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Old 2009-04-24, 22:53   Link #221
Blackbeard D. Kuma
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Originally Posted by Phenomenal View Post
I think not.
I agree. Like I said before, Luffy can't expect to have his temporary allies watching his back all the time in case he gets into any trouble on the battlefield. They would be occupied enough as it is. Too many heavy hitters out there. Luffy's place is with the cannon fodder and perhaps some marine captains.
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Old 2009-04-24, 23:24   Link #222
Blackbeard D. Kuma
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Your emphasizing Luffy as an individual against two gigantic force too much. Luffy is roughly equivalent to Moria, and as we know, Moria has a place in the battle, so I see no reason to assume that Luffy also wouldn't have a place in the battle, albeit on the lower end of the scale (above cannon fodder, but below the "heavy hitters", the same as Moria)).
Just because Luffy beat Moria does not automatically make him his equal or stronger. Such an argument oversimplifies things. Luffy had far too much luck in that battle and a plot device (sun rise) forced Moria to lose and fight stupidly. His defeat was entirely circumstantial. Luffy had to win that battle, otherwise he and all of the other shadowless victims would be dead.

With that being said, I still believe that Moria is more powerful than Luffy. He just greatly underestimated him, and though that is a natural character flaw (arrogance) he possesses, I believe that he wouldn't take lightly any of the pirate veterans (i.e. Division Commanders) on Whitebeard's crew. When Kuma came to deliver a report to Moria, Moria had a very serious demeanor and was on his guard in case Kuma came for a fight. I feel that that is how seriously he will take this war. Luffy was a rookie in his eyes, and thus he took him too lightly which consequently impaired his ability to fight at his peak.
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Old 2009-04-24, 23:33   Link #223
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^I gave up on debating Luffy's place in the upcoming battle (there is far too much conjecture for my taste); what happens, happens. But, I will say this, Moria will only be fighting the grunts, cannon fodder and mid-level opponents (which is more or less who Luffy would be fighting). This is not a one-on-one battle, this is a gigantic team event, and right now Moria does not rank with the real heavy hitters, and consequently would not be battling them. He might be able to fight/equal one of Whitebeard's lesser commanders (much the same as Luffy being able to battle one of the Vice-Admirals), but, in all honesty, I am not really expecting to see Moria do anything in this upcoming battle (he will still be their fighting, but Oda probably will not show his fights).
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Old 2009-04-24, 23:37   Link #224
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Looks like Luffy wont be learning to control his Haki before the WB event either. Regular Luffy may not be stronger than Moria but give him Haki and I am pretty sure if he rematched he would still KO Moria pretty hard.
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Old 2009-04-24, 23:41   Link #225
andy
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Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma View Post
Just because Luffy beat Moria does not automatically make him his equal or stronger. Such an argument oversimplifies things. Luffy had far too much luck in that battle and a plot device (sun rise) forced Moria to lose and fight stupidly. His defeat was entirely circumstantial. Luffy had to win that battle, otherwise he and all of the other shadowless victims would be dead.

With that being said, I still believe that Moria is more powerful than Luffy. He just greatly underestimated him, and though that is a natural character flaw (arrogance) he possesses, I believe that he wouldn't take lightly any of the pirate veterans (i.e. Division Commanders) on Whitebeard's crew. When Kuma came to deliver a report to Moria, Moria had a very serious demeanor and was on his guard in case Kuma came for a fight. I feel that that is how seriously he will take this war. Luffy was a rookie in his eyes, and thus he took him too lightly which consequently impaired his ability to fight at his peak.
So did moria he had a huge Zombie that had luffy shadow and a whole army vs the SH so not lets talk about what you think would have happen or luffy had to much luck. I could turn around and said it moria who had luck , the fact is moria got beating by luffy . The WG send kuma there because they thought luffy could beat another warlord which he did.

Do you think in a One on One fight moria and just walk over luffy. If you think so i don't know what to say.

But this never going to end but Fact is luffy beat moria luck , skill, arrogance, whatever you want to call it, wipe out his 10 long years of work and he going to the battle so i don't see why luffy can't also.

like james said luffy does not have to fight any of the big boys cause the big boy will be fighting WB he just want to save ace and that what he going try to do .


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Fair enough. I'll also stop debating as to how certain characters will fare in this war and what role they'll play. In my eyes, Moria is a heavy hitter, but he's in the lower-tier of those heavy hitters. The way you speak of him really derogates him, I feel. He is a warlord after all, and that certainly means something. Having said this, he'll most likely fight one of Whitebeard's weaker division commanders and plenty of cannon fodder.
your out here saying hes warlord that has count for some thing but same time just going over Fact that WG send another warlord cause they thought he could lose. How does seem.
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Old 2009-04-24, 23:43   Link #226
Blackbeard D. Kuma
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^I gave up on debating Luffy's place in the upcoming battle (there is far too much conjecture for my taste); what happens, happens. But, I will say this, Moria will only be fighting the grunts, cannon fodder and mid-level opponents (which is more or less who Luffy would be fighting). This is not a one-on-one battle, this is a gigantic team event, and right now Moria does not rank with the real heavy hitters, and consequently would not be battling them. He might, at best, be able to fight/equal one of Whitebeard's lesser commanders, but, in all honesty, I am not really expecting to see Moria do anything in this upcoming battle.
Fair enough. I'll also stop debating as to how certain characters will fare in this war and what role they'll play. In my eyes, Moria is a heavy hitter, but he's in the lower-tier of those heavy hitters. The way you speak of him really derogates him, I feel. He is a warlord after all, and that certainly means something. Having said this, he'll most likely fight one of Whitebeard's weaker division commanders and plenty of cannon fodder.
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Old 2009-04-24, 23:48   Link #227
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So did moria he had a huge Zombie that had luffy shadow and a whole army vs the SH so not lets talk about what you think would have happen or luffy had to much luck. I could turn around and said it moria who had luck , the fact is moria got beating by luffy . The WG send kuma there because they thought luffy could beat another warlord which he did.

Do you think in a One on One fight moria and just walk over luffy. If you think so i don't know what to say.

But this never going to end but Fact is luffy beat moria luck , skill, arrogance, whatever you want to call it, wipe out his 10 long years of work and he going to the battle so i don't see why luffy can't also.
Moria's zombie army is part of his ability. He was just using his shadow fruit to its utmost potential/capability. How does that make him lucky?

And yes, I am still not convinced that Luffy could beat Moria one on one. Remember in their first encounter, how Moria just used his doppleman and brick bats and Luffy couldn't even do anything to him? Mind you, he wasn't even trying either, so just imagine if he got completely serious.
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Old 2009-04-24, 23:53   Link #228
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Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma View Post
Fair enough. I'll also stop debating as to how certain characters will fare in this war and what role they'll play. In my eyes, Moria is a heavy hitter, but he's in the lower-tier of those heavy hitters. The way you speak of him really derogates him, I feel. He is a warlord after all, and that certainly means something. Having said this, he'll most likely fight one of Whitebeard's weaker division commanders and plenty of cannon fodder.
To put things in perspective: Isn't your constant ranking of Moria over Luffy a form of derogation, considering that Luffy did, in fact (despite your perception/interpretation of the outcome), defeat Moria?

That being said, fair enough. I gave you my ranking/numerical breakdown of the Shichibukai a month or so ago, so while I fully acknowledge Moria and his place in the Shichibukai, I simply don't think he is up there with his "brethren".

If nothing else, we both agree that he will get one of the weaker division commanders and a sh*t load of grunts (he needs to build up his zombie army again, after all (in fact, that would be pretty cool, if he simply wandered around the battlefield on a ship with hundreds of corpses, and he just grabbed passersby, took their shadows (and shoving the bodies in a brig so they didn't turn to dust in the sun), and then sent the zombies to attack others; that would be kind of cool )).
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Old 2009-04-24, 23:54   Link #229
andy
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Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma View Post
Moria's zombie army is part of his ability. He was just using his shadow fruit to its utmost potential/capability. How does that make him lucky?

And yes, I am still not convinced that Luffy could beat Moria one on one. Remember in their first encounter, how Moria just used his doppleman and brick bats and Luffy couldn't even do anything to him? Mind you, he wasn't even trying either, so just imagine if he got completely serious.
And luffy was not using his gears his attack hardly hurt luffy and luffy was in rush to get his crew shadows back. If he was serious what would he have done would he be faster or able to kept up with a gear 2 luffy .

But let stop this, its never going to end .
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Old 2009-04-25, 00:06   Link #230
Blackbeard D. Kuma
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To put things in perspective: Isn't your constant ranking of Moria over Luffy a form of derogation, considering that Luffy did, in fact (despite your perception/interpretation of the outcome), defeat Moria?
Not really when considering the circumstances and the fact that Luffy has the power of resolve and luck on his side at all times. It's his way of getting by opponents who are superior to him. Had Luffy not gotten that 100 shadow power up and damaged Moria to such a great extent with his own strength, I would have conceded that he is stronger than Moria. But that simply didn't happen.

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That being said, fair enough. I gave you my ranking/numerical breakdown of the Shichibukai a month or so ago, so while I fully acknowledge Moria and his place in the Shichibukai, I simply don't think he is up there with his "brethren".
I too acknowledged this by saying all along that he's in the lower-tier of all the heavy hitters. Hence, he is inferior to a good majority of his "brethren".
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Old 2009-04-25, 00:26   Link #231
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Not really when considering the circumstances and the fact that Luffy has the power of resolve and luck on his side at all times. It's his way of getting by opponents who are superior to him. Had Luffy not gotten that 100 shadow power up and damaged Moria to such a great extent with his own strength, I would have conceded that he is stronger than Moria. But that simply didn't happen.
If Luffy had won the fight using the stolen powers, I would completely agree with you. Instead, he simply staggered Moria, allowing a brief respite in the fight, which then allowed Luffy and company to defeat Odz (which was the whole intention of giving Luffy the brief power-up in the first place - to battle the weapon called Odz). But, in the end, Luffy without any power-ups fought a Moria who was a 1000 time stronger, and won (it was your interpretation of the ending that I was questioning more than anything else). The amount of damage to Moria pre-power up is unknown, but considering that Luffy has knocked out opponents before, only for them to come back even stronger (Lucci), the info is only partially relevant (i.e. it is not a determiner in regards to the fight (or at least it isn't for me)).
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Old 2009-04-25, 00:48   Link #232
Blackbeard D. Kuma
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If Luffy had won the fight using the stolen powers, I would completely agree with you. Instead, he simply staggered Moria, allowing a brief respite in the fight, which then allowed Luffy and company to defeat Odz (which was the whole intention of giving Luffy the brief power-up in the first place - to battle the weapon called Odz). But, in the end, Luffy without any power-ups fought a Moria who was a 1000 time stronger, and won (it was your interpretation of the ending that I was questioning more than anything else). The amount of damage to Moria pre-power up is unknown, but considering that Luffy has knocked out opponents before, only for them to come back even stronger (Lucci), the info is only partially relevant (i.e. it is not a determiner in regards to the fight (or at least it isn't for me)).
And look at the condition Moria was in when he used Shadows Asgard. He was ridiculously weakened from Luffy's Nightmare Storm. Just think about it. He received multiple punches all over his body from the very hands that were able to stop Oz's rifle punch with no effort. Having said that, you can just imagine how much monstrous strength there was behind each punch Moria was hit by.

The fact that Moria was reduced to such a weakened state from the Nightmare Storm greatly negates the effects of his 1000 shadow power up, since he was no longer in good physical condition to fight. He was barely retaining consciousness after he got up from the barrage of punches he received, and while in this state he attempts a move that puts a heavy physical and mental strain on him that makes his susceptible to losing his shadows? What a convenient way of making him lose. Oda really dumbed him down for he could have just ran away until sunrise and that would be the end of it (swapping places with Doppleman and Brick Bat would have really helped). They would never be able to get their shadows back unless he specifically commanded them to go back to their owners.

As Zoro had stated, the battle had already been won by the strawhats by the time Moria executed his desperation move (Shadows Asgard). From that point on, it was just a race against time. From this, we can infer that Moria lost as a result of Luffy's power up.
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Old 2009-04-25, 01:01   Link #233
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And look at the condition Moria was in when he used Shadows Asgard. He was ridiculously weakened from Luffy's Nightmare Storm. Just think about it. He received multiple punches all over his body from the very hands that were able to stop Oz's rifle punch with no effort. Having said that, you can just imagine how much monstrous strength there was behind each punch Moria was hit by.

The fact that Moria was reduced to such a weakened state from the Nightmare Storm greatly negates the effects of his 1000 shadow power up, since he was no longer in good physical condition to fight. He was barely retaining consciousness after he got up from the barrage of punches he received, and while in this state he attempts a move that puts a heavy physical and mental strain on him that makes his susceptible to losing his shadows? What a convenient way of making him lose. Oda really dumbed him down for he could have just ran away until sunrise and that would be the end of it (swapping places with Doppleman and Brick Bat would have really helped). They would never be able to get their shadows back unless he specifically commanded them to go back to their owners.

So luffy still had the damage from putting the 100 shadows in him , or did you forget about that . But hey i can always say look Oda made moria strong by giving him 10 year plus to get army then for luffy to face him on his home turf. Oda should just have him in one on one fight where he would never have gotten luffy shadow in first place .

If you want to count all of moria help , plus years he had to get shadows , that help him get OZ in first place . I can count luffy power up which came from moria not thinking anybody could hold that much shadows in them to get as strong as OZ.

In fact If SH had time they would have gotten back all of there shadows since they knew the zombies weakness , But hey look Oda just gave moria even more help by making OZ puting the island towards sun light.
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Old 2009-04-25, 01:07   Link #234
Blackbeard D. Kuma
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So luffy still had the damage from putting the 100 shadows in him , or did you forget about that . But hey i can always say look Oda made moria strong by giving him 10 year plus to get army then for luffy to face him on his home turf. Oda should just have him in one on one fight where he would never have gotten luffy shadow in first place .
It doesn't matter because by the time Luffy's power up was over, he had already won. Therefore, Moria's defeat was because of Luffy's exponential increase in power from the 100 shadows. If Luffy didn't get this power up, things would have gone much differently.
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Old 2009-04-25, 01:17   Link #235
andy
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It doesn't matter because by the time Luffy's power up was over, he had already won. Therefore, Moria's defeat was because of Luffy's exponential increase in power from the 100 shadows. If Luffy didn't get this power up, things would have gone much differently.
Which come back to me ask how , if luffy was to fight in a one and one fight would moria have won. I can say it did not matter cause if moria face luffy with out any shadows he would get ask kick.

which is same as you saying if luffy did not get his power up.
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Old 2009-04-25, 01:27   Link #236
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Which come back to me ask how , if luffy was to fight in a one and one fight would moria have won. I can say it did not matter cause if moria face luffy with out any shadows he would get ask kick.
Yeah right. You're argument this whole time has been that Luffy is stronger than Moria simply because he beat him. And my response to this was, he only beat him because of a 100 shadow power-up. Do you understand? It wasn't Luffy's power to begin with. Whereas Oz and the zombie army are all a part of Moria's power. As for a one on one fight, again look what happened in their first encounter. It's true that Luffy didn't use his gears, but then again Moria was just playing around and look at how much trouble he was giving him. Luffy using the gears would indeed close this strength gap and even exceed it possibly, but then the gap in strength would open up again once Moria would get serious. In the end, Moria would still win.
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Old 2009-04-25, 02:22   Link #237
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@Blackbeard: Honestly, when it gets right down to it, Moria really doesn't have any abilities that can really hurt Luffy (besides stealing his shadow, which, if it can be used during the day, is an insta-kill technique). Brick Bat did nothing more than scratch Luffy; Doppelman/Kagemusha are amazing defensive techniques, but Gear 2 would undoubtedly equal the playing field; and the Shadow's Asgard form's sheer physical power (which he will never really have again) would not hurt Luffy that much (considering that physical attacks are almost nullified against rubberman Luffy); and Black Box (if it can be used outside of Shadow's Asgard), the strongest Shadow attack seen, was defeated quite easily by Luffy.

As for Nightmare Luffy, you seem to be forgetting that Moria entered the battlefield with a power-up already in place. That powerup was called Oz. Consequently, when Oda used Nightmare Luffy, it was literally just to equal the Moria/Oz combination (which was exaggerated to the point where it was said that they equaled the strength of a Yonkou). True, Oz was technically within Moria's power to us (because he can create zombie), but the combination of zombie and master was never a known ability nor is it naturally derived from a known ability (in fact, it was an entirely conditional ability that could only work with Oz), so it acts much the same as a "Power-up" (Added to that, Moria himself considered the combination with Oz a power-up needed to battle Kaidou, otherwise why would he have "built" Oz the way he did?). (Additionally, placing shadows in a living person was not a known ability, but it is derived from a known ability. In fact, this could be considered the more legitimate power-up, considering that it is an ability that Moria can do at any time in any fight (steal his opponents shadow, and then place it inside of himself, resulting in extra power/abilities).) Consequently, within the confines of the story, if there was no Oz, there would have been no Nightmare Luffy.

In the end, in a completely straight fight (much the same as the hypothetical fights you conducted in the Shichibukai thread), in which either opponents simply use the abilities they have on hand, heavy odds would be placed on Luffy to win the fight (especially if it is at night when they fight).

That being said, up until the Sabaody arc, and Kizaru's introduction (as well as the Pacifistas and Sentomaru), Moria was the best villain up to that point in the story (in fact, he is still better than the current villains). He was one of the strongest villains, with arguably the most interesting power in the series up to that point (much the same as I applaud Oda for starting the series by giving Luffy a strange, seemingly secondary, power, as opposed to the desire to give him a supremely powerful ability (ala fire, etc), Moria's Kage Kage no Mi is a beautifully designed fruit with some amazing possibilities and it is less obviously powerful which is always a bonus). But, no disrespect to Moria, but I find it a little silly that Luffy is being ranked below Moria after wining that fight. It makes no sense. And, I dislike how Moria fans always use the argument that he (Moria) would have won if he used his powers intelligently, as opposed to actually fighting, etc. It is very disingenuous to not only Luffy, but also Moria, and how Oda was constructing his character (as a badly damaged pirate that still longed for his dream, but his fear so consumed him that at the mere possibility that he could be losing any headway he thought he gained, he attempted to use a suicide technique (Asgard) just to buy time in hopes of winning). Moria was a beautifully flawed character that preferred the company of his zombies over actual living nakama.

Last edited by james0246; 2009-04-25 at 13:48.
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Old 2009-04-25, 03:09   Link #238
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Another epic chapter of One Piece with even more crazy shit happening. Its safe to say that this arc is gonna last at least another 100 chapters with this just being the beginning. Lots of questions remain though, Will the rest of the crew be able to regroup with luffy or will he have to go at marine headquarters without them? Will they all have substantial power ups by the time they regroup? It seemed as Nami would at least would get some new ability based on the fact that she landed on the weather island which is a natural complement to her abilities. Are the other pirates captured by Kizaru down in level 6? If not then where? Will Luffy encounter/free them? How will Luffy get to Marine HQ? By hijacking one of the ships?
All this and they have yet to go to the New world.

Cheers.
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Old 2009-04-25, 03:19   Link #239
andy
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Yeah right. You're argument this whole time has been that Luffy is stronger than Moria simply because he beat him. And my response to this was, he only beat him because of a 100 shadow power-up. Do you understand? It wasn't Luffy's power to begin with. Whereas Oz and the zombie army are all a part of Moria's power. As for a one on one fight, again look what happened in their first encounter. It's true that Luffy didn't use his gears, but then again Moria was just playing around and look at how much trouble he was giving him. Luffy using the gears would indeed close this strength gap and even exceed it possibly, but then the gap in strength would open up again once Moria would get serious. In the end, Moria would still win.
And i am say the way you say he only beat him because of the power up , i can say it only because luffy had such great will power that it allow him to hold 100 shadows.

Chapter 463 luffy face moria for first time luffy got hit with some bats then he got piss kick moria.
Moria then run from luffy when Oz show up in chapter 469

Chapter 474 kuma tell moria the WG fears they may lose another warlord because of the SH. The same chapter moria got piss of about what kuma told him he went and fight in OZ VS the SH. They were doing okay VS OZ and there were about to get more salt it was only because Moria was in OZ that they did not get back luffy shadow. This also allow Oz to power up

Oz is not a part of moria power his power allow him to make them zombies. In one of the later chapters you see moria with rest of the warlords . If fight was to break out Oz would not be there he would be no help in the fight that why i say he not a full part of his power . he also not something you can carry around like a sword or a gun.

you say if moria get serious he would beat luffy i ask how ,This same moria that had 1000 shadows in him punch luffy , stamp on him about 5 times and luffy got up like nothing happen .
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Old 2009-04-25, 04:00   Link #240
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you say if moria get serious he would beat luffy i ask how ,This same moria that had 1000 shadows in him punch luffy , stamp on him about 5 times and luffy got up like nothing happen .
Well Moria doesnt even need Shadow Asgard or Oz, he pretty much owned Luffy with doppelganger and brick bats at first fight.If he goes jet or giantic then there is Oz and Shadow Asgard.

Shadow Asgard at its full may defeat Luffy.Moria was wounded and barely in control of all shadows inside body after all those blows.He was couching shadows even before Luffy started on him.
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