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Old 2009-04-29, 03:45   Link #61
jwai
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Seriously, did you ever read what Tak wrote about the E-50 Series? It's exact that what's behind the E-50 Prototype.
It was hard to see above all the bitching.
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Old 2009-04-30, 05:46   Link #62
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getting back to the technology, I'm quite interested in the "lance", the infantry anti-armour.

Only seen the preview from episode 4, but it seems quite unusual to see it fired from an actual "lance" and held under the arm instead of over.

I wonder if it's a one-shot, or is it possible to re-arm?

And if we try and compare it with real tech, i doubt it will have sufficient thrust to go far, if you can hold it under arm like that.

But this also means it's not a kinetic-type weapon, maybe a hold-point charge?
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Old 2009-04-30, 05:58   Link #63
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Originally Posted by Onizuka-GTO View Post
getting back to the technology, I'm quite interested in the "lance", the infantry anti-armour.

Only seen the preview from episode 4, but it seems quite unusual to see it fired from an actual "lance" and held under the arm instead of over.

I wonder if it's a one-shot, or is it possible to re-arm?

And if we try and compare it with real tech, i doubt it will have sufficient thrust to go far, if you can hold it under arm like that.

But this also means it's not a kinetic-type weapon, maybe a hold-point charge?
From what i remember, the lance is basically a hand held RPG with the "head" being a rocket which can be rearm as long as the lancer has spare rockets. But in real life, this kind of weapon is impossible to hold due to its sheer weight holding it by the hips. This is the reason why most RPG weapons are held above the shoulder to support its weight.
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Old 2009-04-30, 06:15   Link #64
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Originally Posted by Onizuka-GTO View Post
But this also means it's not a kinetic-type weapon, maybe a hold-point charge?
It says from the game it used shaped charges.

However I noted in the opening game cinimatic, three Imperial Lancers attack a Gallian tank together and their three rounds pierce the tank's armour with little resistance before blowing up a short time later.

I suspect that is just for cinematic experience however.

I also noted in the second episode of the anime the Bruhl Town Watch had a single shot Lancaar in the watch tower which looked a lot like a Panzerfaust.
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Old 2009-04-30, 07:23   Link #65
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Yeah, its obvious the lance was inspired by the Panzerfaust, which did not require the user to hold it above the shoulders to operate, and was designed to be a one-time use only weapon.

The Panzerschreck on the other hand, would require the user to operate above shoulders.

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Old 2009-04-30, 11:27   Link #66
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Old 2009-05-02, 07:38   Link #67
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OK I think that's the thread the most appropriate to ask. I've been kinda wondering about it even in the first few episode, but I was really missing that something in episode 4.

Is the aircrafts (bombers, airships, and fighters) nonexistant in the Valkyria world? I mean if the technology is on about the same level as the real world's 30s, there should have been already quite a lot of aircraft around, but we haven't shown any so far from neither sides (not to mention I doubt Edelweiss is capable of anti-aircraft fire). I would have imagined at least they have some Airships maybe (they were used heavily in the first world war) or some oldschool biplanes.

Anyway I find it weird they don't mention any airsupport in the briefings (both sides again), or the fat guy doesn't consider it in episode 4's fightscene either. (well I was missing how he didn't tried to order some artillery support too, but that's a different matter).

Ps: No I'm not familiar with the game at all, I have no idea if they exist there.
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Old 2009-05-02, 09:13   Link #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by izmosmolnar View Post
OK I think that's the thread the most appropriate to ask. I've been kinda wondering about it even in the first few episode, but I was really missing that something in episode 4.

Is the aircrafts (bombers, airships, and fighters) nonexistant in the Valkyria world? I mean if the technology is on about the same level as the real world's 30s, there should have been already quite a lot of aircraft around, but we haven't shown any so far from neither sides (not to mention I doubt Edelweiss is capable of anti-aircraft fire). I would have imagined at least they have some Airships maybe (they were used heavily in the first world war) or some oldschool biplanes.

Anyway I find it weird they don't mention any airsupport in the briefings (both sides again), or the fat guy doesn't consider it in episode 4's fightscene either. (well I was missing how he didn't tried to order some artillery support too, but that's a different matter).

Ps: No I'm not familiar with the game at all, I have no idea if they exist there.
There is no air support in the game.

Now, that does not mean that the anime will not have any. They could take liberties and put some in.
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Old 2009-05-02, 09:21   Link #69
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Originally Posted by izmosmolnar View Post
OK I think that's the thread the most appropriate to ask. I've been kinda wondering about it even in the first few episode, but I was really missing that something in episode 4.

Is the aircrafts (bombers, airships, and fighters) nonexistant in the Valkyria world? I mean if the technology is on about the same level as the real world's 30s, there should have been already quite a lot of aircraft around, but we haven't shown any so far from neither sides (not to mention I doubt Edelweiss is capable of anti-aircraft fire). I would have imagined at least they have some Airships maybe (they were used heavily in the first world war) or some oldschool biplanes.

Anyway I find it weird they don't mention any airsupport in the briefings (both sides again), or the fat guy doesn't consider it in episode 4's fightscene either. (well I was missing how he didn't tried to order some artillery support too, but that's a different matter).

Ps: No I'm not familiar with the game at all, I have no idea if they exist there.
It's mentioned in the Q & A thread, but I'll just briefly answer your question. There are aircraft, but they are very rare and it seems that the focus of technology is on the tank and aircraft (all types) got the short end of the stick. In other words, all money and effort were put into tank (and anti-tank) development and research. So tank technology is actually more along the level of the mid 1940's and aircraft technology is stalled at somewhere at pre-WWI levels.

The Edelweiss was developed after the First Europan War as a prototype that never made it into production. The discussion here has put it as being based on the E-50 Series prototype of late WWII. The series takes place in 1935, so already tank technology is at least 10 to 15 years more advanced in Valkyria Chronicles than in real history.
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Old 2009-05-02, 11:09   Link #70
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I see. I ran a search prior to asking that (with the word "aircraft"), but since there was no entry I've thought no one was intrigued by it (Well I've read the Q&A now at least).

Anyway, since I feel it more belongs here (and I'm not fond of short questions), I continue here.
If they do have a few experimental "airplane", does that mean they completely skipped airship development all together? It's quite a huge difference (30-40 years) as they were incredibly popular starting from 1900-, and the first attempts of developing it happened more than 20 years before that. Plus they played a vital role in ww1 too (to my understanding the Great War happened in the Valkyrie world too, since the Edelweiss was developed then, and Welkin's father played major role in it). Am I safe to assume the history differs in the Airship development too, and they didn't existed in their WW1?
They are quite different concept from heavier than air aircraft, and if the chemistry is approximately on the same level (it has to be advanced, for utilizing that ragnite), I find it strange how no one took advantage of the power of "lighter than air" gases.
Of course it might be explained they didn't bothered to research it, due to the Darcsen influence you guys wrote, but are the Imperialists so blindly racists too, to ignore the potentials of shifting the balance in power?

Well the Ragnite might had some additional boost on the quicker development of Armored combat, but I would have that it'd boost aerial research too in some way.

The other thing I'm wondering, if they manufactured the Edelweiss ~15-20 years prior to the series, what kind of tanks did they used in the first world war? I imagine they started in such things like Mark I-s and A7V, but I still definitely find it a huge step, to advance to the level of Edelweiss in 4 years (unless the war happened there much longer).
Also, is there any improvement in the Imperialists tanks since the time of WW1? If the Edelweiss was indeed such a fearsome, notorious tank as I was led to believe (I seem to remember they even finished the war because of it's involvement), then why didn't the imperialists tried to counter it in some way and develop something similar in firepower? The tanks we've seen so far are clearly not competitive enough. They had almost like 15-20 years to think about it. Of course it's quite possible we gonna see Tank-Destroyers or something later, but the Imperialist Military shouldn't be so surprised to see the power of Edelweiss IMHO. I would even go as far and say, they should have developed and distributed to every platoon some kinda high powered mine or something to counter it in case it's going to surface again.

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Old 2009-05-02, 11:43   Link #71
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Originally Posted by izmosmolnar View Post
I see. I ran a search prior to asking that (with the word "aircraft"), but since there was no entry I've thought no one was intrigued by it (Well I've read the Q&A now at least).

Anyway, since I feel it more belongs here (and I'm not fond of short questions), I continue here.
If they do have a few experimental "airplane", does that mean they completely skipped airship development all together? It's quite a huge difference (30-40 years) as they were incredibly popular starting from 1900-, and the first attempts of developing it happened more than 20 years before that. Plus they played a vital role in ww1 too (to my understanding the Great War happened in the Valkyrie world too, since the Edelweiss was developed then, and Welkin's father played major role in it). Am I safe to assume the history differs in the Airship development too, and they didn't existed in their WW1?
They are quite different concept from fixed wing aircraft, and if the chemistry is approximately on the same level (it has to be advanced, for utilizing that ragnite), I find it strange how no one took advantage of the power of "lighter than air" gases.
Of course it might be explained they didn't bothered to research it, due to the Darcsen influence you guys wrote, but are the Imperialists so blindly racists too, to ignore the potentials of shifting the balance in power?

Well the Ragnite might had some additional boost on the quicker development of Armored combat, but I would have that it'd boost aerial research too in some way.

The other thing I'm wondering, if they manufactured the Edelweiss ~15-20 years prior to the series, what kind of tanks did they used in the first world war? I imagine they started in such things like Mark I-s and A7V, but I still definitely find it a huge step, to advance to the level of Edelweiss in 4 years (unless the war happened there much longer).
Also, is there any improvement in the Imperialists tanks since the time of WW1? If the Edelweiss was indeed such a fearsome, notorious tank as I was led to believe (I seem to remember they even finished the war because of it's involvement), then why didn't the imperialists tried to counter it in some way and develop something similar in firepower? The tanks we've seen so far are clearly not competitive enough. They had almost like 15-20 years to think about it. Of course it's quite possible we gonna see Tank-Destroyers or something later, but the Imperialist Military shouldn't be so surprised to see the power of Edelweiss IMHO. I would even go as far and say, they should have developed and distributed to every platoon some kinda high powered mine or something to counter it in case it's going to surface again.
I don't remember any references to Airships in the game so I would assume that either the technology never got developed or was abandoned early on. I have to get my game copy back from my brother to check on that, though.

The Empire's advanced tanks do show up later in the game, so a few prominent ones should eventually show up in the anime. And Tank Destroyers do appear in the game in later missions, although whether the anime includes them is the question. Most of the Imperial tanks so far in the anime are light units so aside from older technology/design, they are already outgunned by the Edelweiss which is considered a medium unit.
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Old 2009-05-20, 21:22   Link #72
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I'd love to have some sort of mod for VC that gives my Edelweiss tank shell reflecting anime armor. If the anime's Edelweiss already does that stuff with level one armor, I wonder how overpowered that tank would be if they integrated the armor upgrades into the show, especially the final level gun. That cannon could destroy a tank merely by being rammed into its broadside.
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Old 2009-05-20, 23:44   Link #73
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Correct me if I'm wrong but so far none of the Imperial Tanks have actually scored a direct hit on the tank.

So far the armor has shown it can withstand random(lack of a better term) shell fire but it really hasn't taken an actual direct hit on it.
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Old 2009-05-21, 03:02   Link #74
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Not to mention that the only tanks shown so far have been the Imperial Light Tanks. I wonder when they're going to show the Medium, Heavy and Tank Destroyer classes?
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Old 2009-05-21, 03:13   Link #75
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Correct me if I'm wrong but so far none of the Imperial Tanks have actually scored a direct hit on the tank.

So far the armor has shown it can withstand random(lack of a better term) shell fire but it really hasn't taken an actual direct hit on it.
It takes a glancing blow off the barrel shroud in episode five but it doesn't leave any marks.
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Old 2009-05-21, 12:28   Link #76
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It's mentioned in the Q & A thread, but I'll just briefly answer your question. There are aircraft, but they are very rare and it seems that the focus of technology is on the tank and aircraft (all types) got the short end of the stick. In other words, all money and effort were put into tank (and anti-tank) development and research. So tank technology is actually more along the level of the mid 1940's and aircraft technology is stalled at somewhere at pre-WWI levels...
In other words, what we have here is apparently a collective failure to fully grasp the possibilities aircraft represent. Once someone gets that 'aha!' moment (Pearl Harbor, as I understand, was such with respect to naval aviation), I suspect analogues of the Il-2 Shturmovik, P-39 Airacobra, or G-model Ju-87 Stuka (the first two can be called spiritual ancestors of the A-10 Warthog) will be developed and fielded in short order, much to the great advantage of whoever's first onto the proverbial ballpark...
To amplify izmosmolnar's comment about WW1: aircraft were initially fielded as observation platforms; attempts to counter this led to the first fighters; and bombers developed from there (Germany used zeppelins as early strategic bombers, as I recall).
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Old 2009-05-21, 14:20   Link #77
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I'd love to have some sort of mod for VC that gives my Edelweiss tank shell reflecting anime armor. If the anime's Edelweiss already does that stuff with level one armor, I wonder how overpowered that tank would be if they integrated the armor upgrades into the show, especially the final level gun. That cannon could destroy a tank merely by being rammed into its broadside.
This is something that you can chalk to game mechanics being a lot less accurate than real life. Under most circumstances, gun rounds that fail to penetrate armor do no damage at all. In games, this is usually done with hit points. Hopefully, the show won't go into upgrading Edelweiss since that kind of stuff really doesn't happen much, especially for one-off designs.

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Correct me if I'm wrong but so far none of the Imperial Tanks have actually scored a direct hit on the tank.

So far the armor has shown it can withstand random(lack of a better term) shell fire but it really hasn't taken an actual direct hit on it.
The Imperials have hit Edelweiss at least once that I can recall, but it was from a short-barreled gun which would presumably have low muzzle-velocity and poor penetration characteristics. Making tanks impervious to this kind of attack is precisely the reason for designing them with heavy armor.

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In other words, what we have here is apparently a collective failure to fully grasp the possibilities aircraft represent. Once someone gets that 'aha!' moment (Pearl Harbor, as I understand, was such with respect to naval aviation), I suspect analogues of the Il-2 Shturmovik, P-39 Airacobra, or G-model Ju-87 Stuka (the first two can be called spiritual ancestors of the A-10 Warthog) will be developed and fielded in short order, much to the great advantage of whoever's first onto the proverbial ballpark...
That isn't quite true for ground campaigns. Tactical attack aircraft historically took a very long time before they were very effective, and even in World War II, they were only good against certain kinds of targets. Even now, they are a very useful force multiplier, but not quite a game winner.

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To amplify izmosmolnar's comment about WW1: aircraft were initially fielded as observation platforms; attempts to counter this led to the first fighters; and bombers developed from there (Germany used zeppelins as early strategic bombers, as I recall).
You're quite correct; except that Zeppelins don't count as strategic bombers.
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Old 2009-05-21, 15:23   Link #78
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The Imperials have hit Edelweiss at least once that I can recall, but it was from a short-barreled gun which would presumably have low muzzle-velocity and poor penetration characteristics. Making tanks impervious to this kind of attack is precisely the reason for designing them with heavy armor.
Yeah the Edelweiss' armor is really tough in comparison to what the Imperials and Gallians deploy.

The only thing that can match it I think are the super tank variants.

Though it's sad when you look at it because those imperial tanks make short work of those gallian tanks and I'm pretty sure with their longer barrels they'd have better accuracy and penetrating power.
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Old 2009-05-21, 17:08   Link #79
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That isn't quite true for ground campaigns. Tactical attack aircraft historically took a very long time before they were very effective, and even in World War II, they were only good against certain kinds of targets. Even now, they are a very useful force multiplier, but not quite a game winner.
You are quite correct to make this observation - the cannons carried by CAS aircraft can't reliably punch through an MBT's front armor; the top and rear facings, however, are another matter... as would be the other 'rolling stock' that makes up a mechanized force. You know, supply trucks, APCs, arty units, and so on. Both 'Red Storm Rising' and 'The Bear and the Dragon' showcase the disruptive effect airpower has on an advancing force when brought to bear on its proverbial soft underbelly. In the referenced scenarios, it was still up to friendly boots (and tracks) on the ground to hold the line and eventually roll things up.
It just amazes me that the 'aha' moment hasn't really come up in the VC world as yet...

Quote:
You're quite correct; except that Zeppelins don't count as strategic bombers.
Also correct, for an number of reasons (like their incredible vulnerability - hydrogen lifting agent plus incendiary bullets never ends well). Interestingly, the Germans were rather late developing true strategic bombers in WW2; two examples which come to mind are the He-177 'Grief' (Griffin) and Ju-390, the latter of which never progressed beyond the prototype stage.
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Old 2009-05-21, 19:25   Link #80
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As far as I can tell in the game lore, there was an 'aha' moment, even during EW1. It was just made by the same man that designed the Edelweiss, and we all understand how that was ignored even though it is utterly awesome.
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