different mechanism
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Old 2013-07-14, 09:58   Link #3924
MeisterBabylon
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But, truth can come in 1 line, 1 page, or 1 book form. Rewriting a book takes more effort than rewriting a page.
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Old 2013-07-14, 10:09   Link #3925
demino_hellsin
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but take into account that the universe has an automatic mechanism to right itself. IRL proof being energy. Balancing of electron charges, temperature equilibrium, chemical reactions to achieve pressure equilibrium.

So instead of rewriting one portion of the book to a truth. You turn it to a lie. The book will not recognize it and remove it automatically
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Old 2013-07-14, 10:54   Link #3926
agetreme
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Originally Posted by demino_hellsin View Post
but take into account that the universe has an automatic mechanism to right itself. IRL proof being energy. Balancing of electron charges, temperature equilibrium, chemical reactions to achieve pressure equilibrium.

So instead of rewriting one portion of the book to a truth. You turn it to a lie. The book will not recognize it and remove it automatically
The whole book thing give me an idea.... how about making that Imagine-Breaker like power.... into a book?

To be exact, when certain event occur, words will appear on the grimoire, so to nullify an attack, one just have to erase the words with an eraser.

The problem is: How fast and clean can you erase those words? If the erase is not clean enough, it only reduce the power of the attack.

There is a faster way to erase those words, namely tearing pages from the book but the problem is: by tearing the page, not only does you negate the power, you negate the entire event (an reset with a 50-50 chances of it occurring again) and the book is linked to the Magician's life, the number of pages in the book actually correspond to how long the magician will live.

This idea has has the bonus content of [Angst] of knowing exactly how long you will live before you will die without knowing how you will die and with the knowledge that your death is absolute. It has already being predetermined the moment you make a contract with the book....the problem is, the book would not reveal how you will die.
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Old 2013-07-14, 13:16   Link #3927
Exthiel
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@dniv it still sounds like a plot armor, even more with the whole robot thing. Losing is a non-issues since he can replace the robot. Basically it now feels like your standard shounen protagonist powers (the whole get stronger while you get weaker thing just sells it). What makes the whole thing complicated is the whole fighting at 100% thing.

Last edited by Exthiel; 2013-07-14 at 13:30.
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Old 2013-07-14, 14:27   Link #3928
dniv
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@Demino yes. He can do the improbable, but not the impossible. This makes sure that he can do extremely well, but will not fight above his level. If he is a weakling or is injured, he will fight like a sissy. He can only control the robot as if he could control his limbs and he gets injured if the robot gets injured.

@Exthiel What I mean by this is not that he gets stronger while getting weaker. I mean that if he is more motivated he will temporarily fight better. But if he's injured, he won't fight better than before he was injured. He can just continue fighting longer than most people. Also, the robot can not be replaced. It is 1 of a kind (it's not exactly Index setting... but it is Index inspired).

Okay: I made the willpower thing unclear. I meant that he has great willpower, not that it actually makes him stronger. Ignore the willpower thing: it doesn't make him stronger. (When he gets weaker, he can't fight any better at all). Does this sound like semi-justified plot armour now)? It isn't really plot-armor because the character has limits to his powers. He can never go beyond them. He can't fight any better during a fight if he is more passionate, he can only get better if his opponent gets weaker and he stays the same in strength... and he can use any tool at 100%. Just think of his power as the ability to use any tool at 100%. To use it as well as he could if he was on his best day using it. When you play a sport you have off-days and good days. He always has good days. He can't go beyond his limits though.) I hope this is less-plot armorish...

@Agetreme that sounds pretty cool. Reminds me a little of Death Note though even though it is different

Last edited by dniv; 2013-07-14 at 14:42.
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Old 2013-07-14, 14:46   Link #3929
VTP-DDM
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Hey guys, I'm in the process of planning out a character and was wondering if I could get some feedback on the powers I want to give him.

His ability is to use telekinesis to increase or decrease the speed of molecules, which allows him to alter the state of matter. So for example, he can increase the speed of molecules in a solid and change it into a liquid, or he can decrease the speed of molecules in a liquid and turn it into a solid. He can also apply the power to alter the speed of moving and stationary objects.

The limits I had in mind are that he can't alter things that have too high a melting point or too low a freezing point (so he can't melt most metals, for example); he can only make objects move up to a certain speed for a limited period of time and cannot alter the speed of objects that are moving too quickly; he can only make one change of speed at a time (so for example, he wouldn't be able to freeze one body of water and boil another at the same time).

So I'm wondering if this power is too improbable/fundamentally incorrect to be believable.
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Old 2013-07-14, 14:49   Link #3930
dniv
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VTP-DDM View Post
Hey guys, I'm in the process of planning out a character and was wondering if I could get some feedback on the powers I want to give him.

His ability is to use telekinesis to increase or decrease the speed of molecules, which allows him to alter the state of matter. So for example, he can increase the speed of molecules in a solid and change it into a liquid, or he can decrease the speed of molecules in a liquid and turn it into a solid. He can also apply the power to alter the speed of moving and stationary objects.

The limits I had in mind are that he can't alter things that have too high a melting point or too low a freezing point (so he can't melt most metals, for example); he can only make objects move up to a certain speed for a limited period of time and cannot alter the speed of objects that are moving too quickly; he can only make one change of speed at a time (so for example, he wouldn't be able to freeze one body of water and boil another at the same time).

So I'm wondering if this power is too improbable/fundamentally incorrect to be believable.
It sounds pretty cool. But: is this the ability to control temperature? Isn't that what it is, really? (or at least Temperature's effects on particular objects).
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Old 2013-07-14, 15:28   Link #3931
VTP-DDM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dniv View Post
It sounds pretty cool. But: is this the ability to control temperature? Isn't that what it is, really? (or at least Temperature's effects on particular objects).
See, this is where I'm a little unsure about my science. Right now, it's:

Power affects molecule speed --> alters temperature --> alters state of object.

But I'm not sure if that's actually correct science or whether I've got things the wrong way around.

I originally contemplated the ability being the power to control temperature, but I felt that sort of power had a limited number of applications, as opposed to being able to control molecule speed which, I think, opens up a few more possibilities. For example, altering the speed of molecules could enhance or slow down someone's movement, but altering the temperature wouldn't achieve the same effect.
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Old 2013-07-14, 16:10   Link #3932
SmokinFerret88
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Actually, the weakness IS the mana limit. That is the "in between of extremes" bit of Threefold Truth.

Touma's little toy works on extremes, which in his case is extreme NOPE. Jacob basically has the ability to "push" things in that sliding scale from left to right or back again.

I propose that the drawback be: it requires mana to push things to the extreme. Because of the Law of Equivalent Exchange. I think. Anyway, the more mana applied, the more it shifts, or the more of something shifts. So he can easily erase a small fireball from existence, with some effort erase a larger fireball or summon his own fireball, but he will need a disproportionate amount of mana equivalent to E=mc2 to make something go into an extreme state of existence/void, or an inhumane amount to negate a frontal assault from an angel.

And yes, he has to think about it; as in, estimate the size of the incoming Truth, then apply the right amount. Maybe give him a bad feedback effect when he over or underestimates, causing parts of himself or the surroundings of the target to disappear or the target engulfing his hand when overestimating. So, to be on the safe side he usually underestimates, for example.

And also, no Auto-reflect bull.
You know, this actually proved as a great way to interpret Threefold Truth really. If mana is the problem, then why don't I make it to where, under normal conditions, he can only alter the Scales of Extremes to, say, 3 times in a day before his mana is almost dried up. If he were to drastically alter the scales of something, using the example of an angel's attack, then he practically burns up nearly all of his mana in one go.

Now lets use an example of, say, Stiyl's Innocentius; which is a Pope-Level spell. Truth was used on that, the mana cost would be equivalent to using Threefold Truth two times. Again, this is still under the 'normal' factors. When I say normal, what I mean to say is 'with his own mana-supply'. If Jacob was to possess a spiritual item that either provided him with mana or minimized the amount of mana exerted to perform his spell; then we can assume that the number of times Jacob could perform it would go up by (heh) threefold.

Also, I may as well retort my statement about him being allowed to use standard magic. With the amount of power Threefold Truth has, allowing him to use regular magic is indeed an issue. As such, I think it would be fair if Jacob was similar to the members of God's Right Seat in that he can't use standard magic.

So, with that being said, Jacob's ability is very mana costly, limited to three times in a day (with his own mana supply) and he suffers the same problems as the member's of God's Right Seat; in addition to it not being automatic and it activates at his will.

The number of uses is largely up to debate if it should be just a bit higher or lower under normal conditions, but I think that is a sufficient number.
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Old 2013-07-14, 16:52   Link #3933
demino_hellsin
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@dniv: so its like gandalfr now? You statement implies he can use any tool at 100% efficiency with full knowledge despite having held it only once in his life. And that is the time he is using it then. This only differs from my description by way that my take on your idea implies he does not know how to use it but can perfectly do the assumed acts with it.

Just like with a sword he would be able to move according to his idealized swings but not know any actual kata as opposed to your implication that he immediately knows relevant kata that mixes best with the blade's design and performs them to a degree limited only by the extremes of his physical weakness.

@ferret: then that will be sufficient. Though in hindsight he feels more like the anti-fiamma than the anti-touma.
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Old 2013-07-14, 17:03   Link #3934
SmokinFerret88
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Though in hindsight he feels more like the anti-fiamma than the anti-touma.
Very true, I have thought about that. But, going by what Accelerator said in volume 22 of the LN. "Even if someone else had the same arm, no one could use it as well as Touma does." That statement stays true here and is something I'm going to demonstrate if Jacob does come to life and confronts Touma in combat. While the abilities are similar in a sense, but Touma is better than Jacob not only because Imagine Breaker beats Threefold Truth, but because Touma is better skilled at using IB than Jacob is with TT.

That is the fundimental point of this character really. It's to show that, even if the imitation seems more powerful and useful than the original, the latter is still the stronger not because of what it can do, but because of the person who wields it. With all that being said, if Jacob was to go against Fiamma, then he would die due to the same reason he would have lost if/when he faced Touma.
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Old 2013-07-14, 17:09   Link #3935
demino_hellsin
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What makes the comparison between fiamma and this character interesting is the limit. Fiamma has limited uses because holy right has no stable physical form unless it assumes the flesh of touma's right arm as well beng of an origin of divinity that required index 103,000 grimoires of knowledge to properly use to high efficiency. Your character is most likely trying to take something from touma to perfect this alternative IB as well.

You might also need a ritual or talisman/spiritual tool
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Old 2013-07-14, 17:16   Link #3936
SmokinFerret88
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I think I may have something for that honestly, but I need to do some research on it to make sure that it's legit.

The idea is the gold wheel; highest of the three layered wheels that support the earth above the primordial void. The spiritual tool itself may be depicted as three gold rings; one on his middle finger, one on his wrist, and one on his bicep. That's the idea at least; either that or I'll just give him a staff or something with some intricate design that I can't describe at the present moment.
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Old 2013-07-14, 17:27   Link #3937
dniv
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Originally Posted by demino_hellsin View Post
@dniv: so its like gandalfr now? You statement implies he can use any tool at 100% efficiency with full knowledge despite having held it only once in his life. And that is the time he is using it then. This only differs from my description by way that my take on your idea implies he does not know how to use it but can perfectly do the assumed acts with it.

Just like with a sword he would be able to move according to his idealized swings but not know any actual kata as opposed to your implication that he immediately knows relevant kata that mixes best with the blade's design and performs them to a degree limited only by the extremes of his physical weakness.

@ferret: then that will be sufficient. Though in hindsight he feels more like the anti-fiamma than the anti-touma.
Sorry once again. No. It isn't like Gandalfr. He can use a tool at the best of his capabilities consistently. But not better than he already knows how to use it. It means that if he trains he will improve, never unimprove, basically. He can do anything consistently well or sucky depending on his limits... I wanted to make it a little like Gandalfr though... but now that you point it out... that isn't exactly original (I mean that he has a natural intuition for using any weapon. He learns fast. He isn't perfect or amazing with any weapon immediately though in contrast to Gandalfr. It just means his potential is high. Not his current capabilities if that makes sense). If he trains and works hard he can improve. It's like having a large capacity for Chakra in Naruto and the ability to use only a little now versus a small capacity for chakra but good control or the capacity for lots of chakra and the ability to use a lot now (too much maybe). I'm sure you get what I am referencing by this and therefore who in work ethic I compare this character to. Potential versus current control. This means as the series goes along he gets better with things depending on how much he trains. He will never get worse as long as he isn't injured or whatever... if that makes sense.

His skill with anything he does is always at this level. But he has to follow his ideals so if he wants to win but his ideals say otherwise, he will lose even while using tools. He will be helpless.

If his morals say otherwise, he loses his ability to make free choices. The freedom to make choices is an important theme in what I am trying to write. He doesn't really have that luxury. He can only do something at his best. He can choose to continue fighting, but as long as he does he fights in one way (the way he does it best whatever it is in the moment) he can't be creative. His power decides it for him if you understand what that means.

As a result, he wants to protect the ability of others to be able to make free choices out of compassion and empathy towards others because he doesn't have this ability. He basically takes on this responsibility for himself so that others can make free choices and acts as a determinator at times in order to make it happen (but he can't fight above his level and so will lose at times. The idea is that he tries, not that he wins). Also, he can change his strategy a lot depending on the situation. He does what is best depending on the environment and the enemy. It is just that he can't choose not to do his best.

So if his ideals want him to stop someone. He can't choose not to fight them. He has to fight them unless he is somehow able to change his ideals. This makes him pretty pitiable as a character hopefully.

Any opinions?

Last edited by dniv; 2013-07-14 at 23:28. Reason: hoping my post wasn't boring or too horrible to comment on and a thanks for earlier feedback
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Old 2013-07-15, 05:28   Link #3938
demino_hellsin
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The ability you describe actually fits the idea of a human machine which was my first interpretation. His strength is solely dependent on his mental state. What his mind visualizes his body does to 100% fidelity. Possible weaknesses are surprise where his mind is caught off guard unless his muscle memory kicks in which is non-existent since his power makes fighting an active motor skill than reflexive/passive. Basically the body does not falter unless the mind does. Or that your software is overclocking your hardware.

The greatest problem then is your hardware burning out.
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Old 2013-07-15, 06:57   Link #3939
dniv
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Originally Posted by demino_hellsin View Post
The ability you describe actually fits the idea of a human machine which was my first interpretation. His strength is solely dependent on his mental state. What his mind visualizes his body does to 100% fidelity. Possible weaknesses are surprise where his mind is caught off guard unless his muscle memory kicks in which is non-existent since his power makes fighting an active motor skill than reflexive/passive. Basically the body does not falter unless the mind does. Or that your software is overclocking your hardware.

The greatest problem then is your hardware burning out.
Yes. Exactly. Yeah, sorry your first interpretation was correct

Also, he's a smart cookie... so yeah... as long as he has the guts to continue thinking he can still fight. (Much harder than the guts to continue fighting by instinct )

Thanks for the feedback everyone. I'll think about all suggestions.
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Old 2013-07-16, 04:00   Link #3940
Doc Astaroth
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Some spells I tought up on the basis of the Beowulf saga and how the hero Beowulf defeated his three supernatural enemies:

Grip of Beowulf - Grendel's deadly fear

Beowulf ended the life of the Monster Grendel by grapping him at his arm and scaring the monster with his enormous strength and righteous will. Grendel was so desperate to escape that he ripped out his own arm to get free and died by this wound.

The spell is casted by grapping the enemy with a glove made from the arm of a bear. Every turn he can put so much pressure on the target that bones will be shattered after 30 seconds. Once the enemy is grapped he can not escape without making a sacrifice, i.e. giving the spellcaster some useful and top secret information or inflicting a deadly wound on theirself.

Also, the spell induces fear of the spell caster in the target. The target must have sufficient willpower and courage, if they want to attack the spellcaster while they are hold.


Hrunting's Betray - Swinging the Giant Sword

In his fight against Grendel's mother Beowulf was using the Sword Hrunting giving him by Unferth. However, while the sword was said to have magical powers, it failed against Grendel's mother. Beowulf had to use one of the Giant swords laying around in the lair.

There are several interpretation why the magic sword failed: J.L. Rosier say it was because Unferth was a traitor and gave Beowulf a weapon he knew that would fail because Grendel's mother couldn't be defeated with a manmade weapon. Kent Gould on the other side thinks, it was because Unferth was a heathen. In the end it was only a power provided by the Christian God, that allows to defeat a monster what descended from Kain.

Going by these interpretations, the spellcaster can discard a weapon given them by a person they don't trust to gain enough proficiency at a weapon laying around to defeat all their enemies in the area. This weapon must lay in the area where he fight against his opponents. The size of the area varies by the kind of enemy.

For example, the spellcaster buys and is given a weapon by a person they don't trust (any weapon dealer he don't personally know or don't like counts). In a fight against Anti-Skill in a building in Academy City they abandon their weapon and can take a weapon dropped by a defeated Anti-Skill to get enough proficiency with this weapon to defeat (theoretically) all enemies in the building. If they choose an assault rifle for example, they will have a improbable good aim, will always know when to reload and how to position themselves favorably, etc. Essentially, they will have all necessary feats to consider themselves as absolute masters with said weapon.

The spell ends, after all enemies are defeated or the spellcaster leaves the designed area.


Beowulf's death - Killing the Dragon

In his last fight Beowulf managed to defeat the Dragon who wounded him mortally with a last final blow after the dragon was wounded by Beowulf's companion Wiglaf.

This is basically a deadly counterspell in case the spellcaster is going to be defeated. It creates a single opportunity for a last counter attack to against the enemy who defeated the spellcaster. How this opportunity looks like depends on the situation. Somehow the enemy will be distracted and the spellcaster will get a weapon in his hand that allows him to strike the fatal blow.

A weaker version of this spell can be used if the enemy hasn't killed the spellcaster, but prevent him successfully to achieve his goal. In this case the enemy also won't be killed but will be restrained for as long as the spellcaster is incapable of action. For example, if the spellcaster is trapped by a spell of their enemy they can drag the enemy with them in this trap.

Last edited by Doc Astaroth; 2013-07-16 at 04:43.
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