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Old 2009-05-06, 17:08   Link #61
monir
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Originally Posted by Mitsuomi1971 View Post
As for a Bankai for Kira...I suspect it would be something along the lines of turning someone to stone or somesuch.
His shikai manipulates gravity by increasing the gravitational pull. So it would be logical to assume, his bankai would see higher level of manipulation of gravity. May be his bankai would create a neutron star, or better yet, a black hole where nothing can escape it's gravitational pull. Ultimate hax.

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As far as folks thinking the beheading was wrong, let us all never forget that these are hollows they are fighting...they may have human words and human appearances at times, but they are evil spirits who did wrong in life and after they were dead they were even more heinous...please feel no remorse for the evil spirits


Whether it was done by the "good guys" or the "bad guys" doesn't lessen the degree of the act in question. The fact is Kira killed someone. His act in this instance was just as heinous as those "evil spirits".

The fascinating thing about Bleach is that there are very few distinction between the supposed "bad guys" and the "good guys." Good guys in Soul Society created just as many "bad spirits" as the bad guys in the Hollow world created its share of "good spirits."

As long as it isn't justified, it's ok to enjoy the act.
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Old 2009-05-06, 17:13   Link #62
kitten320
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Originally Posted by Mitsuomi1971 View Post
Byakuya is an instance of perception...is a judge who sentences their sister to death for a perceived crime against the state evil? We all know in hindsight that the orders were faked, however Byak has explained his ideals ad nauseum...so we know in his heart he is not evil. People, whether they be hollow,shinigami or pluses can change their hearts, when...is the question
I wonder to whom he would apologize if he did kill her
The fact is he tried and he could.

But as you said people may change so same thing goes to Hollows. they may have made mistkes while being alive, but they can change and have second chance.
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Old 2009-05-06, 17:19   Link #63
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Originally Posted by monir View Post
His shikai manipulates gravity by increasing the gravitational pull. So it would be logical to assume, his bankai would see higher level of manipulation of gravity. May be his bankai would create a neutron star, or better yet, a black hole where nothing can escape it's gravitational pull. Ultimate hax.
Lol I just learned about neutron stars last week in my astronomy class! I think that it would be cool if kira's bankai was the opposite of his shikai.I.E: makes what ever it cuts 2x lighter, until his opponents just float away
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Old 2009-05-06, 17:22   Link #64
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Originally Posted by kitten320 View Post
they may have made mistkes while being alive, but they can change and have second chance.
The bolded part is a misconception evil people =/= hollow . The most noblest of a human being can turn into a hollow due to chain decay . And SS encourages hollows .... Number of hollows == Number of souls, if the balance is drastically altered the the three worlds collapse into each other ( SS Human World HM ) . The quincy genocide happened for that exact reason, quincy kill hollows whilst shinigami purify them into souls.Shinigamis only hunt hollows in Human world .
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Old 2009-05-06, 17:26   Link #65
Mitsuomi1971
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Is it bad to kill for your ideals? I am not able to answer that question for anyone but myself and this is not the place I will be answering it
However in this one instance of Kira beheading the hollow, I feel he is justified...they are at war, he is an enemy combatant, and what is so different between simply stabbing someone in the throat, severing their carotid and jugular and beheading them...either way they die... yes Kira showed anger and arrogance again...they are at war, the balance of Heaven and Hell and everything in between is at risk, so killing your opponent is acceptable imho, I mean roseboy got killed and I don't hear anyone claiming how evil the other guy was :P...anyway all of these characters seem to operate under some Bushido similar to the samurai...it seems the old feudal ways are never forgotten, even in fiction.
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Old 2009-05-06, 17:26   Link #66
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hollows are not 'evil' spirits...i have no idea who is saying that but thats so incorrect that i had to punch myself. they're spirits who weren't led by the shinigami to ss. So what they have to canabalize the other hollows...thats the rules of their world. kind of like how in ss only those with reiatsu need to eat. besides when you cannabalize wouldn't they just get resurrected to ss? (thats a real question which i would like answered by the way)


kira is now number 3 on my hate list...right behind inoue and hitsuguya
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Old 2009-05-06, 17:43   Link #67
Mitsuomi1971
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I was saying that they were evil, because that is how it was explained in Bleach...no, not every hollow in existence is an evil person in life, however my original assertion was that all of the Arrancar and Espada were evil people in life and were also evil after they became Hollows...Grimjow is a prime example of a hateful evil man who only cared about one thing...becoming the most powerful creature in his world, he wanted to be King. Every story is filled with good and bad...the balance is the key...and I am not the one who decides those things
But since the human side of the story has never been told for these Arrancar and Espada, I can only assume that the most powerful Hollow were also the most evil. If you want or choose to believe that these creatures were kind and noble humans who somehow got duped or accidently became the most powerful of their kind that is your choice. Yes Aizen turned them into even more powerful creatures, however his evil does not change the fact that those hollow were evil before Aizen showed up imho. But as I said, some hearts change...on with the show
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Old 2009-05-06, 17:45   Link #68
monir
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Originally Posted by Mitsuomi1971 View Post
Is it bad to kill for your ideals? I am not able to answer that question for anyone but myself and this is not the place I will be answering it
However in this one instance of Kira beheading the hollow, I feel he is justified...they are at war, he is an enemy combatant, and what is so different between simply stabbing someone in the throat, severing their carotid and jugular and beheading them...either way they die... yes Kira showed anger and arrogance again...they are at war, the balance of Heaven and Hell and everything in between is at risk, so killing your opponent is acceptable imho, I mean roseboy got killed and I don't hear anyone claiming how evil the other guy was :P...anyway all of these characters seem to operate under some Bushido similar to the samurai...it seems the old feudal ways are never forgotten, even in fiction.
Your thoughts and uptakes on Kira's action isn't in question. In fact, you should most definitely have the right to feel that way. I also think Kira did the smart thing by eliminating his enemy. His enemy would have done exactly the same thing if he had the chance.

What makes it questionable is when someone tells the mass, you should think like me... i.e. when you mentioned people shouldn't feel bad about the beheading because it's okay to kill evil spirits.

The distinction between hollow and the advance forms of hollow is that the advance forms are conscious of their existence. They can make rational choices. Hollows eat things because reiatsu is delicious. Grimjow ate things because it will give him power. Grimjow did it by choice. Average hollows do it by instinct.

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Lol I just learned about neutron stars last week in my astronomy class!
Wait till you get to quagma state, quirk nugget, and etc.. Astronomy is fascinating stuff.
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Old 2009-05-06, 17:50   Link #69
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Gomen Nasai to anyone I may have offended.
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Old 2009-05-06, 17:51   Link #70
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Currently all arrancars and espada following Aizen are evil, because to create ouken , one million mod souls ( 1 mill Kon's) have to be sacrificed .
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Old 2009-05-06, 17:53   Link #71
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Arrancars and whatnot can't have a human story because they were originally formed from hundreds of hollows put together.
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Old 2009-05-06, 18:08   Link #72
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Regarding Kira the execution/beheading was wrong simply because the fraccion was defenseless and at his mercy . Kira killed in cold blood and not in heat of battle . And executing people who are at your mercy is unbecoming of a warrior . As its a samurai inspired series even going by Bushido , Avirama had to live with the shame as a coward or commit Sepaku/Harakiri to redeem his honor.

And there is a dues ex machina at play here ... If Avirama had reverted to his original form he could have escaped . Yet he chose to remain in his resurrection form .
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Old 2009-05-06, 20:09   Link #73
monir
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Originally Posted by Geta Boshi View Post
And there is a dues ex machina at play here ... If Avirama had reverted to his original form he could have escaped . Yet he chose to remain in his resurrection form .
I really thought he was going to discard his wings any minute. What was the need for the villain to have wings anyway? It's not like he will stop flying if he didn't have wings. After all, everyone without wings are doing pretty well at flying around.

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Gomen Nasai to anyone I may have offended.
None taken. I just wanted to point out that Kira's action had nothing to do with exorcising evil spirits and what not. He did it because he wanted to. We can only guess behind the question, why?
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Old 2009-05-06, 20:16   Link #74
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I liked Kira...If u lose u die.As simple as that.
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Old 2009-05-06, 20:28   Link #75
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Old 2009-05-06, 20:28   Link #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geta Boshi View Post
And there is a dues ex machina at play here ... If Avirama had reverted to his original form he could have escaped . Yet he chose to remain in his resurrection form .
Quote:
Originally Posted by monir View Post
I really thought he was going to discard his wings any minute. What was the need for the villain to have wings anyway? It's not like he will stop flying if he didn't have wings. After all, everyone without wings are doing pretty well at flying around.


None taken. I just wanted to point out that Kira's action had nothing to do with exorcising evil spirits and what not. He did it because he wanted to. We can only guess behind the question, why?
If he had reverted to his original form he would have still been screwed as Kira would be faster and he would have no range advantage.

As far as if Kira was right, this has been brought up before and it seems that it needs to be brought up again. "Killing" hollows has always been the right thing to do, this has been established since the start of Bleach. It was established with one of the first hollow fights where Rukia made it clear that destroying the hollow purifies the soul and allows it to go where it needs to go. This isn't some honorary warrior and this isn't a human, this is a hollowification that is preventing a soul from passing on.
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Old 2009-05-06, 20:48   Link #77
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If he had reverted to his original form he would have still been screwed as Kira would be faster and he would have no range advantage.
I was commenting on the fact that his evolution to the next level gives him wings. Considering where everyone is walking/running/doing-slides, wings are anything but practical. The only reason the wings were needed in an opponent against Kira, so Kira could show off his gravity attack. Plot no jutsu at its best.

Quote:
As far as if Kira was right, this has been brought up before and it seems that it needs to be brought up again.
You will have to do a few more times in the future I predict. I've made my points and I'm satisfied without adding further. Perhaps my thoughts will make sense if taken from a slightly different perspective? I can only hope.
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Old 2009-05-06, 21:03   Link #78
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Originally Posted by monir View Post
I was commenting on the fact that his evolution to the next level gives him wings. Considering where everyone is walking/running/doing-slides, wings are anything but practical. The only reason the wings were needed in an opponent against Kira, so Kira could show off his gravity attack. Plot no jutsu at its best.
Actually the point of the wings was to shoot feathers and from the looks of it it had a slight advantage in flight, less knockback. Also the release in and of itself increases an arrancar's power. Besides from the looks of it, he still seemed to have some control as he was able to pull off that final attack of his, but then Kira just dodges it anyway and from that point on he really didn't have enough time to really do anything else.

As far as perception goes, I'm not going to debate morals here, but I would think in, regards to the story, that the author's perception is the most important, as he is the one responsible for the story. Just my thoughts.
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Old 2009-05-06, 21:19   Link #79
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Theres still 2 fights left. Then we can finally get on with the captain fights. These fights just aren't that exciting. Even in the manga it failed to do much.
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Old 2009-05-06, 21:20   Link #80
Mitsuomi1971
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Originally Posted by HayashiTakara View Post
Arrancars and whatnot can't have a human story because they were originally formed from hundreds of hollows put together.
True but for one thing, the dominant personality holds sway over the hive-mind until it forms into an adjuchas, where the dominant one is all that is left in the new body...this also was explained in the series. So there is a human story for all of these creatures. I would love to hear them one day...perhaps call it the Chronicles of the Dead.


Also in response to the fraccion being at Kiras mercy , in ancient Japan and other warrior cultures it was normal for a warrior to kill the loser of their duel/competition...yes even as the fallen lay there helpless...in fact it was expected of one to finish an opponent. Despite all the romantic ideas some folks have about warrior life, it was brutal and unyielding. Wrong or right in one's opinion, those are the historical facts and that is what I meant by a Bushido being honored.

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Originally Posted by monir View Post
His shikai manipulates gravity by increasing the gravitational pull. So it would be logical to assume, his bankai would see higher level of manipulation of gravity. May be his bankai would create a neutron star, or better yet, a black hole where nothing can escape it's gravitational pull.
I have to ask where you got the idea about Kira's shikai somehow changing the gravitational pull of something, my assertion is that he simply makes it heavier by changing the molecular structure to a denser form this is why he can say 2x with each hit...otherwise his zanpaku-to would have to adjust for the gravity of whereever he was at the time, thus his sword would be ineffective in water for instance...it's effect is a constant no matter where he is, so that is why I believe it is a matter rather than a force change... I can't see it changing the gravity of an object in relation to the entire planet, it would not work in soul society if that were the case. And that explanation seems way too grandiose for what his shikai does, though the end result is the same, just an opinion, no offense sir
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