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Old 2009-12-08, 03:00   Link #381
ReddyRedWolf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsunade666 View Post

So deep blood is like an esper ability? then the vampires are from magic side.
Perhaps Aisa did have to transfer schools due to magic barrier left in the cross Index gave her. With it she is effectively Level 0. You are labeled with a Level if you are born with an esper ability or went through the program

As for Vampires Aleister said nobody has confirmed their existence but Deep Blood's function is a natural predator to them.

Vampires may be just people like espers and magicians given the degree of remorse Aisa has for her power and past.

Aleister said if Deep Blood exists it implies the existence of Vampires then if Imagine Breaker exists then what does it imply to exist?
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Old 2009-12-08, 23:15   Link #382
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Imagine Breaker also known fantasy killer is the proven truth that supernatural existence did exist.
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Old 2011-01-08, 01:01   Link #383
Voxxen
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Fact or Fiction?

I keep seeing the response's stating Touma stopped Mikoto's Railgun, but honestly I believe i've watched every episode. (not too much of the Light Novel)

As hard as I think I can't recall him ever stopping the railgun.

He didn't stop the railgun in "Railgun Ep. 1" It flew past him and onwards to skid across the concrete.

Can someone enlighten me?
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Old 2011-01-08, 01:28   Link #384
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Voxxen View Post
I keep seeing the response's stating Touma stopped Mikoto's Railgun, but honestly I believe i've watched every episode. (not too much of the Light Novel)

As hard as I think I can't recall him ever stopping the railgun.

He didn't stop the railgun in "Railgun Ep. 1" It flew past him and onwards to skid across the concrete.

Can someone enlighten me?
Were you talking about "Railgun Ep. 2"? Episode 1 merely introduced the 4 girls of Toaru Majutsu no Railgun, but on episode 2 he used Imagine Breaker to stop Mikoto's powers from reaching him and they had a side-effect of affecting the concrete around him (I don't know if she used Railgun, or just used a massive amount of electricity) but he apparently did block what I assume is her railgun then.
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Old 2011-01-08, 01:35   Link #385
Saten_
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Voxxen View Post
I keep seeing the response's stating Touma stopped Mikoto's Railgun, but honestly I believe i've watched every episode. (not too much of the Light Novel)

As hard as I think I can't recall him ever stopping the railgun.

He didn't stop the railgun in "Railgun Ep. 1" It flew past him and onwards to skid across the concrete.

Can someone enlighten me?
You mean Index episode 01 right? indeed he didn't stopped the railgun, as it was not aimed directly at him. But he could. If she ever fire it at him he'll raise his right hand and ~~~~~~
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Old 2011-01-08, 01:39   Link #386
Chaos2Frozen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Voxxen View Post
I keep seeing the response's stating Touma stopped Mikoto's Railgun, but honestly I believe i've watched every episode. (not too much of the Light Novel)

As hard as I think I can't recall him ever stopping the railgun.

He didn't stop the railgun in "Railgun Ep. 1" It flew past him and onwards to skid across the concrete.

Can someone enlighten me?
It was once in the Railgun manga, the scene was a retcon of the one where she fired the railgun passed him in Index.
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Old 2011-01-08, 04:17   Link #387
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Voxxen View Post
As hard as I think I can't recall him ever stopping the railgun.

He didn't stop the railgun in "Railgun Ep. 1" It flew past him and onwards to skid across the concrete.

Can someone enlighten me?
It happen in the prologue of vol 1 of light novel.
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Old 2011-01-08, 08:09   Link #388
Salt
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I have given up on the physics in this show.

IB is inconsistently portrayed.

Assuming he can only cancel the initial supernatural effect, then he should not be able to stop the railgun. Even if he cancels the conjured supernatural electricity accelerating it, he would still have a mental coin flying at bullet speed into his hand.

Of course this goes out the window in the fight with the rock golem where he won by counter-punching it. Even if IB breaks the golem apart, that is still about one ton of rock that made up his hand flying into him, which would crush him.

If he can cancel subsequent effects caused by the initial supernatural effect. Just how far "down the line" does it go?
If a teleporter drops a shipping container on him where the teleport has already fully completed, does he touching it teleport it back to the original spot?
The container's new position and downward movement is a consequence of the supernatural ability of teleportation.
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Old 2011-01-08, 08:22   Link #389
tsunade666
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salt View Post
Assuming he can only cancel the initial supernatural effect, then he should not be able to stop the railgun. Even if he cancels the conjured supernatural electricity accelerating it, he would still have a mental coin flying at bullet speed into his hand.
It will just fall down to the ground thanks to the gravity. The force given to it is created by esper powers. And that is all canceled out.
Quote:
Of course this goes out the window in the fight with the rock golem where he won by counter-punching it. Even if IB breaks the golem apart, that is still about one ton of rock that made up his hand flying into him, which would crush him.
Just like I answer on the railgun. All will just fall if the connection is removed. And if you read the latest chapter of index manga. Touma in the situation in the underground trail vs the golem. He could cancel it but he didn't because if he cancel it. It would just fall and squash him up. The time when he cancels it is when his by the side of the golem which happens when he protects kazakiri and when he punch up Sherry which make his position their behind the golem. And the third time is canceling it in frontal assault.

In the battle with Accelerator. it's useless to cancel it because his esper powers aren't working on it. He just changes directions but that only applies on their initial battle. Their next battle is different.

Quote:
If he can cancel subsequent effects caused by the initial supernatural effect. Just how far "down the line" does it go?
If a teleporter drops a shipping container on him where the teleport has already fully completed, does he touching it teleport it back to the original spot?
The container's new position and downward movement is a consequence of the supernatural ability of teleportation.
Down to the core. Like heat after effects and burn after effects. As long as it's created by esper power and is powered by magic which is in the limits of not being a divine level. It can be canceled out.

Now for teleporter. Teleporting directly into him or near him or him is useless. Just like what Kuroko attempted on teleporting him to hide him from the dorm manager. IF you want to beat him in by a teleporter. And teleport a big one which is from above and drop it on him or teleport it on his sides which is not in his range of effects.

Now the question is how big is the area of effects of imagine breaker. Even I didn't understand it much. He can disrupt and cancel out area of effects or ritual type just being their in the affected zone thought their are exceptions if their is a core which continuesly supplying it with magic or aim which make it regenerate again and again.
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Old 2011-01-08, 08:27   Link #390
Chaos2Frozen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salt View Post
I have given up on the physics in this show.

IB is inconsistently portrayed.

Assuming he can only cancel the initial supernatural effect, then he should not be able to stop the railgun. Even if he cancels the conjured supernatural electricity accelerating it, he would still have a mental coin flying at bullet speed into his hand.

Of course this goes out the window in the fight with the rock golem where he won by counter-punching it. Even if IB breaks the golem apart, that is still about one ton of rock that made up his hand flying into him, which would crush him.

If he can cancel subsequent effects caused by the initial supernatural effect. Just how far "down the line" does it go?
If a teleporter drops a shipping container on him where the teleport has already fully completed, does he touching it teleport it back to the original spot?
The container's new position and downward movement is a consequence of the supernatural ability of teleportation.

The short version is this- Imagine Breaker can cancel the immediate effect of the supernatural ability- For example the force produce by the railgun or the golem punch, but he cannot cancel the secondary result of the immediate effect. The common example is that he can negate the heat produce from Stiyl's flames, but he cannot destroy the smoke and ash produce from the heat and flames.
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Old 2011-01-08, 08:41   Link #391
Salt
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Originally Posted by tsunade666 View Post
Down to the core. Like heat after effects and burn after effects. As long as it's created by esper power and is powered by magic which is in the limits of not being a divine level. It can be canceled out.

Now for teleporter. Teleporting directly into him or near him or him is useless. Just like what Kuroko attempted on teleporting him to hide him from the dorm manager. IF you want to beat him in by a teleporter. And teleport a big one which is from above and drop it on him or teleport it on his sides which is not in his range of effects.

Now the question is how big is the area of effects of imagine breaker. Even I didn't understand it much. He can disrupt and cancel out area of effects or ritual type just being their in the affected zone thought their are exceptions if their is a core which continuesly supplying it with magic or aim which make it regenerate again and again.
Define "down to the core"

The problem is, let say:

A (supernatural effect) -> B (natural consequence of A) -> C (natural consequence of B) -> D ...

Just how far down the line of chain of events can he cancel?

Dropping a shipping container via teleport on him will kill him, yes I know it's gravity that accelerates the container, however lets say it was originally at ground level then the potential energy of the container will be given to it via the teleportation to the height above him.

In that case a coin given kinetic energy by electricity will kill him too - note once it leaves Misaka's hand she no longer has anything to do with it, it's just a normal projectile like a bullet from a gun.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post

The short version is this- Imagine Breaker can cancel the immediate effect of the supernatural ability- For example the force produce by the railgun or the golem punch, but he cannot cancel the secondary result of the immediate effect. The common example is that he can negate the heat produce from Stiyl's flames, but he cannot destroy the smoke and ash produce from the heat and flames.
The electricity of the railgun accelerates the coin, if removed the coin stops accelerating, but newton's 1st law indicates that "Every body remains in a state of rest or uniform motion (constant velocity) unless it is acted upon by an external unbalanced force." so the coin is still moving a many times the speed of sound, hence it's effectively a bullet.

So you agree with me he can only cancel the initial supernatural effect?

If so the contradiction comes in the form of the golem fight, I mentioned above.
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Old 2011-01-08, 08:46   Link #392
Chaos2Frozen
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Originally Posted by Salt View Post
The electricity of the railgun accelerates the coin, if removed the coin stops accelerating, but newton's 1st law indicates that "Every body remains in a state of rest or uniform motion (constant velocity) unless it is acted upon by an external unbalanced force." so the coin is still moving a many times the speed of sound, hence it's effectively a bullet.

So you agree with me he can only cancel the initial supernatural effect?

If so the contradiction comes in the form of the golem fight, I mentioned above.
I say again- It's the Supernatural ability (Golem) and it's immediate effect (Whatever force it generates). It cannot stop the secondary result (A crater in the ground) from happening.


Supernatural ability (Railgun) , Immediate effect (Whatever force it generates plus electric residue(?)) , secondary result that cannot be negate (hole in the wall or thunderous sonic boom)
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Old 2011-01-08, 08:52   Link #393
Salt
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
I say again- It's the Supernatural ability (Golem) and it's immediate effect (Whatever force it generates). It cannot stop the secondary result (A crate in the ground) from happening.

Supernatural ability (Railgun) , Immediate effect (Whatever force it generates plus electric residue(?)) , secondary result that cannot be negate (hole in the wall or thunderous sonic boom)
The supernatural ability is to animate the golem, allowing it to move, in another use magic to exert force on it's various parts holding it together against gravity and moving it.

Imagine breaker will remove the force generated, but the momentum of the rock that makes up the golem doesn't go away.

If he can remove that too, just how far does the chain of events go?
As far as it's convenient for storyline purposes? If so that is just lazy.

Edit:
Unless of course the magic doesn't generate force, but movement directly. That is one way to remove the contradiction.
Won't save him from biribiri's railgun though, since it follows the physics of a real railgun which generates force via electricity.
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Old 2011-01-08, 08:57   Link #394
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salt View Post
The supernatural ability is to animate the golem, allowing it to move, in another use magic to exert force on it's various parts holding it together against gravity and moving it.

Imagine breaker will remove the force generated, but the momentum of the rock that makes up the golem doesn't go away.

If he can remove that too, just how far does the chain of events go?
As far as it's convenient for storyline purposes? If so that is just lazy.
Given what he is now, it is almost guaranteed that anything not normal thrown at him will fail. Leave it at that. You may want to try to tear down Touma's image but why bother defining something (Imagine Breaker) that cannot be defined by either science or magic?
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Old 2011-01-08, 08:57   Link #395
Chaos2Frozen
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Originally Posted by Salt View Post
The supernatural ability is to animate the golem, allowing it to move, in another use magic to exert force on it's various parts holding it together against gravity and moving it.

Imagine breaker will remove the force generated, but the momentum of the rock that makes up the golem doesn't go away.

If he can remove that too, just how far does the chain of events go?
As far as it's convenient for storyline purposes? If so that is just lazy.
Golems are special, aside from the initial ability use to create it, it's existence is a supernatural occurrence as well. And apparently, whatever force and momentum or whatever it generates would then be considered unnatural.

I have not yet seen his ability cancel a crater in the ground so I suppose that's where the chain ends.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Salt View Post
Won't save him from biribiri's railgun though, since it follows the physics of a real railgun which generates force via electricity.
Follow the physics, but it's still created from and unnatural source... It's not impossible that the forces generated from her supernatural electricity might be supernatural itself.
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Old 2011-01-08, 09:01   Link #396
tsunade666
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even in latest novel. It's not explain on how far can he cancel an attack.

A dimensional attack can be cancel by imagine breaker but once the dimension is destroyed he can't cancel it anymore. It's morel like as long as a power is acting on it. It can be cancel but once physical matters are destroyed by the said power it can't be canceled anymore.
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Old 2011-01-08, 09:14   Link #397
Salt
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Given what he is now, it is almost guaranteed that anything not normal thrown at him will fail. Leave it at that. You may want to try to tear down Touma's image but why bother defining something (Imagine Breaker) that cannot be defined by either science or magic?
While I don't find him all that interesting and think he is a poor lead character, this has nothing to do with him in particular.

It's just annoying when stories are not internally consistent.

Things like accel and misaka abilities might cause inconsistencies too as the break the laws of physics but I have not notice anything yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Golems are special, aside from the initial ability use to create it, it's existence is a supernatural occurrence as well. And apparently, whatever force and momentum or whatever it generates would then be considered unnatural.

I have not yet seen his ability cancel a crater in the ground so I suppose that's where the chain ends.



Follow the physics, but it's still created from and unnatural source... It's not impossible that the forces generated from her supernatural electricity might be supernatural itself.
This is the main point of contention.

By your logic everything that follows will be supernatural.

Just how far down the chain does it go?

It would be pure laziness if how far it cancels depends on the needs of the plot.
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Old 2011-01-08, 09:22   Link #398
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This is the main point of contention.

By your logic everything that follows will be supernatural.

Just how far down the chain does it go?

It would be pure laziness if how far it cancels depends on the needs of the plot.

Dakara... Hole in the ground... -_-
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Old 2011-01-08, 09:23   Link #399
Salt
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Dakara... Hole in the ground... -_-
Still it's a very vague limit as to where it ends. :s


IMO fixing it at just the initial supernatural effect would be the easiest and most sensible solution.

Everything in the anime up to S02E08 fits - the case of the golem cam be explained away as direct generation of movement rather than force; although that might has it's own problems ... Best not to think too much.

Whether the author shares my view is unknown, but it will cut down on the deus ex machina feel of the show as well as make it easier to establish creditable opponents.

PS: sorry for separate post, computer broke, posting from phone, editing long posts are a PITA.
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Old 2011-01-08, 09:26   Link #400
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Just take it a field of magic is wrapped around the golem,
and it is what gives the golem form and movement.
If the field is removed, it'll just be a pile of rubble.
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