AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Current Series > One Piece

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2009-04-23, 16:39   Link #101
james0246
Senior Member
*Moderator
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: East Cupcake
Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Mold View Post
Whats in the bold.
Since I am going to assume you mean you disagree with all 4 popints, I will address them individually.

1.) One Piece is aimed at 10-14 year old boys: The core demographic of Shounen Jump is young boys (Shounen is a term used to desribe a 10-16 year old boy). I really do not understand why you would have a problem with this statement. The 10-14 year old audeince makes up over 60% of the total buyers/viewers of Shounen Jump, so, of course, Oda and the other write their stories for that audeince (the trick is to write a story that a 10-14 year old child can get into, but there is enough story to also retain their viewership for however long the story may last(this si reflected more in collected works, rather than bound magazines). If you would prefer I can say instead that One Piece is a Shounen series, not a Seinen series, and consequently it characters and locations reflect such a difference.

2.) Violence can be found in Impel Down: Considering the number of prisoners killed so far, and the excessive force and cruel contraptions and Level themes used by all military personal, how can anyone claim that Impel Down is not violent?

3.) There is fear to be found in Impel Down: This is, I will admit, far more debatable. The only rejoinder I really have, is that a 10-14 year old boy may be scared of things that us older "children" are not scared of.

4.) There si chaos in Impel Down: Considering that Luffy si staging a break-out/resuce, and has been running through the various levels in search of Ace, I would say that chaos is found quite easily. But, I will admit that chaos is less active than one would think. So, I will concede the point.
james0246 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-04-23, 17:07   Link #102
Fipskuul
τηε πιγητ ωατςη
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: τη λαnδ of веагз αnδ дг
I am actually more interested in the demographic structure of the people buying the volumes and watching the anime. Could not find one. But, since this does not talk for the magazine itself, you cannot project those results accurately on the magazine audience. For those results, you need to actually make a poll among the shounen jump readers (the ones who pay for it), and ask them to list their interests in order. Then grouping those within the age group, you can get an idea what the target audience is.

Still, I believe, the target audience of One Piece should be the high end of the teenage group, not the low. This is like putting it side by side with Naruto, and this would be a slap in the face for the loyal one piece followers (considering the age group of the people following Naruto, and the fillers in the first part, that would not be too difficult to prove). For the story to be a selling point, it doesn't have to target the youngest. They can get into the story after they develop in mind.
__________________
Fipskuul is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-04-23, 17:12   Link #103
Master Mold
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: LA CA
Cool

Quote:
Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
Since I am going to assume you mean you disagree with all 4 popints, I will address them individually.
Next time I will make sure to spoon feed you on what I disagree with.

Quote:
1.) One Piece is aimed at 10-14 year old boys: The core demographic of Shounen Jump is young boys (Shounen is a term used to desribe a 10-16 year old boy). I really do not understand why you would have a problem with this statement. If you would prefer I can say instead that One Piece is a Shounen series, not a Seinen series, and consequently it characters and locations reflect such a difference.
I don't have a problem with it, I do have a problem with it being used as an excuse to why Oda failed on living up to the hype, with ID at this point. Not to mention Oda knows his audience who started reading One Piece are now like in there 20's.

Quote:
2.) Violence can be found in Impel Down: Considering the number of prisoners killed so far, and the excessive force and cruel contraptions and Level themes used by all military personal, how can anyone claim that Impel Down is not violent?
I didn't say ID was not violent, and you didn't just claim it was violent either, you said it had "extreme violence" which it didn't.

Quote:
3.) There is fear to be found in Impel Down: This is, I will admit, far more debatable. The only rejoinder I really have, is that a 10-14 year old boy may be scared of things that us older "children" are not scared of.
There is no fear to be had in ID, that lived up to its hype. (I'm hoping those named prisoners can salvage it.) Well I don't know about you, but I'm from the USA, and I can tell you that, this ID right here won't scare no 10 - 14 year old. Oda in the past has had a better time putting fear into his readers in past arcs. Heck I can even throw Kishi in the mix.

Quote:
4.) There si chaos in Impel Down: Considering that Luffy si staging a break-out/resuce, and has been running through the various levels in search of Ace, I would say that chaos is found quite easily. But, I will admit that chaos is less active than one would think. So, I will concede the point.
Good.

In short Impel down has been mostly bad laughs and giggles, lacking a serious mood, and heavy cruelty, Fear, chaos, and carnage etc etc, This arc is softer then mash mellows.

Last edited by Master Mold; 2009-04-23 at 17:26.
Master Mold is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-04-23, 18:01   Link #104
Wolcik
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Poland
Age: 28
Send a message via MSN to Wolcik
Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Mold View Post
(...)Well I don't know about you, but I'm from the USA,(...)
Case closed. You lose XD


But srsly:
From what I heard Japanese children grow up in diffrent way. Those are very creazy people we're talking about. People that have 10 years old anime girls in size of 10m above their railway.
It's not important who read this, the important this is who buys it.

Some people will see guy from Jasson cut someone's face off and put in on his own, and won't be afraid or intimitated. Kids get nightmares from such stuff, no mater what. Maybe showing person being boiled alive and hear about it makes a diffrence for you, but I'd say it's as good as it can get. Oda wants to scare, not scare off.
You might just don't have enough imagination because of watching too many movies. If everything has to be shown to you, sooner or later you won't be shocked unless you see it happen. There are people frozen, starved, spiked, eaten and boiled to death - I'd say that scary if you put yourself into their shoes.


As far as Iva being in ID after hearing that he's revolutionist, some might think that he got there on purpose. So he could build inside it a safe bay and build army (+have fun).


Bonta Kun I never read Air Gear. Is it good? What place are you talking about?
If it's about some kids with rollershoes then I'm out. This kind of people are... well, I just don't but to this or skaters.
__________________
Wolcik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-04-23, 18:13   Link #105
james0246
Senior Member
*Moderator
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: East Cupcake
Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Mold View Post
Next time I will make sure to spoon feed you on what I disagree with.
No, you do not need to spoon feed me anything, but it might help if you actually explain your stances (as you did here) instead of simply saying "No". Otherwise, no one will understand what you are talking about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Mold View Post
I don't have a problem with it, I do have a problem with it being used as an excuse to why Oda failed on living up to the hype, with ID at this point. Not to mention Oda knows his audience who started reading One Piece are now like in there 20's.
And, as I said, Shounen Jump is targeted toward 10-14 year old boys. So, of course, the story is written toward that audience. Retention rates for series are only really found in bound collections for series, not in the magazines themselves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Mold View Post
I didn't say ID was not violent, and you didn't just claim it was violent either, you said it had "extreme violence" which it didn't.
Actually, I switched to using excessive force, but the point still stands. Level 1 - people brutally tortured and dying while they are slowly bled to death on Glass grass. Level 2 - monsters patrol the coridors and the inmates so fear them that they refuse to even escape from their prison cells else they be caught. Level 3 - prisoners die from extreme dehydration. Level 4 - prisoners are tossed into a lake of fire if they cannot complete their tasks, and even if they do, they can die from dehydration and exhaustion. Level 5 - people commonly die from hypothermia, and many prisoners have such extreme frostbite that their extremities are falling off even as they speak.

So? Where in all of this is the lack of extreme violence (especially for a younger audience)? Or, do you think the constant suffering we have seen is simply a joke because the warden and military officiers are drawn funny?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Mold View Post
There is no fear to be had in ID, that lived up to its hype. (I'm hoping those named prisoners can salvage it.) Well I don't know about you, but I'm from the USA, and I can tell you that, this ID right here won't scare no 10 - 14 year old. Oda in the past has had a better time putting fear into his readers in past arcs. Heck I can even throw Kishi in the mix.
Really? Television shows in America like 24 (or Prison Break ), are rated TV-14V, which means that children under the age of 14 may either be scared by the siuations in the show (the violence), or be influenced in some other negative fashion.

To put it another way, if you were in the One Piece universe, and you were not the protagonist or one of the 'elite', would you want to go to Impel Down? Personally, I have doubts that I would survive a prison in the real world, let alone even Level 1 of Impel Down.

edit: Wolick had a good line, Oda wants to scare his audience, not scare them away from the series.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Mold View Post
In short Impel down has been mostly bad laughs and giggles, lacking a serious mood, and heavy cruelty, Fear, chaos, and carnage etc etc, This arc is softer then mash mellows.
I will give you the same response I gave earlier: Did you really expect Impel Down to be Butcher Bay, Oswald State Maximum Correctional Facility, the prison were Griffith was being held, or some other extreme fictional prison? Because if you did, I can't help but think that you over-hyped Impel Down.

Last edited by james0246; 2009-04-23 at 18:23.
james0246 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-04-23, 18:21   Link #106
andy
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma View Post
Then why would Oda have Elder Nyon even say such a thing in the first place? It has to mean something, and I certainly believe that what she says is credible since she is very knowledgeable about the world's affairs and very wise due to her age and experience. She clearly understands the grand scale/magnitude of this war, whereas Luffy obviously doesn't.



I've already acknowledged that Luffy has a very powerful team. But, this has nothing to do with Luffy himself getting involved in the war. As of now, Luffy in his current state is clearly not strong enough to make a difference. I don't think I need to explain why this is the case.

The same reason why he let old mermaid women talk about how now one shold try to get robin back to hype it up. Also to show when luffy does do it it some that is was something great .

your talking about luffy as by him self . But i am talking about what luffy aready has, a powerfully team that can help . Luffy by his self might not able to do much but look what the action of luffy has cause so far, who knows what else might happen because of what he does.
andy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-04-23, 18:29   Link #107
Wolcik
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Poland
Age: 28
Send a message via MSN to Wolcik
james0246 thanks XD I might not be able to use big words all the time, but I'm still trying to make my point clear.
Did you know you wrote "Glass glass"?

The TV has tendency to don't let children hear the 'F' world that stands for Fuck, Fucking or Fucked XD There is a limit to what children should and should not see.
There is a point in person life when he forgets what was it to be a child, and is yet to experiance having a child - in this moment you don't get why they don't show gore or sex on Sazame Street. Woman tend to skip that peroid of time since most of them have motherly insticts, but there are exceptions... yes, they are usually stupid.


EDIT- Luffy would still (and might) do something in this war. He is a supernova after all, and while a Admiral might take him down - Admirals might be too busy for that. Luffy took down 5 thousand soldiers by himself in Enies Lobby and he is able to destroy the biggest battleship.
They took Moria with them, but they also gather all manpower they have. All cannon fodder nobodies are welcome at the party, probably even those that will faith from the share amount of haki that anybody strong can produce.
__________________
Wolcik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-04-23, 18:47   Link #108
syler321
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
luffy is a supernova yes but,dont forget he is no match for an admiral right now,when he faced Aokiji awhile back Aokiji kicked his ass with out even trying to much,but he let them go bcos of robin and the promised that he gave to her giant freind way back....

now im sure if rayligh woudnt have stoped kizaru at the shanbody park arc kizaru would have kicked luffy ass also probably,dont forget maggelan just kicked luffy and he is not much to an admiral....

so sure luffy is very strong but dont forget what rayligh also told him when they met,there are much stronger ppl in the world beside him and the supernovas,they r still just rookies...
syler321 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-04-23, 18:53   Link #109
Master Mold
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: LA CA
Quote:
Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
No, you do nto need to spoon feed me anything, but it might help if you actually explain your stances instead of simply saying "No". Otherwise, no one will understand what you are talking about.
Wow.............Spoon feed was not to be taken lit.

Quote:
And, as I said, Shounen Jump is targeted toward 10-14 year old boys. So, of course, the story is written toward that audience. Retention rates for series are only really found in bound collections for series, not in the magazines themselves.
Still its not an excuse for why your boy Oda dropped the ball. atp.

Quote:
Actually, I switched to using excessive force, but the point still stands.
There was no extreme violence, just a bit of violence.

Quote:
Level 1 - people brutally tortured and dying while they are slowly bled to death on Glass grass.Level 2 - monsters patrol the coridors and the inmates so fear them that they refuse to even escape from their prison cells else they be caught. Level 3 - prisoners die from extreme dehydration. Level 4 - prisoners are tossed into a lake of fire if they cannot complete their tasks, and even if they do, they can die from dehydration and exhaustion. Level 5 - people commonly die from hypothermia, and many prisoners have such extreme frostbite that their extremities are falling off even as they speak.
and there the bit of violence I was talking about. Weak, compared to what I see in other Shounen, and Luffy and buggy got past with flying colors, Again all talk no walk.

Quote:
So? Where in all of this is the lack of extreme violence (especially for a younger audience)? Or, do you think the constant suffering we have seen is simply a joke because the warden and military officers are drawn funny?
It ain't extreme violence, its just violence, main character got past it with no problem at all, hell didn't even think on it. I love how you contiue to harp the younger audience excuse, again this ain't nothing compared to what Ive seen in other Shounen. I get more extreme violence in a Guyver chapter, the this whole arc, but I guess oda is an exception, with some of you people.

Quote:
Really? Television shows in America like 24 (or Prison Break ), are rated TV-14V, which means that children under the age of 14 may either be scared by the siuations in the show (the violence), or be influenced in some other negative fashion.
LOL!still don't chance the fact Impel Down won't scare any kids, with Luffy champing tho the levels.

and if you think, kids over here follow the TV rating rules.....lol!

Quote:
To put it another way, if you were in the One Piece universe, and you were not the protagonist or one of the 'elite' would you want to go to Impel Down?
Thats not the point, point is Oda failed at this point. to keep the hype, that what happens when you build up sh8t to be top, and then when it comes down to it, it ani't sh8t. If Oda drops the ball with this War, and those so called top characters aren't top flight sh8t like he has been hyping for the past years.......lol at One Piece.

Quote:
I will give you the same response I gave earlier: Did you really expect Impel Down to be Butcher Bay, Oswald State Maximum Correctional Facility, or some other extreme fictional prison?
No, but reading other Shounen, I expect Oda to be able to deliver, since he was able to with some of his other arcs. I do expect sh8t to live up to its hype when hyped!

Like I said before, this arc is softer then roasted marshmallows. atp
Master Mold is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-04-23, 19:00   Link #110
Otani-kun
Beta Tester
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Netherlands
Age: 25
Send a message via MSN to Otani-kun
I wonder if some people can actually still enjoy what they're being given.

Probably not if I look at the person above me, you're expecting way too much.
Otani-kun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-04-23, 19:02   Link #111
Master Mold
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: LA CA
I see Oda is an exception, around here.

If I was saying this about Kubo or kishi, things would be different.
Master Mold is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-04-23, 19:02   Link #112
syler321
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
back to topic anyone?
syler321 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-04-23, 19:08   Link #113
Perona
Member
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
For some reason, I think this talk so far is pretty pointless. Everyone has their opinion and they can state it.

I agree with James that OP is aimed for young people, but older people also read this and its not Oda's fault that your not getting what you expect because he is writing his story for what it is aimed for.

What I think, since I'm in this age group, I think this arc is going nicely and its not very scary but it's still kind of scary if you actually put yourself in the story doing what Luffy's doing.

Master Mold , dude your expecting too much. Each story is different and not all has to be the same.

We should go back on Topic, shall we please?
__________________
Made by Sai-chan!
Click sig to view my DeviantArt!
A good friend will bail you out of jail. Your best friend will sit down next to and say "Damn, we fucked up." Indeed.
Perona is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-04-23, 19:23   Link #114
Master Mold
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: LA CA
Thumbs down

Quote:
Originally Posted by Perona View Post
Master Mold , dude your expecting too much. Each story is different and not all has to be the same.
I am not, again other Shounen where able to deliver what they have hyped, other Shounen have given me more violence in a chapter then what ID has atp. Why is Oda so special, to the point he gets a pass? when others don't.

On topic, I hope next chapter gets the introductions with the top prisoners over with, and I guess Shiryuu and the other top prisoners will make an appearance next chapter, and Shiryuu being on level six and Megallean moving on up, leaves me to think he will be beaten before Megallean.
Master Mold is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-04-23, 19:32   Link #115
UserName
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by james0246
And, as I said, Shounen Jump is targeted toward 10-14 year old boys. So, of course, the story is written toward that audience. Retention rates for series are only really found in bound collections for series, not in the magazines themselves.
12-14 is the largest group but likely more than a quarter of its readership is older. Aside from that, who the manga is written for is ultimately decided by the mangaka (and editor). The magazine would of course be a very heavy influence on this, but Oda himself has commented specifically on the matter, saying that he writes it for adults as much as children.

I persoanlly don't find Impel Down a dissapointment. In some ways it's better than I expected, the only issue I have with it is Luffy-related.
UserName is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-04-23, 20:06   Link #116
james0246
Senior Member
*Moderator
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: East Cupcake
Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Mold View Post
It ain't extreme violence, its just violence, main character got past it with no problem at all, hell didn't even think on it. I love how you contiue to harp the younger audience excuse, again this ain't nothing compared to what Ive seen in other Shounen. I get more extreme violence in a Guyver chapter, the this whole arc, but I guess oda is an exception, with some of you people.
First of all, Guyver was in Shounen Ace, a magazine aimed at 20+ year old men. So, there is an extreme difference between Shounen Jump (whose major audience is 10-14 year old boys) and Shounen Ace (whose major audience is 20+, in fact I think the magazine had a parental warning label). (before you ask, the Shounen title assigned to these magazines does not always mean that the target audience is in fact young boys/men.)

That being said, regular violence is when Nami's mother was ruthlessly killed, or when Luffy was stabbed by Crocodile. Excessive violence is when complicated torture devices reddened by the blood of its victims is introduced as a simple Level 1 contraption.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Mold View Post
Thats not the point, point is Oda failed at this point. to keep the hype, that what happens when you build up sh8t to be top, and then when it comes down to it, it ani't sh8t. If Oda drops the ball with this War, and those so called top characters aren't top flight sh8t like he has been hyping for the past years.......lol at One Piece.
And, once again, maybe you just personally over-hyped the situation. Obviously, I am not trying to speak for you, but for me, Impel Down is almost exactly as I imagined the place to be (except for the Okama brigade, I was not expecting them at all). Extreme forms of torture. Beaten down prisoners. Strong military officials (Warden, etc). Et cetera et cetera.
james0246 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-04-23, 20:38   Link #117
Master Mold
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: LA CA
Quote:
Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
First of all, Guyver was in Shounen Ace, a magazine aimed at 20+ year old men. So, there is an extreme difference between Shounen Jump (whose major audience is 10-14 year old boys) and Shounen Ace (whose major audience is 20+, in fact I think the magazine had a parental warning label). (before you ask, the Shounen title assigned to these magazines does not always mean that the target audience is in fact young boys/men.)
Oh, it is my mistake. Still tho Kubo and Kishi still bring it.

Quote:
And, once again, maybe you just personally over-hyped the situation. Obviously, I am not trying to speak for you, but for me, Impel Down is almost exactly as I imagined the place to be (except for the Okama brigade, I was not expecting them at all). Extreme forms of torture. Beaten down prisoners. Strong military officials (Warden, etc). Et cetera et cetera.
Naw Oda gone and talk the talk, and failed to walk the walk, I expected this to be a serious arc, loads of serious actions, chaos, carnage and hardships all for Luffy. I still hoping I can get it, with the likes of Shiryuu and the other level six prisoners. All in all, I expected this to be a good One Piece arc, one I can check out from the start to finish but it pretty much sucks so far.
Master Mold is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-04-23, 20:49   Link #118
james0246
Senior Member
*Moderator
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: East Cupcake
^When has One Piece ever had a strictly serious arc? Enies Lobby was just as "unserious" as Impel Down (the pinacle house of justice was effortlessly destroyed by Luffy and his gang), etc.
james0246 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-04-23, 21:08   Link #119
Rurik
Golden
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: 9th Temple
Age: 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Mold View Post
Oh, it is my mistake. Still tho Kubo and Kishi still bring it.
I just had to LOL really hard at that comment.

Oda has been the most consistent of these big 3 Manga writers, where, Kishi keeps it real with the death (Not a single human, unless is a flashback, has died in Bleach or OP) but Kishi main problems is the consistency in his writings and failure to deliver in some parts.

Oda keeps in checks every arc thanks to a good balance of light humor and action, One Piece has its share of graphic violence but it is the lightest of the 3.

While Bleach...ermm, Bleach is a series that seems to be in traveling without moving, I don't know how its going right now, but ever since SS arc, Kubo has used the same exact formula to HM arc, making the majority of fights pointless and in some cases anti-climatic (I still don't get how nobody has died using swords as main weapons)..yo do got to give him credit for his females designs.


The only thing I don't get here, is what is it that you are looking for in doing this debate? I mean, you come into an OP forum bashing Oda's work, and do you expect for people to agree with you or change their point of view about what they like? seems to me you are just trolling around here....

You defended yourself from Figs about the YF comparison, but you are not helping yourself at all.

...............

Back on the chapter, I guess a secret from Ivankov must be related to Coco's rookie years, I still insist it could be something funny...
__________________
"when you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." -
Rurik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-04-23, 21:16   Link #120
Blackbeard D. Kuma
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by andy View Post
The same reason why he let old mermaid women talk about how now one shold try to get robin back to hype it up. Also to show when luffy does do it it some that is was something great .
Rescuing Robin doesn't even compare to trying to save Ace. The World Government's custody over him is causing all three world powers and possibly Dragon's forces to collide in a war. The implications here are obviously a lot more bigger and grand than the Enies Lobby incident. The outcome of this war is going to change the whole world within the One Piece universe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by andy View Post
your talking about luffy as by him self . But i am talking about what luffy aready has, a powerfully team that can help . Luffy by his self might not able to do much but look what the action of luffy has cause so far, who knows what else might happen because of what he does.
First of all, this is even assuming that Luffy does get involved in the war. But for argument's sake, let's assume he does. Do you really expect his allies to able to watch his back/protect him at all times in case he gets into big trouble in a battle? Luffy himself couldn't even take on a Pacifista, for he needed his whole crew to put it out of commission. Even then, the whole crew was completely exhausted by the end of that altercation.

With that being said, what can he possibly do in the face of marine admirals, vice admirals, and 5 warlords, all of whom are far more powerful than a mere pacifista whom he could not defeat by himself? These are overwhelming odds of adversity that he would be getting himself into, should he interfere. To put it simply, Luffy is far too weak at the moment since he would get destroyed by any one of the aforementioned opponents. They are all way out of his league.
__________________
A new age of piracy is at hand, and emperor Blackbeard is at the helm of it.
Blackbeard D. Kuma is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:35.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.