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Old 2013-03-08, 12:23   Link #221
Utsuro no Hako
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeoXiao View Post
And get China really involved (as you said), and the Soviet Union too? The resulting nuclear war probably would have killed everyone in North Korea, like half of China, and millions in Russia, Europe, and America. Who knows when the war would have ended. It's a good thing that Truman fired MacArthur before he did something stupid.
I don't think either side had enough nukes in 1950 to make that kind of war possible (remember, the Soviets only tested their first bomb the previous year). The US didn't go crazy with building bombs until a few years later, and the Soviets didn't follow suit until Kennedy started talking about the "missile gap".

The problem with using nukes in Korea is it would've changed them from a weapon only used in special circumstances, to just another tool of the trade to be whipped out whenever the US or Soviet Union got themselves in a tight spot.
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Old 2013-03-08, 14:17   Link #222
LeoXiao
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Utsuro no Hako View Post
I don't think either side had enough nukes in 1950 to make that kind of war possible (remember, the Soviets only tested their first bomb the previous year). The US didn't go crazy with building bombs until a few years later, and the Soviets didn't follow suit until Kennedy started talking about the "missile gap".
This is true.
Quote:
The problem with using nukes in Korea is it would've changed them from a weapon only used in special circumstances, to just another tool of the trade to be whipped out whenever the US or Soviet Union got themselves in a tight spot.
Also it sets the Soviet Union on edge. They know they are outnumbered when it comes to A-bomb production, so having Korea go nuclear would let the cat out of the bag in their eyes. We might not see immediate escalation, but the 1950s would have been a very dangerous time to live in. The USSR might decide to make all of Eurasia theirs before the US has too much of a nuclear superiority, or (more likely), as you mentioned, they would feel well within their rights to use them in future conflicts.
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Old 2013-03-08, 14:24   Link #223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeoXiao View Post
Now the issue is that American being Americans, we would probably use many as it takes to get the job done, plus bomb China a few dozens of times, which is very bad news for the local population.
Aren't China and the US a little too tied together, economy-wise? I kinda doubt Americans would risk jeopardizing their economy any further, considering what I've been reading about regarding the US economy.

Anyway,

Quote:
North Korea ends peace pacts with South

North Korea says it is scrapping all non-aggression pacts with South Korea, closing its hotline with Seoul and shutting their shared border point.

(...)

Earlier, Pyongyang said it had a right to carry out a pre-emptive nuclear strike and was pulling out of the armistice that ended the Korean War.
Although, based on the article, I'm not really sure what all this entails.
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Old 2013-03-08, 14:31   Link #224
ArchmageXin
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Originally Posted by Shyni View Post
Aren't China and the US a little too tied together, economy-wise? I kinda doubt Americans would risk jeopardizing their economy any further, considering what I've been reading about regarding the US economy.

Anyway,



Although, based on the article, I'm not really sure what all this entails.

Um, stuff like pulling hotline and canceling armistice has happened around 5-7 times already. People now days yawn about these kind of things.

North Korea's defense tech is so low, Americans sometime move their warships next to the chinese defense network in order to get the Chinese to "TIP-OFF" NK Americans are nearby. How sad is that?
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Old 2013-03-08, 15:33   Link #225
Sumeragi
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Originally Posted by ArchmageXin View Post
North Korea's defense tech is so low, Americans sometime move their warships next to the chinese defense network in order to get the Chinese to "TIP-OFF" NK Americans are nearby. How sad is that?
I'm not going go bother with how stupid this statement is.
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Old 2013-03-08, 15:43   Link #226
ArchmageXin
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Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
I'm not going go bother with how stupid this statement is.
http://e-ring.foreignpolicy.com/post...nuclear_threat

Quote:
Whatever the U.S. military response may be, it is always intentional. North Korea cannot see far asea naval movements, the official said, but China can. One option in the playbook is to move U.S. military assets in a way that the Chinese can see, knowing they will relay U.S. movements to the North Koreans.
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Old 2013-03-08, 15:51   Link #227
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That's exactly what I mean. Foreign Policy is known for making some of the stupidest articles possible, and that's no exception.
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Old 2013-03-08, 19:17   Link #228
LeoXiao
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shyni View Post
Aren't China and the US a little too tied together, economy-wise? I kinda doubt Americans would risk jeopardizing their economy any further, considering what I've been reading about regarding the US economy.
.
I was talking about 1950, not the present day. China was an ally of the Soviet Union and thus our enemy.
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Old 2013-03-08, 19:49   Link #229
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeoXiao View Post
I was talking about 1950, not the present day. China was an ally of the Soviet Union and thus our enemy.
Speaking of Soviets, weren't they dissolved already today? Is there a chance that she will ally with China and North Korea if this two starts it?

North Korea threatens nuclear strike on US



Versus
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Old 2013-03-08, 20:19   Link #230
Kyuu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GenjiChan View Post
Speaking of Soviets, weren't they dissolved already today? Is there a chance that she will ally with China and North Korea if this two starts it?

North Korea threatens nuclear strike on US



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As if they have anything that can reach the US -- undetected.
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Old 2013-03-08, 21:32   Link #231
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lol cant take this shit seriously anymore after cuban missiles
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Old 2013-03-08, 21:42   Link #232
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What is the DEFCON level in US right now?
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Old 2013-03-08, 22:24   Link #233
KiraYamatoFan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
What is the DEFCON level in US right now?
People say DEFCON 3 right now. The last time we reached DEFCON 2 was during the Cuba Missile Crisis and God forbid we ever get there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia
DEFCON 3

Exercise term: ROUND HOUSE
Description: Increase in force readiness above that required for normal readiness.
Readiness: Air Force ready to mobilize in 15 minutes
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Last edited by KiraYamatoFan; 2013-03-08 at 22:35.
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Old 2013-03-10, 21:12   Link #234
AnimeFan188
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As North Korea Blusters, South Breaks Taboo With Nuclear Talk:

"two recent opinion polls show that two-thirds of South
Koreans support the idea posed by a small but growing
number of politicians and columnists — a reflection,
analysts say, of hardening attitudes since the Feb. 12
underground nuclear test, the North’s third such test
since 2006.

“The third nuclear test was for South Korea what the
Cuban missile crisis was for the U.S.,” said Han
Yong-sup, a professor of security policy at the Korea
National Defense University in Seoul. “It has made the
North Korean threat seem very close and very real.”"

"“Having a nuclear North Korea is like facing a person
holding a gun with just your bare hands,” said Mr. Kwon,
the engineer. South Koreans should have “our own
nuclear capabilities, in case the U.S. pulls out like it
did in Vietnam.”"

See:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/11/wo...pagewanted=all
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Old 2013-03-10, 21:23   Link #235
Solace
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Utsuro no Hako View Post
I don't think either side had enough nukes in 1950 to make that kind of war possible (remember, the Soviets only tested their first bomb the previous year). The US didn't go crazy with building bombs until a few years later, and the Soviets didn't follow suit until Kennedy started talking about the "missile gap".

The problem with using nukes in Korea is it would've changed them from a weapon only used in special circumstances, to just another tool of the trade to be whipped out whenever the US or Soviet Union got themselves in a tight spot.
Correct. Here's a timeline of nuclear weapon usage since 1945:

YouTube
Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?
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Old 2013-03-10, 22:07   Link #236
ChainLegacy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solace View Post
Correct. Here's a timeline of nuclear weapon usage since 1945:

YouTube
Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?
Well, I truly don't want North Korea to be armed with nuclear weapons, but really, watching that video, I'm not feeling so good about the situation regardless... What a productive use of resources... (Interesting how India only detonated one until suddenly Pakistan got their hands on one and then they decide to finally do more testing... ugh).
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Old 2013-03-10, 22:14   Link #237
ganbaru
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North Korea cuts off hotline with South Korea
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...92A01820130311
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Old 2013-03-10, 22:23   Link #238
Solace
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChainLegacy View Post
Well, I truly don't want North Korea to be armed with nuclear weapons, but really, watching that video, I'm not feeling so good about the situation regardless... What a productive use of resources... (Interesting how India only detonated one until suddenly Pakistan got their hands on one and then they decide to finally do more testing... ugh).
Well, there's two things to take from that video. One is that in terms of nuclear and overall military might, the US is off the charts compared to any other nation. Combined with a civilian population that has more guns in circulation than nearly any other nation, and the message is simple: provoking the US into an armed conflict is the epitome of stupid.

But the reason for this might is also the reason most other nations don't have it: economics. The economic might of the US is second to none (yes, even in this shitty world economy). It couldn't afford to have that arms race if it weren't for the boom in the post WW2 era. And the only reason the Soviets could come anywhere close to it was because they starved the population to feed their military power.

One led to collapse much sooner, clearly, and history shows that empires that spend so much of their economy on military power will lose both eventually. North Korea is only worrisome in the sense that they could get desperate and actually use those weapons. It's a situation that is (for now) much different from any other nation with nukes, or chasing them (like Iran).

Sanctions won't do much good, and they never really have. All they do is harm the general population while the leaders still live (relatively) well. The only things at this point that will end the current existence of NK is an internal collapse, or their provocation disrupting the relationship between China and the US. Once China has had enough, they'll lose any protection they had in the region.

Mainland US has nothing to fear, but economically (and in terms of actual destruction/loss of lives) a NK nuke could be devastating if it hit any of the nations around it. So in the end, we wait to see what happens first: a nation collapses under its own problems, and/or some idiot pushes a big red button.

That's my armchair analysis, anyway.
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Old 2013-03-10, 22:34   Link #239
ChainLegacy
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The stability of North Korea is indeed what makes their nuclear situation seem so frightening. Thing is, and I'm not saying it's going to happen tomorrow or maybe even in our lifetimes, but who knows if the general level of world stability will remain in place forever. Dark ages and catastrophic collapses have happened several times in human history. When the USSR fell, there were other nations to 'stand guard' and make sure the situation did not turn towards rogue operators in charge of their nuclear arms. What would happen if the global system itself became destabilized? Mass devastation would be inevitable, but throwing into play the gargantuan stockpile of nuclear weaponry makes the idea all the more frightening. It could be a bronze age collapse all over again, but perhaps with more permanent destruction of civilization involved...

So when I hear about North Korea obtaining nuclear weaponry, I agree with everyone out there that wants to prevent this scenario, but it also serves to me as a poignant reminder that we should aggressively disarm even those more 'trustworthy' and stable nations as well... I'm happy steps have been made in this direction, but they haven't been nearly enough.
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Old 2013-03-10, 23:27   Link #240
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Each Dark Age has had other nations not particularly effected by the collapse of an empire...just they were too far away to really do anything (or particularly care) what happened in that empire. Civilizations in China, India, and the Americas went on when Rome fell and Europe fell into the Dark Ages. I'm not even certain they even noticed in China.
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