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Old 2009-04-23, 02:29   Link #61
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The question is who threw the exploding tag that killed Chibi?
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Old 2009-04-23, 07:49   Link #62
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
Actually, going back over 403, it seems that Sasuke did recall Itachi's tears, but he always thought it was his imagination. So, actually, Sasuke did not suppress any memories, he simply thought that he dreamed the last encounter.
I mentioned this once or twice but actually I think Sasuke even refered to this event during the very first volume in chapter 7. What he was talking about way back then didn't make much sense but in retrospective it becomes quite obvious.

Anyway I don't see any reason to suppose Nagato suppressed his memory. They were hungry kids alone in a warzone, Yahiko came to ask the Sannin for food and Jiraiya decided to stay to help them. What else was Nagato supposed to do? He probably didn't feel much about Jiraiya at first, it happened over the 3 years they passed together.
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Old 2009-04-23, 09:21   Link #63
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there seems to be much build up of suspense for nagato's 2nd source of pain. I hope it's something a lot crazier than his close friend yahiko dying.

Im hoping its something really really morbid so that Im convinced why nagato decided to become this peaceful God he speaks of. I really dont mind a long nagato arc so as long as it involves brutal killings and maybe a peak into pain vs hanzo, that would be badass.
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Old 2009-04-23, 09:57   Link #64
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Originally Posted by Fipskuul View Post
I was referring to the part with Konoha (see the post I was quoting, and the Jiraiya connection). You seem to be forgetting that Sasuke pushed back the memories related to his brother's tears on the night the Uchiha got massacred. I don't think Sasuke was a monster, do you? And you are also forgetting that the more time Sasuke spent with Naruto, the more he strayed from his revenge path. That doesn't mean he actually forgot those, but his positive feelings started to suppress them.

And in Nagato's case, the pain related to his family's death might have a less impact compared to what Sasuke felt (losing your family during war conditions-not saying Konoha was innocent- vs. losing your family and clan in the hands of your brother whom you had admired all your life in a rather peaceful environment). Also, unlike Sasuke, who developed a goal of becoming an avenger, Nagato, may not have developed such goals at the times. And for him finding a place he can consider a new home might be sufficient for him to make a new beginning. Enough to not keep those memories as if they are written on his hand.

Of course, this is my opinion. You are free to not share them. (and, even though it was not my point, psychologically, a human is capable of shrugging off those memories, and that never makes them a monster. just like kids affected by the Stockholm syndrome. those only make them human, as created by the god.)
Uhm, lol? Sasuke never strayed away from his revenge path when he was with Naruto. The scene where Sasuke communicates with Naruto's demon fox contradicts your logic. Every time his brother's name was communicated towards him, you could see this sudden burst of hatred inside him. Sasuke was always bent on killing his brother and avenging his clan, but now we see that he has a different goal in mind. Sasuke didn't not repress any feelings of revenge, he repressed socializing with other people that would get in his way.
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Old 2009-04-23, 10:47   Link #65
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Actually Fipskuul is right on this one, that's one of the main reason Sasuke left in the first place.
Both Orochimaru and later Sasuke himself confirmed that Naruto's influence was "softening" him. It doesn't mean he suddenly didn't want to avenge his clan but it was slowly stopping to be the absolute obsessive goal above everything like it used to be (and still is nowaday).
Sasuke decided he couldn't let go like that and thus couldn't stay in Konoha.
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Old 2009-04-23, 15:09   Link #66
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
Why is it not possible? Because there has never been a hint to say that Nagato had forgotten anything nor is there any evidence to suggest that Nagato has ever forgotten anything. Simply because Nagato never told Jiraiya (during Jiraiya's flashback, btw) that Konoha-nin had killed his parents, does not mean that he had somehow forgotten their deaths. It simply means that their relationship was more complicated than initial thought, and Nagato will now have to explain why he teamed up with Jiraiya.
If the memories skip that part quickly we may not find out that. And, just like you said, there is no mention of anything, whether he was still recalling those parts or whether he would have to force himself to bring those memories back. That is why my discussion is purely based on possibilities. And I am trying to provide explanations to try to support those possibilities, to not make them look like Astayanax's theories.

Quote:
Actually, going back over 403, it seems that Sasuke did recall Itachi's tears, but he always thought it was his imagination. So, actually, Sasuke did not suppress any memories, he simply thought that he dreamed the last encounter.
So, at the end, he simply ignored those parts willingfully or unwillingfully. But, learning more about his past, he finally solved what it really is, to make it become an important memory. But, until that time, it was mostly a suppressed one, a memory that was doing diving exercises in the back of his head, while Sasuke was looking at the surface.

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There has been absolutely no sign that Nagato has ever suppressed his memories. In his story that he is telling to Naruto, he goes from his parents being killed by Konoha-nin, to killing the same Konoha-nin, to burying his parents the next day. There is no info about suppressing any memories, nor does Nagato treat the situation as anything but a memorable traumatic event.
Let's do a brief time-skip and go back to Jiraiya's memories for a short moment. Let's see what those say. Jiraiya was thinking of a similar scene when Nagato did kill those ninjas to save Yahiko. At that time he said in short, I lost myself, etc. I think the trauma that he experienced the first time when his parents were killed should be much more powerful compared to that time, powerful enough to trap some parts within the hidden blocks, that will be opened later on, when the time comes.

Quote:
He then explains that he hooked up with several other orphans. Never once does Nagato mention that he stopped hating Konoha-nin, or that he had forgotten his parentís deaths by the hands of Konoha-nin, or anything along those lines.
Now, if we walk along those lines, we will see a guiding light shining as brightly as possible and pointing towards the side that says, I was in shock and could not remember some of them until it came to me that I am god...

Quote:
You have argued that Nagato somehow magically simply got over his parent's death (due to friendship...I think) or had forgotten them somehow, but the last chapter (as well as previous ones) all indicate, if not outright explain (see chapter 444) that Nagato has never gotten over his parent's murder. Additionally, there has never been any evidence that Nagato has ever suppressed or repressed his emotions concerning his parent's death.
Again, got over is not the exact words to simplify the content of my words. Not remembering all the details at the moment does not mean he got over. It was simply pushed back to the deep at the level that the moments he spent with his friends made him lock some parts of those memories within the hidden rooms.
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Old 2009-04-23, 15:45   Link #67
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Originally Posted by Fipskuul View Post
If the memories skip that part quickly we may not find out that. And, just like you said, there is no mention of anything, whether he was still recalling those parts or whether he would have to force himself to bring those memories back. That is why my discussion is purely based on possibilities. And I am trying to provide explanations to try to support those possibilities, to not make them look like Astayanax's theories.
You are trying to provide explanations to possibilities that have not even been hinted at. Nothing has ever been implied explicitly or implicitly that Nagato has ever supressed/repressed/forgotten/gotten over any memories or trauma, in fact the exact opposite is true, and Nagato so far has explained that he remembers everything and has used those memories to create his God Persona. So, you are literally trying to prove a negative; something that has no data, no information, is conjecture based on nothing, and when you get right down to it, is ultimately unneeded. Instead of simply saying that Nagato learned to admire Jiraiya, and consequently did not blame him for his parent's death (which would be a normal assumption based on the currently known data), you instead create a fantasy siuation in which Nagato for inexplicable reasons forgets his parent's murder(er), and because of this he is able to work with Jiraiya.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fipskuul View Post
So, at the end, he simply ignored those parts willingfully or unwillingfully. But, learning more about his past, he finally solved what it really is, to make it become an important memory. But, until that time, it was mostly a suppressed one, a memory that was doing diving exercises in the back of his head, while Sasuke was looking at the surface.
Did Sasuke ignore the memory? Yes, that makes sense. Did he forgot the memory? No, of course not. He would not have been able to remember it for so long if he did not in fact consciously cling to the memory for some reason. Why? I do not know. But, the fact that he can remember what he assumed to be a dream 7-8 years after the fact, means that he has never actually forgotten the memory, he simply discredited at the time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fipskuul View Post
Now, if we walk along those lines, we will see a guiding light shining as brightly as possible and pointing towards the side that says, I was in shock and could not remember some of them until it came to me that I am god...
...I...uhm ...are you calling yourself God ? Is this a quote of some kind...I am at a loss as to what you are trying to say here...

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Originally Posted by Fipskuul View Post
Again, got over is not the exact words to simplify the content of my words. Not remembering all the details at the moment does not mean he got over. It was simply pushed back to the deep at the level that the moments he spent with his friends made him lock some parts of those memories within the hidden rooms.
And, once again, there is no evidence to support such a claim. You pointed out, when I falsely atributed reasons to why Sasuke possibly repressed Itachi's tears, that no such information had been provided. Well, I guess you could call this post a similar hand-out...
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Old 2009-04-23, 16:15   Link #68
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
...I...uhm ...are you calling yourself God ? Is this a quote of some kind...I am at a loss as to what you are trying to say here...
Anyways, I don't really have time to take this discussion further. But, to answer your question, it was words supposedly coming out of Nagato's mouth. He is the one calling himself a/the god, not me.
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Old 2009-04-23, 16:22   Link #69
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Originally Posted by Fipskuul View Post
Anyways, I don't really have time to take this discussion further. But, to answer your question, it was words supposedly coming out of Nagato's mouth. He is the one calling himself a/the god, not me.
Oh, you were trying to speak as Nagato/Pain. Okay, I did not get that, but fair enough.
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Old 2009-04-23, 17:34   Link #70
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Actually Fipskuul is right on this one, that's one of the main reason Sasuke left in the first place.
Both Orochimaru and later Sasuke himself confirmed that Naruto's influence was "softening" him. It doesn't mean he suddenly didn't want to avenge his clan but it was slowly stopping to be the absolute obsessive goal above everything like it used to be (and still is nowaday).
Sasuke decided he couldn't let go like that and thus couldn't stay in Konoha.
I don't necessarily think it was influence from Naruto. But jealousy...remember that scene where the fight on the roof and Kakashi had to stop them? Sasuke was so impressed with his chidori until he found out that Naruto's rasengan would have literally blowed him away. (The water storage was literally bursted open on the other side). You can see his face convulse into a form of pure fright, then jealousy afterwards. Orochimaru just pushed Sasuke, he did not confirm that Naruto was softening Sasuke. What Orochimaru represented was temptation for Sasuke's goal. At first, he was angered by his words, and then gave him the option of abandoning the village for more power, enough to kill his brother Itachi, or staying at the village training by himself working towards his goal. I honestly don't remember where he didn't slowly become obsessive. When Itachi made an appearance and was about to supposively take the 9-tails (Naruto), Sasuke literally freaked out, ran to the spot, and tried to fight with Itachi almost instantaneously as if it were some killing instinct. He was so angered at him, that he just ran forward with a chidori and literally got stomped on. That's when Sasuke realized, "Oh my power is too weak now, maybe that Orichimaru guy was right."
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Old 2009-04-23, 18:06   Link #71
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I don't necessarily think it was influence from Naruto. But jealousy...remember that scene where the fight on the roof and Kakashi had to stop them? Sasuke was so impressed with his chidori until he found out that Naruto's rasengan would have literally blowed him away. (The water storage was literally bursted open on the other side). You can see his face convulse into a form of pure fright, then jealousy afterwards. Orochimaru just pushed Sasuke, he did not confirm that Naruto was softening Sasuke. What Orochimaru represented was temptation for Sasuke's goal. At first, he was angered by his words, and then gave him the option of abandoning the village for more power, enough to kill his brother Itachi, or staying at the village training by himself working towards his goal. I honestly don't remember where he didn't slowly become obsessive. When Itachi made an appearance and was about to supposively take the 9-tails (Naruto), Sasuke literally freaked out, ran to the spot, and tried to fight with Itachi almost instantaneously as if it were some killing instinct. He was so angered at him, that he just ran forward with a chidori and literally got stomped on. That's when Sasuke realized, "Oh my power is too weak now, maybe that Orichimaru guy was right."

Actually it was his meeting with Itachi & the roof incident that confirmed for sasuke that he wasn't pursing his goal with the same determination as before.. not only was he still miles behind Itachi, but even his rival had progressed further than he had...he was becoming comfortable with his surrounding's and as he then admitted was turning him soft.. It was more an acceptance that his dream was slipping rather than jealousy..
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Old 2009-04-23, 18:51   Link #72
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I don't necessarily think it was influence from Naruto. But jealousy...
[...]
Orochimaru just pushed Sasuke, he did not confirm that Naruto was softening Sasuke.
[...]
When Itachi made an appearance and was about to supposively take the 9-tails (Naruto), Sasuke literally freaked out, ran to the spot, and tried to fight with Itachi almost instantaneously as if it were some killing instinct. He was so angered at him, that he just ran forward with a chidori and literally got stomped on. That's when Sasuke realized, "Oh my power is too weak now, maybe that Orichimaru guy was right."
No.
Orochimaru explained to Kabuto how Naruto was changing Sasuke's heart way back in the volume 10, that's why he wanted Kabuto to kidnap him as soon as possible because of Naruto's influence on Sasuke.
Later in volume 25 at the beginning of their fight at the GotE Sasuke explained that he left the village precisely because of this, because he was foolish enough to have started to dream about a peaceful future with his comrades. In fact that's also what Gaara, Itachi and the Sound 4 told him. His hatred wasn't strong enough, he was playing "family game" with his friends and forgetting his purpose.
Jealousy is the least of the reason why Sasuke left Konoha and only indirectly at that, it was more about Itachi's apparent interest for Naruto and complete lack there of for him. Rasengan? It was nothing but a confirmation of Naruto's growth which fueled Sasuke's inferiority complex, not because of Naruto's strength itself, but because Naruto's incredible growth made his own pales in comparison which had to mean he was doing something wrong.
You also forgot what Sasuke was doing when he learned that Itachi was in Konoha, he didn't go look for his brother, he ran to find Naruto because he was afraid Itachi would find him. He lost it only after he found his brother already there.


Anyway it doesn't have much to do with this chapter.
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Old 2009-04-23, 20:24   Link #73
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Full raw is out. No real surprises. Yahiko is less of a jerk (thankfully) than the initial spoilers portrayed him to be.
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Old 2009-04-23, 20:41   Link #74
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He was portrayed as a jerk?
Anyway yeah it was as boring as expected, let's hope Pain's backstory will get better in two weeks.
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Old 2009-04-23, 21:26   Link #75
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He was portrayed as a jerk?
Anyway yeah it was as boring as expected, let's hope Pain's backstory will get better in two weeks.
LOL, I was just remembering the initial spoilers were it seemed that Yahiko was literally whinning that he wanted to rule the world. It was just very silly sounding. Yahiko, thankfully, was far better in 'person' than he appeared in the spoiler translations.
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Old 2009-04-23, 21:36   Link #76
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He was portrayed as a jerk?
Anyway yeah it was as boring as expected, let's hope Pain's backstory will get better in two weeks.
Next week is golden week...
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Old 2009-04-23, 21:36   Link #77
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It sounds silly but Yahiko is only a 7 years old kid blabbing about ruling the world to make peace. I would hardly call that being a jerk.
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Next week is golden week...
Which is why I said two weeks
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Old 2009-04-23, 21:42   Link #78
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Which is why i said that next week is golden week...
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Old 2009-04-23, 22:33   Link #79
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Old 2009-04-23, 23:56   Link #80
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Going from rapetastic battle to this is rather dull. I wonder how much long it will go for.
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