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Old 2009-10-04, 10:24   Link #81
velvet nightmare
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when hurling objects arn't accelerator's and mikoto's ability the same? they both apply forces to an object and move them quickly with the intent to harm something

what i get from previous arguments is that at the point of impact, the rail gun is still applying the force allowing touma to block it, but that's not what a real railgun does right? once the object is airborne, the railgun itself can be taken out of the picture


weaker argument:
isn't it also possible that the author and his/her team don't know how a railgun works and made the mistake, kind of like how the creator of gundam seed was dumb enough bring back mwu because they didn't know how the physics of their own show worked?
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Old 2009-10-04, 10:28   Link #82
MeisterBabylon
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That's probably it. From the way the 'railgun' Misaka fires, it's more of an Omglaser! type of attack rather than an actual railgun from say Transformers 2.
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Old 2009-10-04, 10:39   Link #83
Keroko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by velvet nightmare View Post
when hurling objects arn't accelerator's and mikoto's ability the same? they both apply forces to an object and move them quickly with the intent to harm something

what i get from previous arguments is that at the point of impact, the rail gun is still applying the force allowing touma to block it, but that's not what a real railgun does right? once the object is airborne, the railgun itself can be taken out of the picture
Yes, that would be a valid argument, if not for Touma also blocking Sasha's water blast during the memory swap arc. That was real water manipulated by magic fired straight at Touma, which he blocked and negated completely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by velvet nightmare View Post
weaker argument:
isn't it also possible that the author and his/her team don't know how a railgun works and made the mistake, kind of like how the creator of gundam seed was dumb enough bring back mwu because they didn't know how the physics of their own show worked?
There's a lot of physics they choose to ignore, true, but the concept of an accelerated coin was quite clearly stated, as were Touma's words that he could block it, even though he darned well knows what a Railgun is.

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Originally Posted by MeisterBabylon View Post
That's probably it. From the way the 'railgun' Misaka fires, it's more of an Omglaser! type of attack rather than an actual railgun from say Transformers 2.
The laser flash is only done for the looks, rule of cool and all that. Let's not start analyzing these kinds of visual details too deeply.
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Old 2009-10-04, 12:45   Link #84
velvet nightmare
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now that i think carefully what a railgun is, isn't mikoto's ability similar to the plasma attack of accelerator?

mikoto uses electricity to create the magnetic field, so isnt that similar to accelerator applying forces to superheat the air into plasma? if that's the case then if he can't block the plasma, he shouldn't be able to block an accelerated penny. the dumbed down version of mikoto's attack wouldn't be different than her walking around with a huge magnet that pushes everything away

i know im probably beating on a dead horse by now, but im the kind of guy who gets excited when science gets applied to anime

is it 'safe' to say that mikoto is a special case in which she falls right in between ESP and magic? what i mean is he can't block accelerator's attacks (which in my book do the same thing a railgun attack) but can block magic impacts like fireballs, water and earth things that are already in motion
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Old 2009-10-04, 12:50   Link #85
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Originally Posted by velvet nightmare View Post
is it 'safe' to say that mikoto is a special case in which she falls right in between ESP and magic? what i mean is he can't block accelerator's attacks (which in my book do the same thing a railgun attack) but can block magic impacts like fireballs, water and earth things that are already in motion
Are you implying that maybe Mikoto is not only a powerful Level 5 Psychic but a Magic user too?

Now that would be a great twist if it was true!
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Old 2009-10-04, 14:08   Link #86
Keroko
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Originally Posted by MrTerrorist View Post
Are you implying that maybe Mikoto is not only a powerful Level 5 Psychic but a Magic user too?

Now that would be a great twist if it was true!
It'd be awesome (though perhaps a bit too much mary sueish), but impossible. Remember, psychics cannot use magic, it tears them appart.

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Originally Posted by velvet nightmare View Post
now that i think carefully what a railgun is, isn't mikoto's ability similar to the plasma attack of accelerator?

mikoto uses electricity to create the magnetic field, so isnt that similar to accelerator applying forces to superheat the air into plasma?
Well, the funny thing is that the entire 'stop Accelerator from creating a plasma attack' is a plothole of its own. After all, there is no reason why Touma shouldn't have been able to stop it, being that it was created through psychic powers and all. In fact, they never say he can't stop it, Mikoto just assumes he can't.

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Originally Posted by velvet nightmare View Post
is it 'safe' to say that mikoto is a special case in which she falls right in between ESP and magic? what i mean is he can't block accelerator's attacks (which in my book do the same thing a railgun attack) but can block magic impacts like fireballs, water and earth things that are already in motion
There are different explanations than this one, which is actually impossible, and its that even if Touma stopped the steel bars raining down on top of him, all he would be doing is reduce the motion of the steel bars to zero. Being that the steel bars are still... y'know... above him, gravity would be its usual bitch and drop the things on top of him anyway. Steel bars don't need psychically enhanced speed to kill people they drop on.

There's also the issue of numbers. Even if he can stop one steel bar, there's half a dozen more ready to hit him. Better to run than risk imminent death, because anything that hits anywhere else than his hand would still do all its usual work.
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Old 2009-10-04, 14:57   Link #87
velvet nightmare
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Well, the funny thing is that the entire 'stop Accelerator from creating a plasma attack' is a plothole of its own. After all, there is no reason why Touma shouldn't have been able to stop it, being that it was created through psychic powers and all. In fact, they never say he can't stop it, Mikoto just assumes he can't.



There are different explanations than this one, which is actually impossible, and its that even if Touma stopped the steel bars raining down on top of him, all he would be doing is reduce the motion of the steel bars to zero. Being that the steel bars are still... y'know... above him, gravity would be its usual bitch and drop the things on top of him anyway. Steel bars don't need psychically enhanced speed to kill people they drop on.
good point, didnt remember mikoto's observation

the second point here brings up another thought (im getting too picky probably) if the flying steel beams were flying paralell to the ground, after coming into contact with IB they'd just fall straight to the ground wouldn't they? no harm done to touma, but the ones coming from the sky would have gravity on their side. which makes me wonder what made touma looked like he was 'forced' to dodge everything when he could have stopped some of them if not use them as leverage after they have been stopped

what i wanted to bring up was if mikoto walked around with pennies that weighed 1 ton instead of 1 gram she'd be more deadly to touma?

which also brings up the point of what accelerator's power actually does (using actual physics vectors) you're saying that IB nullifies the forward vector applied by the guy but gravity is left eventually bringing the object straight down

so if accelerator does a railgun attack with a penny, touma would be able to stop it just like with mikoto
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Old 2009-10-04, 14:59   Link #88
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Yes, that would be a valid argument, if not for Touma also blocking Sasha's water blast during the memory swap arc. That was real water manipulated by magic fired straight at Touma, which he blocked and negated completely.
Gabriel's water have been infused with Telsma, which is why Touma can block it.

And by this statement, the likelyhood of Touma bloking the railgun is that he can.
As the coin is infused with psychic power to speed up, so Touma should be able to cancel the coin's entire acceleration. BUT, the shock wave and the momentum created by the initial acceleration cannot be cancelled, and that is going to blow Touma apart.
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Old 2009-10-04, 15:06   Link #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Well, the funny thing is that the entire 'stop Accelerator from creating a plasma attack' is a plothole of its own. After all, there is no reason why Touma shouldn't have been able to stop it, being that it was created through psychic powers and all. In fact, they never say he can't stop it, Mikoto just assumes he can't.
Or that it is something she and the Imoutos can do something about. Sitting back and watching other people fight when she can do something doesn't sit well with Mikoto.
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Old 2009-10-04, 15:29   Link #90
Keroko
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There's that, too.

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Originally Posted by shmaster View Post
Gabriel's water have been infused with Telsma, which is why Touma can block it.
Yes, and as soon as he touches it, it would have become regular water again, but still regular water with the momentum of the attack. If Touma can't block a railgun, then he shouldn't have been able to block that water attack either.

And I will point out once again, so far we have three sources say that it is possible from Touma's own mouth, and one source actually showing him doing it.

However, there are zero sources proving, or even saying, that he can't.
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Old 2009-10-04, 16:12   Link #91
dahak
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And I will point out once again, so far we have three sources say that it is possible from Touma's own mouth, and one source actually showing him doing it.

However, there are zero sources proving, or even saying, that he can't.
Spoiler for And to fan the flames there is this incident:
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Old 2009-10-04, 21:24   Link #92
Clarste
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Given that I only have the vaguest idea of what power caused that explosion (making aluminum explode... somehow), I'm not even going to touch that one.
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Old 2009-10-04, 21:34   Link #93
BlueDo
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This thread title is a spoiler
Ok, maybe that's going too far...

Yes, this is the same concept as Railgun.
The ESP is involved in making that aluminum explode.
The explosion is thus natural, and should'n't be negated.

Ah who cares.
This way, it's more dramatic in the Railgun storyline.
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Old 2009-10-04, 22:35   Link #94
velvet nightmare
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Originally Posted by shmaster View Post
As the coin is infused with psychic power to speed up, so Touma should be able to cancel the coin's entire acceleration.
but that's not what a 'rail gun' does, there is no more 'speeding up' of the object once it leaves the 'rails' of the 'gun'. what you're referring to is something self propelled which would mean a rocket or a missile which is the closest thing to anything in real life


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BUT, the shock wave and the momentum created by the initial acceleration cannot be cancelled, and that is going to blow Touma apart.
i can tell you from the point of physics, a shockwave or blast wave coming from something the size of the penny is negligible but the momentum is the force of the projectile going forward, which is what we've been trying to determine is able to be stopped or not



for now im probably going to end up agreeing with keroko's points
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Old 2009-10-04, 23:28   Link #95
shmaster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
There's that, too.



Yes, and as soon as he touches it, it would have become regular water again, but still regular water with the momentum of the attack. If Touma can't block a railgun, then he shouldn't have been able to block that water attack either.

And I will point out once again, so far we have three sources say that it is possible from Touma's own mouth, and one source actually showing him doing it.

However, there are zero sources proving, or even saying, that he can't.
Gabriel's water just fall apart like same reason the Ars Magna clones simply fell apart when Touma touches it.
The clones are made of regular phsyical material depsite animated by Ars Magna, so by your logic, when Touma toches them, they'll just stop mvoing, not break apart. But the thing is, they did. Regular phsyical material that has been mixed or held together by magical force well dissolve and break apart after Touma touches it (Another example would be Moving Sanctuary, a normal piece of clothing infused with magic), so nothing is left to carry out the momentum. Unlike rail gun, the coin itself is not mixed with esper power just speed up by it, so it is not going to break apart if Touma touches it and thus still carry out the momentum.

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but that's not what a 'rail gun' does, there is no more 'speeding up' of the object once it leaves the 'rails' of the 'gun'. what you're referring to is something self propelled which would mean a rocket or a missile which is the closest thing to anything in real life
That is a debate I don't want to get into actually, as I am one of "it is not rail gun but more of a laser" believer.

I think what we should determine here is whether the physical effect created by the supernatural powers are primary or secondary? I am very certain that Touma can cancel out the secondary (the shell created by Katina=Original is a good example), but the description on the primary is still vague.
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Old 2009-10-05, 00:47   Link #96
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Seems like Toma's power is not limited to stopping ESP and magical power, it seems to stop the side effect generated by these powers as well, eg the explosive power generated by the aluminum explosion and rail gun projectile's heat and velocity.

However stuff like floating steel bar would still harm him since they tend to drop on top of him when the power is disabled?

Also I find it interesting that his hand can dispel his luck as well, meaning that his power is in effect 24/7?
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Old 2009-10-05, 00:52   Link #97
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As I said way back in this thread before it was split off (I can't remember what thread it started it), the problem with assuming the ability to dispel secondary effects is that it leads to bizarre situations where he can undo damage caused by electricity, un-teleport objects, unburn things, and basically reverse time in general. Because that's just what a secondary effect is, the effects that are caused by the supernatural powers. What makes the momentum of a coin a different kind of secondary effect than something being burned by magic fire?
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Old 2009-10-05, 02:01   Link #98
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The fact that Touma has always been confident of his ability to block anything means that he's probably been blocking the world of Science before the Walking Cathedral even got to him.

Maybe he can reverse time in general. Maybe Aleistor is Touma from the future after understanding how his power can work. Who knows? They are probably saving the best twist for the last, and while it has been well-researched, even Ryukishi and Umineko has had it's duper-ridiculous moments, much less Railgun World.

I refuse to call this world Index World! Nor shall I continue to call it Toumaverse!
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Old 2009-10-05, 03:02   Link #99
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Imagine Breaker is an ability that negates any kind of magic/ESP's effect. Or should I say returns everything to the state before the magic. Mikoto's railgun is still powered by her ESP when it reached Touma so it's been reversed to the way it originally was before Mikoto shooting it at him.
There's an another case where simply negating magic shouldn't possibily reversed the effect. It's when Touma negates the memory-eraesing effect of Aureolus's alchemy. Because the memory shouldn't be existent at all after that, simply negating the magic shouldn't return his memories at all. Afterall it would be like reviving somone after being blasted by a fireball...impossible.
So Touma's IB actually reverses things to the state just before the use of any kind of special power.
That's my theory.
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Old 2009-10-05, 03:35   Link #100
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...so he can revive someone who's blasted by a fireball?
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