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Old 2009-04-26, 08:34   Link #261
AceD
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Again, we have seen only one battle between two logia users. That is insuficient evidence to claim 'most of the time' or 'some times' or even anything but the two people in question being of roughly equal power.

All the battle between Ace and Smoker really shows was that the two are roughly of equal power, anything beyond that is speculation.
can;t even tell there equal power really, all it shows us was that in One Piece smoke and fire nullify each other, and lets face it...Ace wasn;t serious at all, he was just giving Luffy a few minutes to get away
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Old 2009-04-26, 08:43   Link #262
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On another note, Luffy had sent both Smoker and Ace through the wall of the restaurant with his "rocket" despite them both being logia users, how was that possible?
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Old 2009-04-26, 08:56   Link #263
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They were caught off guard. Logia users have to train temselves pretty high to always stay in elemental mode and as Kizaru showed when they are caught off guard they can be influenced by normal attack.

And Logia users changing into elemental shape has to train hard as it is not that simple according to Oda.
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Old 2009-04-26, 09:36   Link #264
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Originally Posted by Kafriel View Post
On another note, Luffy had sent both Smoker and Ace through the wall of the restaurant with his "rocket" despite them both being logia users, how was that possible?
To clarify junte86's post, Logia users must consciously change into their element for them to assume its form. If you catch a Logia user off guard, then they are susceptible to any kind of attack.

Anyway: my dream come true: Crocodile is back, and he's obviously going to play a major, cool role, as expected of him.

All I want now is to see Das Bones, and Enel make a comeback. Enel seems unlikely, but Das still has a chance...
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Old 2009-04-26, 09:58   Link #265
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enell will defintly be a cool comeback to the show after his fight with luffy in skypia...

i think if they will show an episode or 2 of each shibubukai telling there story,or even show mihawk more cos he is a great charcter,a meeting between him and zorro will be very cool after there last meeting,maybe to see how much there levels are diffrent,now that zorry is also a supernova...
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Old 2009-04-26, 15:44   Link #266
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
Um, Robin woke up after a few minutes and Luffy and the others were only out for an hour or two.
That's because they were woken up by some of the other strawhats. In a one on one battle, no one would be there to wake you up once you fall unconscious after being stripped of your shadow. But, even if we do go by what you're saying, Moria would still have the opportunity to kill his opponent during that short amount of time (few minutes to an hour or two, as you put it) in which his opponent is unconscious. The fact is that if Moria takes your shadow, you lose. End of story.

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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
Uhm, what am I wrong about ? I said that Lucci hurt Luffy more because his attacks were more precise and specific (like a singular nail entering a foot), whereas Shadow's Asgard attacks were more all encomposing and less specific (like walking on a bed of nails). And, I even pointed out that this has always been the case (maybe you were confused by my use of an analogy with nails; I was not talking about piercing here, rather I am talking about pressure and how it affects the body based on how the pressure is used - Lucci used pinpoint attacks meant to inflict maximum damage to specific areas; Moria used pure brute strength that was merely meant to crush, and, as we know Luffy has exceptional resistance to be crushed by anything).
I understood good and well what you were talking about. Trust me. You were saying that attacks that are highly concentrated into a single small point (i.e. Shigan - analogous to a single nail) would inflict more damage on Luffy than those that have the same (or more) concentrated power/force distributed over a much wider area (i.e. Asgard Moria's fists - analogous to a bed of nails). I have no objections to this, for this is only natural. The bearing stress upon impact is greatly alleviated/relieved when the force is applied over a bigger area.

S = F/A

Where S= Stress
F = Force
A = Area

As you know, the higher the denominator (A), the lower the stress will be. I know you understand this very well, it's just that I wanted to show you that I too understand this concept.

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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
If you are just pointing out the fact that Lucci did more than use peircing attacks, then I guess I agree with you, but otherwise my point still stands.
That was my intention, to show you that Lucci did hurt Luffy with attacks besides just piercing types (i.e. Shigan, Rankyaku). A fast powerful kick to the face, and a double fist to the abdomen area (Roku Ou Gun) causing both external and internal damage, are far different than the aforementioned piercing attacks. They are blunt physical hits. Hell, Garp has hurt Luffy really badly with his punches, so I ask you this again, why couldn't Moria do the same thing in his asgard form whose strength exceeded even that of Oz's? I guess it can be said that you would have to agree with me on this. I even went so far as to provide you with examples on this matter. My claims are completely substantiated in this case.

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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
But, whatever, just to add something to the discussion that we might actually be able to talk about , I consider the Shadow Asgard/Nightmare Luffy ability (adding shadows to living people) to be the real ability that Moria gained from his fruit (and the ability that Moria might have used back when fighting Kaidou), and the zombies are a bastardization of the real ability (Consequently, it is almost symbolic that Moria turned awat from his real powers, in order to use a bastardization of his strength). What is your opinion on the matter?
Oh, I definitely agree with you on this. Moria became really corrupt after his loss against Kaidou, for he went from a man who greatly cherished and valued human life to a man who violated the laws of the living world by reviving the dead so that he could have a crew that could never be expunged. He exploited the potential effects of his devil fruit to the point where he became severely twisted.

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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
Who is assuming things now? I told you the exact abilities that Moria used, and I stacked them up against the abilities Luffy had used up until that point in the story. You, and holypanl (sorry holypanl) cannot just decide that Moria could have other abilities. This isn't a situation like Smoker or Kizaru were the character did not have to use full force, and consequently may have not shown their full abilities, rather Moria did use full force (even if he was forced to for story purposes). If he did not use other abilities, then you cannot base a discussion on the possible existence of other abilities, otherwise you are simply making up abilities you wish for Moria/Kage Kage fruit to have. Again, the basic abilities that Moria has shown, versus the basic abilities that Luffy has shown, lean heavily toward Moria's defeat. The only ability that Moria had shown (besides his two power-ups) that could be dangerous to Luffy, was the ability to steal his shadow, and this is the ability that ultimately makes me say that Moria and Luffy are equal, rather than putting one over the other.
Doppleman, Brick Bats, and Kage Kakumei (Shadow Invasion, I believe?) are more than enough to make Luffy lose miserably. Doppleman cannot be destroyed by any means and Moria can swap positions with it at any time. Brick Bats can constantly swarm and bite (a piercing attack that works on Luffy ) the victim until Moria feels like reverting them back into doppleman. Lastly, Kage Kakumei allows doppleman to invade the shadow of any one. Moria could do this to Luffy's shadow and his body would be forced to comply with doppleman's movements, ultimately hindering Luffy's ability to move properly. Moria has plenty of tools at his disposal to win him this fight.

Anyways, I'm going to stop right here. It's obvious that I cannot convince you to change your views, and vice versa. Nonetheless, it was a good debate.
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Old 2009-04-26, 16:35   Link #267
james0246
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Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma View Post
That was my intention, to show you that Lucci did hurt Luffy with attacks besides just piercing types (i.e. Shigan, Rankyaku). A fast powerful kick to the face, and a double fist to the abdomen area (Roku Ou Gun) causing both external and internal damage, are far different than the aforementioned piercing attacks. They are blunt physical hits. Hell, Garp has hurt Luffy really badly with his punches, so I ask you this again, why couldn't Moria do the same thing in his asgard form whose strength exceeded even that of Oz's? I guess it can be said that you would have to agree with me on this. I even went so far as to provide you with examples on this matter. My claims are completely substantiated in this case.
Which hurts worse - a Slap to the face, or a Punch to the face? You can apply the same amount of force to both attacks, but a slap will always hurt less (though it will create a larger bruise) than a punch because the slap is only concentrated on hurting the exterior, whereas the punch is meant to hurt both. Moria, despite the strength of Shadow's Asgard, is ultimately just pressing Luffy to the ground (or with Shadow Box, crushing him to a small point), and, as we have seen multiple times in the series, Luffy has amazing defenses against being crushed (he almost nullifies any wide dispersal attack). He has had a mountain literally placed on top of his entire body, leaving only his head exposed, and he received no damage from such an "attack" (additionally the explosives used on him while he was under the mountain, did little real damage because the explosives only really affected the exterior of his body). By crushing a rubber body, the damge is spread evenly, and more importantly, it is spread to the area around him as well, so there is less specific harm. So, why would Moria's fists be any different?

Lucci and Garp can both deliver precise blows of concentrated force to one specific area on/in Luffy's body. They are consequently not crushing the entire body, or even that area, but instead almost literally forcing a specific area/organ to be seperated from the rest of the body. Consequently, a precise blow with full force to a specific area on the body will always be more harmful to Luffy than a blow merely meant to crush.
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Old 2009-04-26, 16:58   Link #268
holypanl
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
Which hurts worse - a Slap to the face, or a Punch to the face? You can apply the same amount of force to both attacks, but a slap will always hurt less (though it will create a larger bruise) than a punch because the slap is only concentrated on hurting the exterior, whereas the punch is meant to hurt both.
I guess you've probably never met a real G and got slapped before, so LOL, I'm going to testify to you, dude: when you slap a hater, he freezes up. I mean:

If you ever slapped a guy, you'd understand. A slap makes a guy actually freeze, real time, and like...mouth open, hands open wide, and they get like...stupefied.

A punch really doesn't have that utterly painful STINGING effect that a good, well aimed, put-him-in-his-place slap does. Just contributing, lol.

Anyway: I'm still all for seeing Moria do something surprising during the fight coming up. I really didn't like how Luffy beat him with the Nightmare Luffy thing.
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Old 2009-04-26, 18:00   Link #269
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Good chapter, it was hilarious how Ivan had zero patience for any of the other level sixers; "Silence! DEATH WINK!" We all had sort of figured that Jinbei would be aiding Luffy in some way, shape or form and now that part has come to fruition. No sign of Shiryuu but it is still early so there is a possibility that he could make an appearance in a chapter or two to come I found it funny how Ivan was so easily able to blackmail Croc into cooperating, I vonder vhat his little secret is, maybe he has a thing for okamas?
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Old 2009-04-26, 21:00   Link #270
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Good chapter, it was hilarious how Ivan had zero patience for any of the other level sixers; "Silence! DEATH WINK!" We all had sort of figured that Jinbei would be aiding Luffy in some way, shape or form and now that part has come to fruition. No sign of Shiryuu but it is still early so there is a possibility that he could make an appearance in a chapter or two to come I found it funny how Ivan was so easily able to blackmail Croc into cooperating, I vonder vhat his little secret is, maybe he has a thing for okamas?
I just had to laugh at that xD For some reason I kind of hope its true
Would be extremely hilarious

But its probably another reason because didn't Ivan said that he knew him since he was a rookie? Bahh, bad memory X.x Somewhere along those words though.
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Old 2009-04-27, 02:58   Link #271
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
And, as I just said, we do not have adequate knowledge of the actions that Kizaru can perform to make any judgment call.

Added to that, you can't simply compare the fight Ace had with Blackbeard, and the fight that Kizaru had with the Supernovas.They are two completely different battles with no characters connecting the two. So, there is no basis for comparison (and no, their "actions" are not a basis for comparison considering, as I already pointed out, we do not know what Kizaru can actually do or not).
I'm not, I don't know why you keep trying to put words in my mouth.

and LOL at your last line which is in the bold, if thats the case we might as well never compare characters. I have already proved my point, that Ace has shown powers on an Admirals level, you have yet to debunk it. The argument was not Ace being stronger then Yellow but Ace showing powers on the level of an admirals, which he did.

Quote:
That being said, as Keroko has already said, there is no way to claim that light and fire are equal to each other or even potentially equal to each other.
Alright Yall its time for One Piece 101. James, Keroko listen up!

They are both Logia's, there fight would end in a draw, for Ace and Yellow Monkey have no way of hurting each other. Lol let me dumb this down for two members, it would not be a draw for the fact that they are logias, but for the fact that there logias powers (both Ace and Yellow Monkey) have no advantage (natural or unique) against each others power.

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
If you're going to count the vices, I'm going to count the Shichibukai's second in commands. Vices are Vices for a reason, just like how second in commands of the Shichibukai are second in command for a reason.
No, again, the Seven Armed Seas, are equal to the MHQ. Thats all there is two it. its stated in the manga.
The Vice Admirals are counted for they are apart of the MHQ. The Seven Armed Seas 2nd in commands (If they have any) are not counted for they are not apart of the Seven Armed Seas.

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Problem is, Ace being of Admiral level is questionable to begin with.
Lol Explain?

Last edited by Master Mold; 2009-04-27 at 03:20.
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Old 2009-04-27, 03:30   Link #272
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Originally Posted by Master Mold View Post
I'm not, I don't know why you keep trying to put words in my mouth.

and LOL at your last line which is in the bold, if thats the case we might as well never compare characters. I have already proved my point, that Ace has shown powers on an Admirals level, you have yet to debunk it. The argument was not Ace being stronger then Yellow but Ace showing powers on the level of an admirals, which he did.
Considering that we are not certain that the powers Kizaru shown were actually his strongest, your argument is quite ridiculous. It could very well be that Kizaru wasn't even using a 1/3 of his total strength/abilities to battle the Supernova. So we have no real basis for comparison between Ace using full force and Kizaru using a questionable amount of force (to put it another way, if the abilities Kizaru had shown during his brief skirmish were his best abilities, then I would actually place Ace above Kizaru, but, since Kizaru was making light of the entire situation, it is fairly obvious that he was only goofing off (all the while showing abilities almost equal to Ace's best), and consequently to extrapolate greater abilities on top of what he showed would only indicate that he is stronger than Ace).

And yes, we should not be needlessly comparing characters that have not shown their full abilities. The fact of the matter is, we do not know all of Kizaru's abilities because he was never even close to a life or death situation, so he never was forced to use all of his abilities. You can compare Ace and Enel, Ace and Crocodile, Ace and Wapol, Ace and lucci, Ace and Moria, etc, because each of these hypothetical opponents had been froced to reveal their abilities during the course of their battles. But, you cannot compare characters that have only shown a fraction of their powers. I'm not sure what is so hard to understand about that...

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Originally Posted by Master Mold View Post
They are both Logia's, there fight would end in a draw, for Ace and Yellow Monkey have no way of hurting each other. Lol let me dumb this down for two members, it would not be a draw for the fact that they are logias, but for the fact that there logias powers (both Ace and Yellow Monkey) have no advantage (natural or unique) against each others power.
I have forgotten by now, but, didn't Smoker say that Crocodile was stronger than him?

That being said, who says that Light wouldn't defeat Fire? Just because neither has a weakness for the other doesn't mean that light, which is a far stronger real world force, couldn't defeat fire (smoke and fire nullifying each other makes some sense (twisted sense, but still some sense); Light and fire, though, have a greater connection than fire and light). Additionally, maybe Kizaru's light based attacks would simply be more powerful, and consequently he would be able to beat Ace through over-whelming force more than a specific weakness.

Last edited by james0246; 2009-04-27 at 03:51.
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Old 2009-04-27, 03:40   Link #273
Keroko
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can;t even tell there equal power really, all it shows us was that in One Piece smoke and fire nullify each other, and lets face it...Ace wasn;t serious at all, he was just giving Luffy a few minutes to get away
Ahh, good point. My first point still stands though, Smoker and Ace fighting to a draw does not prove Logia users will 'mostly' fight to a draw.

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Originally Posted by Kafriel View Post
On another note, Luffy had sent both Smoker and Ace through the wall of the restaurant with his "rocket" despite them both being logia users, how was that possible?
In addition to what others mentioned, this scene was also meant to be mostly comical, AKA 'don't examine this too closely.'
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Old 2009-04-27, 08:16   Link #274
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They were caught off guard. Logia users have to train temselves pretty high to always stay in elemental mode and as Kizaru showed when they are caught off guard they can be influenced by normal attack.

And Logia users changing into elemental shape has to train hard as it is not that simple according to Oda.
Kizaru caught off guard? Uhhh...try haki. He got caught off guard by Scratchman Apoo but he still couldn't kill him. Silvers Rayleigh used his haki to hit Kizaru.
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Old 2009-04-27, 10:00   Link #275
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
Considering that we are not certain that the powers Kizaru shown were actually his strongest, your argument is quite ridiculous. It could very well be that Kizaru wasn't even using a 1/3 of his total strength/abilities to battle the Supernova. So we have no real basis for comparison between Ace using full force and Kizaru using a questionable amount of force (to put it another way, if the abilities Kizaru had shown during his brief skirmish were his best abilities, then I would actually place Ace above Kizaru, but, since Kizaru was making light of the entire situation, it is fairly obvious that he was only goofing off (all the while showing abilities almost equal to Ace's best), and consequently to extrapolate greater abilities on top of what he showed would only indicate that he is stronger than Ace).
Well, that’s basically how Fighting Shonen goes, and Kizaru should not be an exception, While, I’m not agreeing totally with MM, but what you said here could be perfectly be applied to Ace, who knows it we have seen it full power or not.

But, I’ll say based on the amount of Hype there is for Admirals, and they are basically the strong arm of the Marine, is could be possible that he is indeed on a different level than Ace (while this could be wrong), we have also to consider as a factor the introduction of Haki, and of the character we have seen who use it and who not, (Both Kizaru and Ace could use it perfectly for all we know).

At the end, it is difficult to say for now what is wrong and what’s not given the brief appearance we have seen of one of the character.

One thing is for sure here, just because both are Logia users doesn’t mean both of then should be on the same level , this is fighting manga, and even if the author doesn’t put it in words, he has a rough estimate of every character power ranks.

Personally I think Ace is on the same level the Kizaru, but that just because I like Ace the most...
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Old 2009-04-27, 10:54   Link #276
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Kizaru's top 3 abilities were named after some japanese legend about Mirror,Sword and Jewel.
Yata no Kagami (Eight Span Mirror) allows him to reflect to any place.
Ama no Murakumo (天叢雲, lit. Gathering Clouds of Heaven) allows him to shape light into sword.
And yet there is something about Jewel, probably his strongest attack yet to come.
Since he used the 2 treasures as sword and mirror without altering anything, I guess that jewel attack can be something like reflecting light to many different angles as beams.

Typical Shonen routine.Reminded me of Itachi and his Sosaano thingy
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Old 2009-04-27, 11:24   Link #277
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Considering that we are not certain that the powers Kizaru shown were actually his strongest, your argument is quite ridiculous.
Werther they where his strongest or not, that still does not change the fact Ace has shown powers on the level of an Admirals. He could be low level or high, (I really don't care for its not my main point) Ace still still has shown his powers are on that level. The one with the ridiculous argument is you, my friend.

Quote:
It could very well be that Kizaru wasn't even using a 1/3 of his total strength/abilities to battle the Supernova.

So we have no real basis for comparison between Ace using full force and Kizaru using a questionable amount of force (to put it another way, if the abilities Kizaru had shown during his brief skirmish were his best abilities, then I would actually place Ace above Kizaru, but, since Kizaru was making light of the entire situation, it is fairly obvious that he was only goofing off (all the while showing abilities almost equal to Ace's best), and consequently to extrapolate greater abilities on top of what he showed would only indicate that he is stronger than Ace).
Yellow fought Rayleigh who kept him in check, you telling me he didn't try against the Dark King?

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I have forgotten by now, but, didn't Smoker say that Crocodile was stronger than him?
When?
Quote:
That being said, who says that Light wouldn't defeat Fire?

Just because neither has a weakness for the other doesn't mean that light, which is a far stronger real world force, couldn't defeat fire (smoke and fire nullifying each other makes some sense (twisted sense, but still some sense); Light and fire, though, have a greater connection than fire and light). Additionally, maybe Kizaru's light based attacks would simply be more powerful, and consequently he would be able to beat Ace through over-whelming force more than a specific weakness.
Again, Ace and Yellow have no way of getting around each other logias intangible abilities with each others powers, The fight ends in a draw.

Last edited by Master Mold; 2009-04-27 at 11:52. Reason: for the lulz
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Old 2009-04-27, 11:28   Link #278
Trax
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Originally Posted by cheese4u View Post
Kizaru caught off guard? Uhhh...try haki. He got caught off guard by Scratchman Apoo but he still couldn't kill him. Silvers Rayleigh used his haki to hit Kizaru.
I was thinking about what Apoo did to Kizaru as well, but I think in that case Kizaru was already in battlemode due to fighting the other supernovas, so eventhough he didn't expect that attack he already had his logia invulnerability active.

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Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
While, I’m not agreeing totally with MM, but what you said here could be perfectly be applied to Ace, who knows it we have seen it full power or not.
But Kizaru had no reason to go all out since he was just fighting supernovas (vs Rayleigh I assume he did, but when I think about it now we didn't see him try anything fancy), while it's very unlikely that Ace held back against Blackbeard. At any rate, it's not really possible to compare them properly at this point. There's no way to tell how Kizaru would compare to Blackbeard. Personally I don't think Ace is quite at admiral level yet. Kizaru vs Ace would probably end up in a draw though since they can't really touch eachother, unless one of them manages to exploit some sort of weakness, or has a haki advantage.
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Old 2009-04-27, 12:09   Link #279
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Werther they where his strongest or not, that still does not change the fact Ace has shown powers on the level of an Admirals. He could be low level or high, (I really don't care for its not my main point) Ace still still has shown his powers are on that level. The one with the ridiculous argument is you, my friend.
And, again, we do not even know the level of an Admiral. We really do not. The small display of Kizaru's or Aokiji's is not enough to compare them to anyone, not even really each other. In the end, your statement more or less amounts to Ace showing the same amount of "power" in the Blackbeard fight as Kizaru does when fighting against characters who are only a level up from grunts - such a statement only means that Ace's power is equal to a fraction of Kizaru's power (since that is all that has been shown).

To put it another way, let's say the amateur Heavy Weight champ wins his title match in the same time that a proffesional Heavy Weight Champ (let's say Mike Tyson) can win a prize fight (they additional have the same basic build, and same basic fighting style). Does that then mean that the Amateur Champ is equal to the Actual champ? Or, does it simply mean that comparing the two will get you no where considering that there are so many unknown variables, abilities, etc that the Proffesional didn't show in a Prize fight that they would undoubtedly use in a Title Fight? In the end, we cannot compare Ace and Kizaru (or even really Ace and Aokiji), and simply because their abilities might nullify each other does not mean that Ace si equal to Kizaru, it simply means that Kizaru would have to fight differently to defeat him.

Last edited by james0246; 2009-04-27 at 12:20.
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Old 2009-04-27, 12:25   Link #280
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And, again, we do not even know the level of an Admiral. We really do not.
We have seen powers of Admirals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Mold
Werther they where his strongest or not, that still does not change the fact Ace has shown powers on the level of an Admirals. He could be low level or high, (I really don't care for its not my main point) Ace still still has shown his powers are on that level. The one with the ridiculous argument is you, my friend.

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The small display of Kizaru's or Aokiji's is not enough to compare them to anyone, not even really each other. In the end, your statement more or less amounts to Ace showing the same amount of "power" in the Blackbeard fight as Kizaru does when fighting against characters who are only a level up from grunts - such a statement only means that Ace's power is equal to a fraction of Kizaru's power (since that is all that has been shown).
No, what Yellow did to the Novas does not top, what Ace has shown.

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In the end, we cannot compare Ace and Kizaru (or even really Ace and Aokiji), and simply because their abilities might nullify each other does not mean that Ace si equal to Kizaru, it simply means that Kizaru would have to fight differently to defeat him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Mold
Again, Ace and Yellow have no way of getting around each other logias intangible abilities with each others powers, The fight ends in a draw.
A draw/ tie is between equals.
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