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Old 2009-05-23, 14:26   Link #141
ivoryshoes
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Wink

Perhaps I realized this late but,

In the first episode No.1 had this convo with Juiz on the car, he said that IX is more unique than he imagined but it was the end, and Juiz said she's disappointed,

No1 : Juiz, Are you on his side? You must be jealous, Juiz.

Does this have anything to do with Saki after all? I think Saki is not just an extra to add some fluffy romance stuff, but she might be something like the core of the story. Something like, Akira is sacrificing his memory in attempt to save her or something. I don't know.
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Old 2009-05-23, 14:32   Link #142
Raiga
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One thing that kinda supports the theory that Mr. Outside is involved with the government...

Is it just me or have the bribes of officials and the police, falsification of records etc. been pretty darned cheap, in comparison to other Selecao purchases?
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Old 2009-05-23, 14:58   Link #143
golthin
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Originally Posted by Raiga View Post
One thing that kinda supports the theory that Mr. Outside is involved with the government...

Is it just me or have the bribes of officials and the police, falsification of records etc. been pretty darned cheap, in comparison to other Selecao purchases?
yeah, i think that mr outside has a lot of influence or the prices for the task are just FEE and not the actual cost of many of the things.
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Old 2009-05-23, 15:22   Link #144
Kazu-kun
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Originally Posted by ivoryshoes View Post
Perhaps I realized this late but,

In the first episode No.1 had this convo with Juiz on the car, he said that IX is more unique than he imagined but it was the end, and Juiz said she's disappointed,

No1 : Juiz, Are you on his side? You must be jealous, Juiz.

Does this have anything to do with Saki after all? I think Saki is not just an extra to add some fluffy romance stuff, but she might be something like the core of the story. Something like, Akira is sacrificing his memory in attempt to save her or something. I don't know.
It's not "You must be jealous, Juiz.", but rather "I'm jealous, Juiz" (because he feels Juiz is favoring n║9).
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Old 2009-05-24, 10:33   Link #145
Jan-Poo
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Yeah I also come to the same conclusion. Japanese is a language where the subject is often omitted, without knowing the context it's not easy to determine what the subject should be. In that particular scene that sentence was ambiguous. Now that we have more info we can safely assume that what number 1 actually wanted to say is that he himself is jealous and not Juiz.


With episode 7 I think we have a pretty high probability that Akira is indeed the one behind careless monday. There's a lot of pieces scattered on many episodes but if you put them together you can reach this conclusion.

1) Kondo thought that Akira abducted the 20.000 NEET and killed them by bringing them on the sites that were hit by the missile attacks. This is probably because Kondo noticed that Akira gathered the NEET and moved them somewhere and then he noticed that Akira ordered the missile attack. The rest is just Kondo's speculation. He thought the two things were connected but apparently they are not.

2) There's some history in Akira's transactions that have been canceled. This gives the ground to believe that part of history is related to the missile attacks.

3) Hiura hinted that Akira did more amazing things than just gathering a bunch of NEETs. This suggests that he knows the part that was canceled but he doesn't want to tell because he thinks Akira himself didn't want to remember that.

4) Diana also says that Akira is behind careless monday. This is yet another proof that not just kondo but probably all the selešao are under this impression. This would also explain why Kondo says that number IX is seen as a dangerous guy. The most logical explanation to this is that the order of the missile attack was shown on all the selešaos phones.

5) Noone died on the first careless monday attacks. This match with Akira's personality. Akira is not someone that would kill others whatever is his goal. The specific order that noone should have died is something that he would do.

The last attack did cause victims however this could be explained with several theories. For instance the last attack might not have been ordered by him. Or maybe it was an incident, that airplane maybe happened to be in the wrong place.


Another thing that should be noted is that all the other selešao shown so far (except number 1) expressed their suspect about number IX being the supporter. Kondo did, Hiura did, Diana did. It looks like in the canceled history there was something that made them get such impression.
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Old 2009-05-24, 13:13   Link #146
izmosmolnar
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If Akira is indeed the supporter (I still don't believe so though) it would also explain, how could the selecaos spending their money on their own benefit still unpunished, despite being a rule against that.
So, did #1 take on the Selecao duties, when he have confirmed Akira is about to lose his memories? Because someone definitely punished Hiura and Kondo at the appropriate time, when they had no more money left.

I also think the last attack with the airplane and the casualties are done by someone else, than the previous culprit. If I remember correctly, there is about a month break between that date and the last one. Why would the perpetrator fire several missiles, then wait a month and fire one more missile? It hardly makes any sense.

I still believe the Supporter (provided it wasn't Akira) could have transferred the purchase history of anything (including the cost of the Careless Monday) and then he could have bought the purchase history deletion the night before episode1. Even if pre-memorywhiped Akira notices that someone framed him by charging him with the careless monday, he cannot notify the other selecaos and tell them it wasn't actually his work.
Actually if he was framed, it might caused him to seek revenge by attempting to murder Outside and/or Supporter.

It would be too obvious if #1 commits the Careless Monday and the price is there on his own account. If he is the supporter I believe he is able to transfer it to someone else's account.
Basically there would be no point to punish anyone via Juiz, if it shows up on everyones purchase history. I reckon, they should have implemented a "charge someone else" option for the Supporter only, so he/she could avoid the suspicion.
And by transferring things, he can put the whole blame of being a Supporter on someone else (and that's what he might have done to Akira according to my belief currently).
And with the same logic, if Akira is indeed the Supporter they "should" be having that option on his phone, but as far as we've seen there isn't any on the main layout (I know, neither does #1). However I reckon Akira spent enough time with his phone to notice if there is an option like that.

Of course it's possible there aren't any such option at all, and the Supporter is supposed to be punishing Selecaos by ordinary methods to avoid suspicion.

I wonder if redirecting Kondo's message was charged by someone or not? Akira could have realized who was responsible by knowing that, but there was no sign that the phone signaled. So I presume there might be an option for the Supporter to utilize Juiz with some manipulative possibilities regarding the Supporter's account history. Or he/she has some influence over the telephone companies to redirect a message, but that seems far-fetched.

I do agree though, there are clearly several clues supporting pre-Akira being the Supporter.

Last edited by izmosmolnar; 2009-05-24 at 13:47.
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Old 2009-05-24, 18:06   Link #147
Jan-Poo
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Well actually it's not like I believe Akira is the supporter. I don't think I can deny this completely but I don't really like the idea to be honest. I like my theory of an inexistent supporter (with Juiz actually doing the job) that is only meant to make everyone suspect anyone else, but that doesn't mean this will be shown to be true. I'm not really going to rely too much on logic arguments because there are too many things that do not seem to make sense right now. Then maybe I'm wrong and everything will have a perfectly rational explanation (I hope so) but I doubt it.

I'm talking, of course, about the Juiz system. It is clear right now that what Juiz is capable of cannot be normally achieved no matter how many much money you got. It even goes beyond an incredibly complex system of connections, because the time of executions of the orders is just way too quick. Juiz also seem to be omniscent or close to that when she must execute the orders (you tell her "kill that man" on a phone and not only she clearly understand whom the selešao is referring to, she is even capable of making her on field contact understand that without fail in a few seconds), however she seems completely clueless in any other circumstances (she asked why Kondo made that question about stolen selešao's phones, she doesn't know about Johnny Taker, she says she can't tell Akira what's his identity).

There is also to note the almost flawless executions of the orders. Just think about careless monday, there were a ton of things that could have gone wrong, how exactly can you evacuate several area of tokyo and then launch a missile that will precisely hit the center of it and make no victims at all? Then the triple murder ordered by kondo, three shots, three headshots, instadeath, who the hell was that guy? Did he use a sniper rifle inside a car? A sniper rifle with a silencer?

I don't think I really need to say more, so I won't. If you haven't already reached the conclusion that all that cannot be possibly made in reality I doubt you would by reading the rest.

I came up with a possible explanation, however right now it's completely baseless. I imagined that maybe the Juiz system doesn't use money and connections but a brainwashing program similar to memory eraser. That way Juiz only has to phone the right person and brainwashing them so to make them do what she wants. This basically mean that the 10 billion of yen are not real money but something like points, Juiz arbitrarily decides the cost according to her judgment. This would explain why she can reach anyone everywhere, this would explain why she can have a prompt execution of the orders (since she could use practically anyone anywhere using cell phone triangulation to locate the closest person to a certain location). This would explain why the phone money cannot be converted in real money (they do not actually exist). This would explain why Diana had to pay 1.6 billion for the hotel even though it was in Juiz possession on behalf of Akira (she just made her pay a symbolic amount of points). This would explain why she only charged that few yen to make the prime minister say "uncle" (being an AI her judgment might be somehow off, and she just made akira pay the fee to make someone say something, disregarding who was the subject in question).
However this wouldn't explain why the phones can be used as credit cards (meaning that the money are true after all), and it doesn't explain how Juiz could make any person she contacts a completely competent person.
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Old 2009-05-24, 22:11   Link #148
Kaoru Chujo
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Come to think of it, it's true: how can Akira be the Supporter, at least now, since Kondo and Hiura were supposedly killed by or on the orders of the Supporter, yet Akira knew nothing about it?

Are we sure that there is only one Supporter? As Jan-Poo says, there may be none. Or there may be more than one. There are six unidentified Selecao. Is Saki's brother-in-law one?

There must have been something in the erased gap that made other Selecao think Akira was the Supporter, however.

I've always assumed that the plane in the last attack just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I want to know why Saki gives the impression of having heard the name Juiz before (through her brother-in-law?). And why she had the expression she did in the taxi. It was so oddly depressed and averted.

And I still wonder about the odd sidelong glances of the taxi driver.

It does seem likely that Akira was involved in Careless Monday, yet #1 was shown at a military airfield, with a truck of missiles shows behind him....
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Last edited by Kaoru Chujo; 2009-05-24 at 22:29.
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Old 2009-05-24, 23:01   Link #149
MeoTwister5
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To me actually it's not that the Supporter must in person kill the Selecao who have violated the rules. It may very well be that he possesses the same rights as a Selecao, in so much as he can order (or stage) the killings of the Selecao if he so chooses to do so. He did it directly with Hiura, and in a more roundabout way for Kondo.

The question as some have raised is why the Supporter didn't have the Selecao who have potentially violated the rules killed immediately. Kondo lived to the end of his pocket money before he was stabbed, Huiz didn't exactly violate a lot of the rules, Diana's actions are itself questionable and Akira's possible past actions are somewhat bizarre to say the least.

This leads me to believe that perhaps the Supporter himself is not bound to strict objective rules of the system. I would say that the Supporter is also following the same subjective rule set the Selecao have. If in the case of the Selecao its a subjective idea on how to save Japan, for the Supporter it's a subjective belief on how the rules are itself violated. This could account for the inconsistent parameters that the Supporter seems to act on.

And yed, Saki seems to have some familiarity with at least one of the words she heard on Diana and Akira's conversation, which further leads credence to the idea that she might be an unknown factor in this game, and my personal belief that she was in fact the possible target of pre-amnesia Akira.
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Old 2009-05-24, 23:05   Link #150
Katsumara
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I actually agree with the thought that Saki could be the target of a pre-amnesia Akira. He had his gun and phone in hand, granted he was naked, and was in front of the White House. There's not much he could have done to the White House in that situation, and that would have zero to do with saving Japan. Maybe.. Akira or whoever told him to do something felt that the club, "Eden of the East" was a threat somehow with the system they devised (that analyzes things) and it was determined that Akira should eliminate the threat?

I don't know. This series certainly makes you think. I'd love for Akira and Saki to have a happy ending by the end of things, but I honestly don't see it being possible. I also believe Saki isn't just a female lead thrown in, but someone with significant purpose to the plot. It would be a twist of sorts of Akira and Saki turned out to be enemies, even if they may like each other. :/
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Old 2009-05-24, 23:09   Link #151
MeoTwister5
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My only real complaint right now is that Saki is too much of an outside observer as it was. The ending to episode 7 seems to signal the beginning of her true major active role which would be awesome.
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Old 2009-05-25, 01:30   Link #152
voxxa
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Honestly, this is just a theory but I believe that Juiz is the supporter. Juiz is the only one that could've sent the message by the detective to his wife, and Juiz is the only one that could get some1 to go into the hospital of the doctor.
Not too sure on how plausible this sounds to me, but it'd definitely give some meaning to her remarks about how she 'hopes Akira becomes more economical in the future' and that he's a 'violent messiah.'
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Old 2009-05-25, 07:20   Link #153
Jan-Poo
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Saying that Juiz is the supporter is like saying there is no supporter. The supporter is supposed to be a Selešao, if it's not then it's not a supporter it's just Juiz doing the killings. Unless it turns out that Juiz is a selešao ░░;
Juiz does fit the description though... she is enthusiastic when it comes to help other selešaos but she's a strict judge when it comes to punishment. And Juiz means judge...

Quote:
There are six unidentified Selecao. Is Saki's brother-in-law one?
Six? Who am I missing?

We know the identities of numbers: I, IV, V, IX and XI, that makes five. Who's the sixth one? ░░
The idea that Ryusuke is a selešao is interesting and I also thought something around that line. At first I thought that Ryusuke was number I XD. But it looks like they are two different persons. Anyway if Saki really knows something about selešao she should tell on the next episode.
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Old 2009-05-25, 07:36   Link #154
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Un-identified as in the ones whose identities are unknown. That would be II, III, VI, VII, VIII and X.

Edit: Well duh. How the hell did I forget the obvious one. So seven in all. Thanks izmos.

Last edited by ~BC~; 2009-05-25 at 08:20.
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Old 2009-05-25, 07:42   Link #155
izmosmolnar
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And I believe #12 is unidentified too, since we don't know anything about him/her either. Apart from the fact, that they don't connect to his emblem alone in the opening. So I reckon he/she might be someone relevant to the main plot.
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Old 2009-05-25, 08:05   Link #156
Raa
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Is it only me, or the Eden of the East club just popped out of nowhere into 6th episode (or was it 5th one?) and suddenly everybody knows about it...
Or did I missed something?
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Old 2009-05-25, 08:28   Link #157
izmosmolnar
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@ ~BC~ no probs .

Well, I remember there has been some translated informations going around here, elaborating how the Eden of the East club is a leisure University club, and how they have made some awesome program, which was supposed to be designed mainly by Michon.
So some of us here were aware of them to a certain level, by episode 2 or even before.

If you are referring on the characters in the anime, then it's only Akira who was unfamiliar with them, but after the episode when they properly presented themselves for introduction, and got to know each other it is not extraordinary he is OK with them.
(Additionally, according to my theory he might have been familiar with them to a degree before his memorywhipe, and that might have made him to meet Saki in DC -whether with or without any malicious intent -. )

I believe Saki's sister and bro in law knows about the club too, since they definitely know Michan already (of course it's possible she knows her from somewhere else, but I don't see a reason why would Saki lie about not being in the same club with her).
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Old 2009-05-25, 10:13   Link #158
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by ~BC~ View Post
Un-identified as in the ones whose identities are unknown. That would be II, III, VI, VII, VIII and X.

Edit: Well duh. How the hell did I forget the obvious one. So seven in all. Thanks izmos.
Lol of course if there are six un-identified selešao there must be six identified selešao XD, it's not like I misinterpreted the word it was just easier to me talking about those whose identity is known ^^;
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Old 2009-05-25, 23:25   Link #159
shmaster
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I want to raise a question... what are the chances of Akira's amensia being fake? As in, it is just a cover up?
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Old 2009-05-26, 00:08   Link #160
~BC~
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I'd say it's unlikely. In ep. 1 compare how he looks before answering the cell to after he drops it.

Before answering cell: Deliberately takes off pants and then focuses gun on target.

After hearing noise and dropping cell: Is completely confused as to why he's naked and holding a gun. He also remarks that he recognizes the White House but can't remember who he is.

And there's no one to witness his confusion so there's no reason to think that it's an act either. Ditto for when he's questioning things at his apartment.
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