AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > To Aru Majutsu no Index

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2009-10-16, 18:43   Link #161
typhonsentra
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
Railguns are not magic or fictional. They really exist. I've made one for a physics class once. They have properties that can be verified by reference to reality. They do not work at all like you seem to think they do. Even if she was continuously accelerating it all along its path, it would still have momentum after the electricity was negated. You're just wrong, sorry.
You misunderstand why I put it in quotations. What I'm suggesting is that her attack doesn't work the same way as an actual railgun, which actually makes sense seeing as how real rail guns don't actually fire out electrical energy, only the bullet fired exits the weapon. That's not the case in this series, hence the quotations.
typhonsentra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-10-18, 07:54   Link #162
al103
Grumpy Russian bear
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Russia, Krasnoyarsk
Age: 33
Send a message via ICQ to al103
Heh. One thing to consider... if Touma is psychic it entirely possible that he rejects supernatural related stuff that he THINKS he can reject. Just like with that alchemist idiot...
__________________
Proud Nanoha/Yuno/Fate, Caro/Elio/Lutecia, Alto/Sheril/Ranka and Honor/Hamish/Emily shipper. Last one even canon.

PS. Also Nanoha/job, Honor/job and Rein/Agito.
PPS. Proud Athrun/Cagalli/Meyrin shipper.
al103 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-10-18, 14:34   Link #163
Dean_the_Young
Has a life IRL
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Somewhere in the Anglo-Saxon Sphere
Quote:
Originally Posted by al103 View Post
Heh. One thing to consider... if Touma is psychic it entirely possible that he rejects supernatural related stuff that he THINKS he can reject. Just like with that alchemist idiot...
Isn't that what an esper is? They can do something simply because they think they can? Like Clarste said...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
I find it amusing that we have this whole thread to argue about what seems to be a plothole. If it says he can, then he can, it just doesn't make much sense so no use arguing about it.
Which not only covers Touma, but every other esper in the series as well. Let's take Misaka for example: how, pray tell, does controlling electricity make a chain whip possible? Or accelerator: even if you can change vectors, how does that enable acting as a computer? By strict laws of phsycis, it doesn't. But they think it does, and so it happens. Which is what esper powers in Index are all about. Greater powers are obtainable by people broadening their imagination/mental strength. Technically, there shouldn't be a reason for any limit of esper power.

Now, my take is: hasn't Touma been an esper from the start? Call him whatever level you want, but so long as his power is esper directed (it works because he expects it to), it's less plot hole and more simple mental directive. The limits of his power are, as with all other espers, what he believes them to be. And his understanding of what his limits should be is probably close to what dahak suggests:



Quote:
Originally Posted by dahak View Post
Actually in general if the person causing the effect is still concentrating on it [or possibly just still pumping AIM into it] Touma seems to be able to cancel active secondary effects by touching the primary. Style being dismembered, Railgun secondaries, the way the Chainsaw Whip totally collapses when he touches just a small part of it.

While Touma is actively relying on the imagine breaker it appears to be able to provide an area shield that works against active secondary effects. The graviton bomb and Styles Fire Elemental are examples of Touma and people behind him not being effected. Electrokinetic telepathy not working might also be in this category. When he has to rely on this his bad luck seems to get worse for a while, things in this category are mostly among the most powerful we've seen and in generaL are not totally cancelled by the imagine breaker.

Effects that have finished [No longer having AIM input?] don't seem to be affected. The power grid being out due to the Lightning strike on the bridge, Angels Feather, Golem damage to doors, Tree Diagram being destroyed. It isn't much good at reversing entropy.

Like all the other supernatural abilities, Magic, divine or Psychic in this setting, it appears to work at least partially based on what the user thinks it can do. Touma thinks it can stop railgun strikes and so his power does what is necessary. Touma doesn't think it can resurrect Imoutos killed by Accelerator, but whether that is a lack of raw power [if his power was stronger it could], capability [he can't cope with the subconscious calculations necessary to put everything back to normal or he can't reverse entropy] or just be cause he doesn't believe it can is up in the air.
Now, personally, I would expect that Touma's ability could be strengthened if he mentally believed it should.

Where, exactly, does his hand end? What boundary of cells separates yes from no? Is it his palm? His wrist? Why stop there? It's similar to the mountain of sand question: if I have 10,000 grains of sand that we agree is a mountain, how about 9,999? What happens if I take one more? Is one grain a mountain?

Similarly, if Touma (or any similar esper) were to ask such questions, I would expect to see the power inch down across their body.

In some respects, we saw something like that: when summoning the angel for Index, Touma was kicked out lest his hand interrupt the ceremony. But why? His hand wouldn't be touching anything except the air around him... which is touching the air around it, which expands to the ceremony itself. Even indirectly he is affecting the ceremony (and his luck in general) because he expects to.


Treating Touma's power as an ESP ability, ie affected by his perceptions, simplifies everything, and makes seeming contradictions less plot-hole and more basic esper nonsense.
Dean_the_Young is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-10-28, 00:32   Link #164
JokerD
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
If we were to classify Touma's ability as a power, what level would you guys rate his 'Imagine Breaker'?

I would personally rate it at a level 3.
Power scale alone, it would rate a level 4, not 5 since we know that it has limits but -1 level since he does not seems to have much control over it. I'll rate it a 5 if it every goes full body mode like the accelerator's

Also, anyone else thinks that his power and MO from MX0 is similar?
JokerD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-10-28, 07:51   Link #165
Clarste
Human
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Age: 28
I'd rate it level 5 because it cancels out anything. In that sense, it doesn't have any limitations. It's perfectly accurate and powerful and whatnot. Possibly level 6, depending on what that means exactly. I'm assuming that the levels measure the power of the ability, rather than the power of the user. Accelerator isn't level 5 because he's unbeatable, he's level 5 because his power works on everything perfectly efficiently.

As for similarities... Anti-Magic is a pretty common thing.
Clarste is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-10-28, 09:11   Link #166
Marcus H.
Hunk o' Burning Love
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: the Philippines
I agree; he could be a Level 5 since he was able to dispel the abilities of both Accelerator and Mikoto and only Kaori has managed to injure him without sustaining injuries herself. Although how his ability works and can be classified is hindering him to be a Level anything.

Seems to me that there might be two kinds of Level 0's: the Unclassified (can't land on a Level Classification because of ability) and the Normals (like Tsuchimikado and Pierce). But well, that's just my two cents.
__________________
Marcus' Handpicked!
Summer 2014: Hanayamata, Rail Wars!, Rokujouma no Shinryakusha!?, Sabagebu!, Gekkan Shoujo Nozaki-kun and Hanamonogatari.
Autumn 2014: Log Horizon S2, Amagi Brilliant Park and Fate/Stay Night (2014).


Contact me on Wikia, MyAnimeList and Hummingbird.
MyAnimeList Status|| Watching: 36. Completed: 214. Plan to watch: 33.

Marcus H. is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-10-28, 10:38   Link #167
tsunade666
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: In my room
I rate him as level 1 or 0. His imagine breaker is only on his hand and stays their. If its level is higher then it could cover the whole body or can create a spot on the surroundings where super natural phenomena wouldn't exist.

And tsuchimikado has an esper ability. His ability let's him revive or regenerate himself after killing himself from his magic.
tsunade666 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-10-28, 11:03   Link #168
Miraluka
18 forever
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Age: 24
I rate him 0.
Tsuchimikado is rated 0 because his abililty is passive, he said somthing about doesn't matter how many times multiplies 0 it always be 0.
__________________

Deal with it!
Miraluka is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-10-28, 11:22   Link #169
WildArms
Come on, become a legend
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Age: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
Railguns are not magic or fictional. They really exist. I've made one for a physics class once. They have properties that can be verified by reference to reality. They do not work at all like you seem to think they do. Even if she was continuously accelerating it all along its path, it would still have momentum after the electricity was negated. You're just wrong, sorry.
So... now we can do railguns in physic classes? great! whats next? bazookas?
WildArms is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-10-28, 11:23   Link #170
LockeManuel
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Italy
0, because... well, Touma can dispel supernatural powers... but he can't do anything else.

Accelerator with his gun -> Touma is dead meat...
__________________
P.S.: Sorry for my BAD english!
LockeManuel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-10-28, 11:25   Link #171
WildArms
Come on, become a legend
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Age: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by LockeManuel View Post
0, because... well, Touma can dispel supernatural powers... but he can't do anything else.

Accelerator with his gun -> Touma is dead meat...
But we must remember touma's ability is not only to block... there was something else he did more than block... and it was to RUN! and strangely that strategy works for him
WildArms is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-10-28, 11:33   Link #172
LockeManuel
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Italy
Oh, then he has other strategies, like "dispel that mahoujin and the ceiling will fall on your enemy" (IB required) or "delete the runes ink with the fire sprinkler system"
__________________
P.S.: Sorry for my BAD english!

Last edited by LockeManuel; 2009-10-28 at 11:50.
LockeManuel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-10-28, 11:47   Link #173
Clarste
Human
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Age: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by WildArms View Post
So... now we can do railguns in physic classes? great! whats next? bazookas?
Well, I did make one. I'm not sure what else there is to say. It's not like they're inherently big weapons, it's just a way of moving something with magnetism. You can scale it up or down by changing the power or the rail length. The one I made was pretty small and could basically knock down cans.
Clarste is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-10-28, 12:34   Link #174
Ice Block
less qq; more pewpew
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Philippines
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young View Post
Let's take Misaka for example: how, pray tell, does controlling electricity make a chain whip possible? Or accelerator: even if you can change vectors, how does that enable acting as a computer?
Think deeper, do a little research, and open your mind. Only then will you see the possibilities. Remember, we're not talking about how they do it, but what they are doing. For example:
  • How does controlling electricity make a chain whip possible? What holds the iron together? What causes electrical currents?
  • How can Accelerator reprogram your brain? What makes up our memories and consciousness? What processes happen in the brain that allow it to function?
Science is the expansive, never-ending search for knowledge. What may not make sense (to some) now may be common knowledge 200 years from now -- history has taught us much. The more you know...
__________________
Ice Block is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-10-28, 13:33   Link #175
Clarste
Human
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Age: 28
Hint: Electricity is magnetism. Note that railguns are also magnetism.
Clarste is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-10-28, 16:36   Link #176
Dean_the_Young
Has a life IRL
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Somewhere in the Anglo-Saxon Sphere
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice Block View Post
Think deeper, do a little research, and open your mind. Only then will you see the possibilities. Remember, we're not talking about how they do it, but what they are doing. For example:
  • How does controlling electricity make a chain whip possible? What holds the iron together? What causes electrical currents?
  • How can Accelerator reprogram your brain? What makes up our memories and consciousness? What processes happen in the brain that allow it to function?
Science is the expansive, never-ending search for knowledge. What may not make sense (to some) now may be common knowledge 200 years from now -- history has taught us much. The more you know...
Science also teaches you what is not possible. Physics demonstrates why things don't work. And biological precision, capacity, and conception are dwarfed by the infinite variables that have an effect on anything.

Psychic powers in Index work on the rule of cool and whatever-I-want-it-to psychic powers, not the actual implementation of the precise abilities described. Accelerator's power to change the vector of whatever he touches, for example, fails at the point that he isn't touching the neurons, brain matter, or inner body parts one would have to to 'reprogram' anything by touch. There are so many layers-within-layers involved that Accelerator's stated power would not work that way.


(Then again, the whole Accelerator arc was rather ridiculous at various points as well. Windmills don't make wind, electricity doesn't starve air like that, and a project to kill 20,000 people, even at just a rate of 2 a day (not supported in anime, where it was about one a day) would take over 27 years.)

Index plays with bad science and loose internal logic. That's fine, so long as you recognize it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
Hint: Electricity is magnetism. Note that railguns are also magnetism.
Note also that she doesn't use an actual railgun, or else Touma couldn't block it.
Dean_the_Young is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-10-28, 20:05   Link #177
xKeen
Member
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Malaysia
Anyone saw the railgun in transformers? I was watching with my friend who watches index too.
We were like, 'lol railgun.'
The railgun is produced by her ESP,so isn't it still supernatural?
xKeen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-10-28, 20:42   Link #178
MeisterBabylon
~ Ping For Effect ~
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: The Golden Throne
Age: 28
I play Tau in Warhammer 40K. I too wish my Railgun was this cute.

As in really, Misaka gets a 2+ invulnerable save in close combat just by making that Episode 4 scared face, and forcing her opponent, even if they are Fearless, to take a leadership test or consolidate backwards! I want a Railgun like that!!!
__________________

On money: Every man has a price. For everything else, there's MakoCard.
MeisterBabylon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-10-28, 21:22   Link #179
Clarste
Human
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Age: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young View Post
Note also that she doesn't use an actual railgun, or else Touma couldn't block it.
Didn't we establish that Touma can probably block it because he thinks he can? I feel like you're applying the "lolanimephysics" to the wrong side of the situation.
Clarste is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-10-28, 23:02   Link #180
shmaster
Hanged Man & Chariot
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young View Post
(Then again, the whole Accelerator arc was rather ridiculous at various points as well. Windmills don't make wind, electricity doesn't starve air like that, and a project to kill 20,000 people, even at just a rate of 2 a day (not supported in anime, where it was about one a day) would take over 27 years.)

? I thought it is becuase there is no wind but the windmill is still moving and the electricity is moving the windmill directly by leaking intot he engine part. Would that really work is still questionable.

Any way, the project of killing 20000 Sisters actually was not meant to be finished, technically, it is not a project to let Accelerator evolve at all. The whole project is a huge disguise to hide Alietser's true intention on expanding the AIM field.
shmaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:25.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.