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Old 2009-05-17, 23:32   Link #201
Nobodyman9
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Might I say that that was very well thought out, informative, and thought-provoking post you made Sol. You are right though that there are some things that other Shirley fans (myself included) disagree with you about, but that's not to say that your opinion is without merit. I will say though that you raised a very good point about how Shirley was quite possibly the one truth to him that could have saved him from his life of unfaithfulness. This analysis makes it all the more clear to me what Shirley meant with her dying words "I wanted to be the one thing truthful to you".

So could Shirley have saved Lelouch if she survived? Hmm, I suppose it's possible, as you said she was only a "small truth," but she was a truth nonetheless. However, the real, and very sad, truth is that she probably needed to die. If Lelouch was convinced to have faith in the world that could totally change how he went about revolutionizing the world. And that couldn't happen. Lelouch had to be merciless in his tactics and bring down Brittania's tyrannical reign at any cost.

In theory. Now that I'm thinking about it, I guess it's also possible that he could have changed the world through other means. He could have changed the world while still having faith in it. Or perhaps not. I'm really not sure right now.

Anyway, I do disagree with you about the reincarnation thing though. Your claims about the "shallowness" of their relationship in R2 may hold some validity (even more so if you went into more detail) but the fact remains that, not only do we think reincarnation was a big part of her character, but so does she and the CG staff. Those were the final words of her dying speech, that no matter how many times she's reborn she will definitely fall in love with Lelouch. Also, although I don't want to get ahead of myself here by defending it before you even go into detail about your claims, but I think part of the reason that Shirley and Lelouch's relationship may have seemed "shallow," as you put it, may have been because the CG staff just didn't have the time to develop it (they messed up a lot of things in R2)

As far as the reincarnation, and them being together in another more peaceful world. Well, I guess we'll never know for sure, but one can dream. I don't think anyone here can definitely claim that it would or wouldn't happen, and as they would be reincarnated, and by the very nature of reincarnation, the circumstances would be quite different, I'm sure. I think it's entirely possible that it could work between them in a different world, and I think there's more to Shirley's love for Lelouch than her just wanting to be a Good Samaritan to him by rescuing him from the darkness.

And hey, I just wanna say that, whether we agree or not, you're always welcome to post here on the Shirley Thread. It would definitely be good for some debate anyway

Last edited by Nobodyman9; 2009-05-18 at 03:37.
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Old 2009-05-18, 03:05   Link #202
Sol Falling
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Quote:
Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
I'd rep you for that if I could. Nice long post, and I agree with most of it. This confuses me a bit, though:
He did seem to be smiling as he was dying, if only because he's reliving what little happiness he had. The part about hoping for more than remaking the world is also a bit perplexing. What else exactly would he hope for?
This sorta ties in with the disagreements I was talking about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nobodyman9 View Post
Might I say that that was very well thought out, informative, and thought-provoking post you made Sol. You are right though that there are some things that other Shirley fans (myself included) disagree with you about, but that's not to say that your opinion is without merit. I will say though that you raised a very good point about how Shirley was quite possibly the one truth to him that could have saved him from his life of unfaithfulness. This analysis makes it all the more clear to me what Shirley meant with her dying words "I wanted to be the one thing truthful to you".

So could Shirley have saved Lelouch if she survived? Hmm, I suppose it's possible, as you said she was only a "small truth," but she was a truth nonetheless. However, the real, and very sad, truth is that she probably needed to die. If Lelouch was convinced to have faith in the world that could totally change how he went about revolutionizing the world. And that couldn't happen. Lelouch had to be merciless in his tactics and bring down Brittania's tyrannical reign at any cost.

In theory. Now that I'm thinking about it, I guess it's also possible that he could have changed the world through other means. He could have changed the world while still having faith in it. Or perhaps not. I'm really not sure right now.
Yeah, my belief has always been that Lelouch could have changed the world without going down the path of carnage. Lelouch's redeeming theme was 'destruction and reconstruction', but it was still destruction first. The reason Lelouch desired to destroy and rebuild everything was because he believed that the current world had absolutely nothing of worth: he had had everything taken from him so many times that he just gave up trying to save what was already there (what he still had).

A lot of Shirlulu fans (and most non-Shirley fans) accept things like Lelouch's erasure of Shirley's memories as necessary or even redeeming. They think it shows he cares, and accept or even endorse Lelouch's continued path towards destroying 'the world, and even oneself'. My belief in Shirley as something to bring faith back to Lelouch can't accept that, because as much as I understand and even respect Lelouch's final willingness to sacrifice himself, the fact that there was someone there, someone who had tried so hard and wished so strongly to give him his own happiness, makes me believe there must have been some other way.

To answer morbosfist's question above, I percieved Lelouch's dying smile to be a smile of rest. As I said in my previous post, Lelouch had been struggling his whole life against the world: so long as the world which had betrayed him still remained, he could not rest. With Lelouch's dying act, he believed he had finally accomplished his goal of destroying and rebuilding everything, and that was why he was able to lay his head down and close his eyes. What I meant by hoping for more than remaking the world was being able to close his eyes to rest and open them again (i.e. abandon that destructive spirit that would sacrifice his own life in order to destroy the old world completely; understand both that there were still things which were of worth, and that his life was one of them.).

[edit]

Guh, I'm adding some stuff to this. To be more clear: Lelouch being able to close his eyes at rest without dying to destroy/recreate the world means that he understands that it is not his enemy, and that he doesn't have to fight so hard against it. This is ultimately what Shirley's lessons of forgiveness and not abandoning his own happiness would have meant. My premise is that Lelouch could still have changed the world, even without killing millions of people and then sacrificing himself to atone for it.

[/end edit]

I myself don't know exactly how having faith would have changed Lelouch's path. I've tried out various scenarios involving Shirley's survival before (focusing primarily on how the fallout of Shirley's death affected the plot and Lelouch's actions), only to be (possibly :P) legitimately shot down at some point down the chain of events. Nonetheless, it is clear to me that Code Geass would have been a very different show. As such, although I do respect and didenjoy the way the narrative ended up going, I will always believe there was another path.

Quote:
Anyway, I do disagree with you about the reincarnation thing though. Your claims about the "shallowness" of their relationship in R2 may hold some validity (even more so if you went into more detail) but the fact remains that, not only do we think reincarnation was a big part of her character, but so does she and the CG staff. Those were the final words of her dying speech, that no matter how many times she's reborn she will definitely fall in love with Lelouch. Also, although I don't want to get ahead of myself here by defending it before you even go into detail about your claims, but I think part of the reason that Shirley and Lelouch's relationship may have seemed "shallow," as you put it, may have been because the CG staff just didn't have the time to develop it (they messed up a lot of things in R2)

As far as the reincarnation, and them being together in another more peaceful world. Well, I guess we'll never know for sure, but one can dream. I think anyone here can definitely claim that it would or wouldn't happen, and as they would be reincarnated, and by the very nature of reincarnation, the circumstances would be quite different, I'm sure. I think it's entirely possible that it could work between them in a different world, and I think there's more to Shirley's love for Lelouch than her just wanting to be a Good Samaritan to him by rescuing him from the darkness.

And hey, I just wanna say that, whether we agree or not, you're always welcome to post here on the Shirley Thread. It would definitely be good for some debate anyway
Well, I do acknowledge that my beef with the reincarnation theme has a lot to do with Sunrise's execution of it. If it had been done a little better, then perhaps I would be able to accept it now as I did in the past (more out of Shirlulu loyalty than anything). I think the real issue, though, is that I don't believe in fated love and I don't think Lelouch does either. Given the presumed status of Shirley and Lelouch in canon (dead and merged into the collective subconciousness of the World of C), practically speaking, Shirley lied, and her death wasn't actually "okay, right?" -- she wasn't reborn, and she didn't fall in love again. And honestly, even if she were, and they did fall in love, if they didn't have the same memories and feelings that they had in the actual story, that could make me really believe they were the same souls, I just wouldn't have an emotional connection.

I'll partially agree that there's more to Shirlulu than saving Lelouch from the 'darkness'. Shirley's Ashford interactions with him -- for example with the nagging him about gambling, complaining about him sleeping and skipping class, and going after him for being a womanizer -- were very cute, and not quite so serious as the other 'saving' Shirley tried to do. It was even those kind of small interactions that got me interested in 'them' in the first place. However, as I tried to hint at in my previous post, I sorta see all these actions as extensions of that central function -- to make Lelouch a better and happier person by giving him his faith back in the world -- so to me, they are the same thing.

Anyway, on the reincarnation theme again, I did really like the version of it that was that semi-official fanfic about Lelouch's 'ideal world'. It was more touching to me because, rather than a new or different Lelouch, the implication was that this was what the 'true' Lelouch, the first or familiar one, wanted from the depths of his heart. Given what this Lelouch had lost and the endless struggles he had been through, this representation of a restful, quiet life became even more meaningful. That's essentially what I meant about the 'emotional connection': without the memory of all the struggles they had been through, it is more difficult to communicate how much it truly meant for Lelouch and Shirley to be together.

Also, thanks for the warm welcome.
__________________
Seasonal enjoyment ratings:
HappinessCharge Precure 100/5 :: Stardust Crusaders 80/5 :: Mushishi S2 90/5 :: Akuma no Riddle: 15/5 :: Inugami-san to Nekoyama-san 24/5 :: GochiUsa 33/5 :: Soul Eater NOT! 18/5 :: Love Live! S2 80/5
Summer: Sailor Moon Crystal 24/5 :: Hanayamata 30/5 :: Locodol 80/5 :: Yama no Susume 100/5 :: Momo Kyun Sword 11/5
God-tier yuri oneshot mangaka: Minase Ruruu
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Last edited by Sol Falling; 2009-05-18 at 07:25.
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Old 2009-05-18, 16:13   Link #203
darthfury78
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Milly is not even a lesbian, or a bisexual for that matter. She only played around with Shirley out of jealousy for Lelouch. She has no romantic interest for Ravalz or Nina. But she DOES love to play around with Shirley's breasts. Although, I think that Shirley would have PREFERED Lelouch to play with them.
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Old 2009-05-18, 22:55   Link #204
Nobodyman9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Yeah, my belief has always been that Lelouch could have changed the world without going down the path of carnage. Lelouch's redeeming theme was 'destruction and reconstruction', but it was still destruction first. The reason Lelouch desired to destroy and rebuild everything was because he believed that the current world had absolutely nothing of worth: he had had everything taken from him so many times that he just gave up trying to save what was already there (what he still had).

A lot of Shirlulu fans (and most non-Shirley fans) accept things like Lelouch's erasure of Shirley's memories as necessary or even redeeming. They think it shows he cares, and accept or even endorse Lelouch's continued path towards destroying 'the world, and even oneself'. My belief in Shirley as something to bring faith back to Lelouch can't accept that, because as much as I understand and even respect Lelouch's final willingness to sacrifice himself, the fact that there was someone there, someone who had tried so hard and wished so strongly to give him his own happiness, makes me believe there must have been some other way.

To answer morbosfist's question above, I percieved Lelouch's dying smile to be a smile of rest. As I said in my previous post, Lelouch had been struggling his whole life against the world: so long as the world which had betrayed him still remained, he could not rest. With Lelouch's dying act, he believed he had finally accomplished his goal of destroying and rebuilding everything, and that was why he was able to lay his head down and close his eyes. What I meant by hoping for more than remaking the world was being able to close his eyes to rest and open them again (i.e. abandon that destructive spirit that would sacrifice his own life in order to destroy the old world completely; understand both that there were still things which were of worth, and that his life was one of them.).

[edit]

Guh, I'm adding some stuff to this. To be more clear: Lelouch being able to close his eyes at rest without dying to destroy/recreate the world means that he understands that it is not his enemy, and that he doesn't have to fight so hard against it. This is ultimately what Shirley's lessons of forgiveness and not abandoning his own happiness would have meant. My premise is that Lelouch could still have changed the world, even without killing millions of people and then sacrificing himself to atone for it.

[/end edit]

I myself don't know exactly how having faith would have changed Lelouch's path. I've tried out various scenarios involving Shirley's survival before (focusing primarily on how the fallout of Shirley's death affected the plot and Lelouch's actions), only to be (possibly :P) legitimately shot down at some point down the chain of events. Nonetheless, it is clear to me that Code Geass would have been a very different show. As such, although I do respect and didenjoy the way the narrative ended up going, I will always believe there was another path.
Well, if you've read at least a little bit of Shonen, then you probably that it's been so many times that the hero attempts, and usually succeeds, at changing/saving the world without going down the darkside and brings a ray of light to the world. Of course, Code Geass isn't a Shonen series, and we all know that that's not what Sunrise was going for, but if one form of media can do it then it stands to reason that it could work in another media. But as I said, this all goes down to the intentions of the author, and we all know that this intentionally supposed to be a very controversial work with those who sided on Lelouch's tactics and those who didn't. So in all likelyhood, this scenario of Lelouch changing the world and bringing down Britannia through legitimate "faithful" means would never have happened.

Quote:
Well, I do acknowledge that my beef with the reincarnation theme has a lot to do with Sunrise's execution of it. If it had been done a little better, then perhaps I would be able to accept it now as I did in the past (more out of Shirlulu loyalty than anything). I think the real issue, though, is that I don't believe in fated love and I don't think Lelouch does either. Given the presumed status of Shirley and Lelouch in canon (dead and merged into the collective subconciousness of the World of C), practically speaking, Shirley lied, and her death wasn't actually "okay, right?" -- she wasn't reborn, and she didn't fall in love again. And honestly, even if she were, and they did fall in love, if they didn't have the same memories and feelings that they had in the actual story, that could make me really believe they were the same souls, I just wouldn't have an emotional connection.
Well, as you said, that does have a lot to do with what you yourself believe as an individual. Personally, I'm agnostic and I really don't have any idea what happens to us after we die, nor do I strongly believe in anything in particular. The idea of reincarnation does appeal to me though. The idea of another life after death, a fresh start anew and perpetuation of the soul. It helps put my mind at ease.

As far as the fated love thing goes, I really can't say too much since I have practically zero romance experience in real life. However, I am quite the romantic in terms of how I view the world and I personally do believe that fated love can and does exist. Maybe it's not always the case, but it can exist. And I think this is why it's easier for me to except the fated love and reincarnation angle.

Whatever the case me be though, the fact is that this a work of fiction and thus is different from our world and the author can create whatever rules he/she wants for the world. And that being the case, I will gladly go by whatever rules they set forth for the sake of enjoying and analyzing the show (to an extent). I mean, they could make it so that God is a giant spaghetti monster, and if those are the rules than so be it. However, I can see how you might find it hard to follow one of these rules if it goes against one of your beliefs and is negotiable in the interpretive sense. Since you don't believe in fated love I can see how it would affect your view of Shirley and Lelouch's relationship.

Quote:
I'll partially agree that there's more to Shirlulu than saving Lelouch from the 'darkness'. Shirley's Ashford interactions with him -- for example with the nagging him about gambling, complaining about him sleeping and skipping class, and going after him for being a womanizer -- were very cute, and not quite so serious as the other 'saving' Shirley tried to do. It was even those kind of small interactions that got me interested in 'them' in the first place. However, as I tried to hint at in my previous post, I sorta see all these actions as extensions of that central function -- to make Lelouch a better and happier person by giving him his faith back in the world -- so to me, they are the same thing.
See, here's the thing. I'm always reminded of the time when Shirley first started to show interest in Lelouc (the traffic incident) in which he showed his cool, smooth, intelligent and street smart interior as well as a willlingness to help out the little guy. True, Shirley didn't immediately fall for him, but there was something about this that piqued her curiosity about him and it was definately something she liked. While Shirley may have been trying to save Lelouch, I think there was also a sense of admiration and respect for him on Shirley's part that also affected their relationship.

Quote:
Anyway, on the reincarnation theme again, I did really like the version of it that was that semi-official fanfic about Lelouch's 'ideal world'. It was more touching to me because, rather than a new or different Lelouch, the implication was that this was what the 'true' Lelouch, the first or familiar one, wanted from the depths of his heart. Given what this Lelouch had lost and the endless struggles he had been through, this representation of a restful, quiet life became even more meaningful. That's essentially what I meant about the 'emotional connection': without the memory of all the struggles they had been through, it is more difficult to communicate how much it truly meant for Lelouch and Shirley to be together.
Agreed. And I just have to say that, while I do disagree with you on some things, the more I listen to your explanations and analyses, the more I am convinced that Shirley truly was the one that was meant for Lelouch.

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Also, thanks for the warm welcome.
No prob.
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Old 2009-05-19, 05:18   Link #205
Sol Falling
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nobodyman9 View Post
Well, if you've read at least a little bit of Shonen, then you probably that it's been so many times that the hero attempts, and usually succeeds, at changing/saving the world without going down the darkside and brings a ray of light to the world. Of course, Code Geass isn't a Shonen series, and we all know that that's not what Sunrise was going for, but if one form of media can do it then it stands to reason that it could work in another media. But as I said, this all goes down to the intentions of the author, and we all know that this intentionally supposed to be a very controversial work with those who sided on Lelouch's tactics and those who didn't. So in all likelyhood, this scenario of Lelouch changing the world and bringing down Britannia through legitimate "faithful" means would never have happened.
I do agree that Code Geass was meant to be a provocative story, so the path it went down was no doubt the one it had always intended to take. However, I don't see Zero Requiem versus Shirley surviving in as sharp contrast as darkness and light, because even in the former, Lelouch learned not to hate the world anyway (the truth about his mother and father forced him to confront the fact that the world was not always against him). The difference was, by that point in time, the conflict Lelouch had fanned and initiated had destroyed so much and taken so much from him that there was nothing to hold his life back. However, had Lelouch learned this lesson earlier, there might still have been something left to save, and he would have survived. That's why, for me the decision between Shirley's life and Lelouch's death has only been a matter of whether or not it was too late, and I find the choice of the latter to be needlessly pessimistic.

Quote:
Well, as you said, that does have a lot to do with what you yourself believe as an individual. Personally, I'm agnostic and I really don't have any idea what happens to us after we die, nor do I strongly believe in anything in particular. The idea of reincarnation does appeal to me though. The idea of another life after death, a fresh start anew and perpetuation of the soul. It helps put my mind at ease.

As far as the fated love thing goes, I really can't say too much since I have practically zero romance experience in real life. However, I am quite the romantic in terms of how I view the world and I personally do believe that fated love can and does exist. Maybe it's not always the case, but it can exist. And I think this is why it's easier for me to except the fated love and reincarnation angle.

Whatever the case me be though, the fact is that this a work of fiction and thus is different from our world and the author can create whatever rules he/she wants for the world. And that being the case, I will gladly go by whatever rules they set forth for the sake of enjoying and analyzing the show (to an extent). I mean, they could make it so that God is a giant spaghetti monster, and if those are the rules than so be it. However, I can see how you might find it hard to follow one of these rules if it goes against one of your beliefs and is negotiable in the interpretive sense. Since you don't believe in fated love I can see how it would affect your view of Shirley and Lelouch's relationship.
Hmm, although I did say I don't believe in fated love, I suppose that wasn't really my point. The thing I was trying to get across was that it was only Shirley who believed in reincarnation. So in this case it isn't quite a matter of believing in fictional rules set by the author, but the author not justifying the beliefs of a character.

In the end, Shirley's dying words didn't help anybody. Lelouch never saw her again, and her death only pushed him further along the path of carnage. That the authors made Shirley die believing in something so useless, is to me an affront to her character. This is part of what I meant when I called her R2 characterization shallow: with the exception of maybe one scene (the Turn 7 wish on the fireworks), Shirley's words did not achieve anything.

The way I see it, the 'reincarnation' theme, which was Shirley exclusive, and never actually impacted the main plot, was just crumbs thrown out for us shippers. The fact that it died with Shirley, and never reappeared again, makes it completely half-assed, and that's why I can't really celebrate it as one of the high points of the show.

The other idea, about people saying 'if Lelouch and Shirley were in another world...', is I now realize a completely separate issue. But I've already made my points on that. I don't believe it was fated, and I don't believe it was inevitable, for Lelouch and Shirley to have failed in the original Code Geass world. Rather, I believe they were on the verge of succeeding, and could very well have made it. That's why I don't really like the defeatist tone of 'in another world...' when there was still so much meaning and potential in the original one. :P I dunno if that'll actually convince anybody though, and nobody is saying that right now anyway, so I guess I'll shut up now. My actual issue with 'reincarnation' in the show itself is its execution.

Quote:
See, here's the thing. I'm always reminded of the time when Shirley first started to show interest in Lelouc (the traffic incident) in which he showed his cool, smooth, intelligent and street smart interior as well as a willlingness to help out the little guy. True, Shirley didn't immediately fall for him, but there was something about this that piqued her curiosity about him and it was definately something she liked. While Shirley may have been trying to save Lelouch, I think there was also a sense of admiration and respect for him on Shirley's part that also affected their relationship.
Mm, I get your main point here, and that is that there was more to Shirley's feelings than just a desire to help. With regards to the traffic incident, it took me quite a while to do it (until that first huge post actually), but I think I finally nailed what it was that intrigued Shirley about it. Like I said then, the thing that drew Shirley to Lelouch was his lack of faith in the world as a place for him, which was expressed by his disinterested attitude and boredom. What the traffic incident served to emphasize, bored face and all, was that it wasn't that Lelouch couldn't interact with the world, and maybe not even that he didn't want to, but that something was holding him back. Shirley did not appreciate Lelouch's cool/smooth aloofness, thought his use of his intelligence and street smarts was misdirected, and could only see a hint of his willingness to defend the weak, so I'm not all too sure she admired or respected him. However, she did want to see past that bored disinterestedness, and understand the path he was walking on, so she knew he had the potential to be someone she did. As such, I think her desire to save him, and attempts to get through to him, were very much to her own benefit as well.

Quote:
Agreed. And I just have to say that, while I do disagree with you on some things, the more I listen to your explanations and analyses, the more I am convinced that Shirley truly was the one that was meant for Lelouch.
Heh, indeed. That Shirley was the one Lelouch was meant to be with is the most important thing.
__________________
Seasonal enjoyment ratings:
HappinessCharge Precure 100/5 :: Stardust Crusaders 80/5 :: Mushishi S2 90/5 :: Akuma no Riddle: 15/5 :: Inugami-san to Nekoyama-san 24/5 :: GochiUsa 33/5 :: Soul Eater NOT! 18/5 :: Love Live! S2 80/5
Summer: Sailor Moon Crystal 24/5 :: Hanayamata 30/5 :: Locodol 80/5 :: Yama no Susume 100/5 :: Momo Kyun Sword 11/5
God-tier yuri oneshot mangaka: Minase Ruruu
Yuri Precure otaku manga: Shinozaki-san ki wo ota shika ni
Awesome shoujo manga: Last Game
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Old 2009-05-19, 06:20   Link #206
yezhanquan
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Personally, I was for Lelouch going alone all the way. As with most men of revolution, his job endangers those whom he loved, or at least cared for.

After Shirley was gone, Rolo too goes down. Either someone really hates Lelouch, or he should think through his plans.
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Last edited by yezhanquan; 2009-05-19 at 06:36.
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Old 2009-05-19, 22:31   Link #207
Nobodyman9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
I do agree that Code Geass was meant to be a provocative story, so the path it went down was no doubt the one it had always intended to take. However, I don't see Zero Requiem versus Shirley surviving in as sharp contrast as darkness and light, because even in the former, Lelouch learned not to hate the world anyway (the truth about his mother and father forced him to confront the fact that the world was not always against him). The difference was, by that point in time, the conflict Lelouch had fanned and initiated had destroyed so much and taken so much from him that there was nothing to hold his life back. However, had Lelouch learned this lesson earlier, there might still have been something left to save, and he would have survived. That's why, for me the decision between Shirley's life and Lelouch's death has only been a matter of whether or not it was too late, and I find the choice of the latter to be needlessly pessimistic.
"Needlessly pessimistic"? Hmm, yeah that pretty much describes Code Geass Seriously though, you do make a good point. I'm not sure how much I agree with you about Lelouch learning not to hate the world, since I'm really not sure what my stance on that is anyway (his final words were "I will destroy and create worlds") But yeah, I would love to have seen Shirley make Lelouch see the light sooner and for him to find a better solution and bring world peace. And then, you know, for them to make Halloween babies (you know, Orange and Black)

Quote:
Hmm, although I did say I don't believe in fated love, I suppose that wasn't really my point. The thing I was trying to get across was that it was only Shirley who believed in reincarnation. So in this case it isn't quite a matter of believing in fictional rules set by the author, but the author not justifying the beliefs of a character.

In the end, Shirley's dying words didn't help anybody. Lelouch never saw her again, and her death only pushed him further along the path of carnage. That the authors made Shirley die believing in something so useless, is to me an affront to her character. This is part of what I meant when I called her R2 characterization shallow: with the exception of maybe one scene (the Turn 7 wish on the fireworks), Shirley's words did not achieve anything.

The way I see it, the 'reincarnation' theme, which was Shirley exclusive, and never actually impacted the main plot, was just crumbs thrown out for us shippers. The fact that it died with Shirley, and never reappeared again, makes it completely half-assed, and that's why I can't really celebrate it as one of the high points of the show.
Well, it is true that the reincarnation theme was never brought up again, but I like to believe that that wasn't put in there for no reason. I think there may have been credence to what Shirley said, it's just that the staff didn't want to declare anything as absolute. I think it was meant to give the fans hope. But still, as you said, that probably is pretty close to them just throwing crumbs at us.

I agree with you as much as anyone though that O&T screwed Shirley's character far up the ass. And for that...

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The other idea, about people saying 'if Lelouch and Shirley were in another world...', is I now realize a completely separate issue. But I've already made my points on that. I don't believe it was fated, and I don't believe it was inevitable, for Lelouch and Shirley to have failed in the original Code Geass world. Rather, I believe they were on the verge of succeeding, and could very well have made it. That's why I don't really like the defeatist tone of 'in another world...' when there was still so much meaning and potential in the original one. :P I dunno if that'll actually convince anybody though, and nobody is saying that right now anyway, so I guess I'll shut up now. My actual issue with 'reincarnation' in the show itself is its execution.
Oh I hear ya buddy. I hear ya completely. Now, as I said before, I'm not totally sold on any one fait or ideal so I'm not sure if I believe in fate or if we can decide our destinies, but I think it's probably a bit of both. That being said, I'm totally for the idea that Lelouch and Shirley could've had something if things had gone differently in R2. I think it's fun to imagine that they could have been together in their current lives, just as I think it's fun to imagine that they could be together in another life.

Here's the thing though. Shirley died, and that is set in stone. What happened, happened. Yes, you can imagine what could've been in Code Geass if Shirley had survived and all that, but as you said before it's very hard to imagine something like that without encountering a blockade. Now lets take reincarnation. Shirley herself preached the idea of it and thus that gives us, as fans, a very open opportunity to imagine that they could be together in another life. Plus, it's a lot easier for us to imagine something like this since it's stricly up to our own imaginations and the circumstances and rules we create for their next life. And hey, nobody can prove that it won't happen.

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Mm, I get your main point here, and that is that there was more to Shirley's feelings than just a desire to help. With regards to the traffic incident, it took me quite a while to do it (until that first huge post actually), but I think I finally nailed what it was that intrigued Shirley about it. Like I said then, the thing that drew Shirley to Lelouch was his lack of faith in the world as a place for him, which was expressed by his disinterested attitude and boredom. What the traffic incident served to emphasize, bored face and all, was that it wasn't that Lelouch couldn't interact with the world, and maybe not even that he didn't want to, but that something was holding him back. Shirley did not appreciate Lelouch's cool/smooth aloofness, thought his use of his intelligence and street smarts was misdirected, and could only see a hint of his willingness to defend the weak, so I'm not all too sure she admired or respected him. However, she did want to see past that bored disinterestedness, and understand the path he was walking on, so she knew he had the potential to be someone she did. As such, I think her desire to save him, and attempts to get through to him, were very much to her own benefit as well.
Hmm, well again you're able to reinforce your point, but lets get to the root of this. The way you describe the way Shirley feel towards Lelouch I, personally, have trouble accepting. You keep insisting that the reason Shirley fell in love with Lelouch was because of the Good Samaritan bit where she wants to help Lelouch and restore his faith in the world. But personally, I don't see how that alone can lead to and be considered true love. If you want to help somebody, fine, that's all well and good, but I don't think that alone constitutes romantic love for that person. The way I see it, a person usually falls in love with someone because there's something about that person that really appeals to them. There must be something that Shirley saw about Lelouch that she really liked, something that made her believe that this was the man for her, something more than just her wanting to help him.

Hmm, I think I may need to give this matter a little more thought.

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Heh, indeed. That Shirley was the one Lelouch was meant to be with is the most important thing.
Amen brother
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Old 2009-05-20, 00:01   Link #208
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Now, the thing is, if Lelouch never appeared in Shirley's life, what would that mean to her? Would she be happier?

Still, I find it quite interesting that she only had eyes on Lelouch. Rivalz is there (although let's face it: I won't date him even if I'm a girl), Suzaku is a Japanese (11 if you will), and there seems to be no other boys around.
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Old 2009-05-20, 01:38   Link #209
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Now, the thing is, if Lelouch never appeared in Shirley's life, what would that mean to her? Would she be happier?

Still, I find it quite interesting that she only had eyes on Lelouch. Rivalz is there (although let's face it: I won't date him even if I'm a girl), Suzaku is a Japanese (11 if you will), and there seems to be no other boys around.
I've said it before, I'll say it again.

Shirley is a Lulusexual. She'd probably go after Luluko, at that.
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Old 2009-05-20, 01:56   Link #210
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Now, the thing is, if Lelouch never appeared in Shirley's life, what would that mean to her? Would she be happier?

Still, I find it quite interesting that she only had eyes on Lelouch. Rivalz is there (although let's face it: I won't date him even if I'm a girl), Suzaku is a Japanese (11 if you will), and there seems to be no other boys around.
Hmm, well I'm sure her life would be a lot more simpler, maybe not necessarily happier. Of course she almost certainly would have lived a long life, but knowing her, I'm sure she thinks it was worth it just to have known Lelouch

Actually, I always did notice that there weren't a lot of boys in the SC (you know that weren't knee-deep in emotional and world changing dilemmas) But hey, Suzaku and Shirley did have that topping scene.

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I've said it before, I'll say it again.

Shirley is a Lulusexual. She'd probably go after Luluko, at that.
LOL. That's a good way to put it.
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Old 2009-05-20, 02:33   Link #211
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ShirleyX Luluko: Now, that is a very interesting pairing.
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Old 2009-05-20, 02:36   Link #212
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ShirleyX Luluko: Now, that is a very interesting pairing.
Ooh, now you have me intrigued. Well, according to Rule 34 it must exist somewhere.

Ah, Shirley would even become a lesbian for Lelouch.
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Old 2009-05-20, 02:47   Link #213
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I'll like it to remain at the Romantic 2 Girl relationship level.
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Old 2009-05-20, 02:56   Link #214
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I'll like it to remain at the Romantic 2 Girl relationship level.
Regrettably, Rule 34 may be the only way we ever will see it Well, it'll be hard to find regardless of intensity level.
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Old 2009-05-20, 03:00   Link #215
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Milly: Ah, I see that the couple is going about their daily walk.
Lulu: Is that sour grapes from the President? A rare treat indeed.
Shirley: .....
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Old 2009-05-20, 03:07   Link #216
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Milly: Ah, I see that the couple is going about their daily walk.
Lulu: Is that sour grapes from the President? A rare treat indeed.
Shirley: .....
Watchu talkin' about?

Anyway, in my quest for ShirleyxLuluko, I stumbled upon a pleasant little PD that I didn't even know existed. The 9.33 one, the Cross-dressing Festival. Yes, that was quite entertaining (Honest to God, are these kids on ecstasy? ) Ah, but not even any ShirleyxLuluko to show for it.
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Old 2009-05-20, 03:08   Link #217
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It was a gag situation where Milly caught Luluko and Shirley together. Came off the top of my head.
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Old 2009-05-20, 03:11   Link #218
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It was a gag situation where Milly caught Luluko and Shirley together. came off the top of my head.
Ah, I see. Somehow it sounded familiar, like actual dialogue from the show.
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Old 2009-05-20, 06:51   Link #219
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"Needlessly pessimistic"? Hmm, yeah that pretty much describes Code Geass Seriously though, you do make a good point. I'm not sure how much I agree with you about Lelouch learning not to hate the world, since I'm really not sure what my stance on that is anyway (his final words were "I will destroy and create worlds") But yeah, I would love to have seen Shirley make Lelouch see the light sooner and for him to find a better solution and bring world peace. And then, you know, for them to make Halloween babies (you know, Orange and Black)
lol Halloween babies, nice.

About Lelouch not hating the world, it's true he never got over his 'spirit of destruction'. Even Lelouch's desire for tomorrow, I think, was grounded in a dissatisfaction with the present. Still, by the end of the series, I think Lelouch had finally moved onto the 'reconstruction' part of it. Lelouch's desire for destruction, previously, had always been motivated by the pain of his loss and betrayals. He hated his father, could not forget his mother, and wanted retribution for all that had been taken from him. However, by his death, destruction was no longer something he partook in for its own sake, but only a necessary step towards his true aim: the building of a new tomorrow.

Destruction is always necessary for (major) reconstruction. This I can't argue. However, not all destruction contributes meaningfully towards reconstruction. While the reforms, freeing of areas, and displacement of nobility Lelouch engaged in as part of Zero Requiem contributed the creation of his new world, stuff like killing Clovis, Lelouch's disposal of the JLF in Stage 13, his initial opposition to the SAZ, and the Geass Cult massecre did not (more personal examples include Lelouch's erasure of Shirley's memories, his decision to use Rolo like a rag, and his desire to have Suzaku killed in Turn 17). These are essentially what we could consider Lelouch's mistakes, and the ones that occured between Turn 14 and Turn 20 are what Shirley's faith could have potentially prevented.

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Oh I hear ya buddy. I hear ya completely. Now, as I said before, I'm not totally sold on any one fait or ideal so I'm not sure if I believe in fate or if we can decide our destinies, but I think it's probably a bit of both. That being said, I'm totally for the idea that Lelouch and Shirley could've had something if things had gone differently in R2. I think it's fun to imagine that they could have been together in their current lives, just as I think it's fun to imagine that they could be together in another life.

Here's the thing though. Shirley died, and that is set in stone. What happened, happened. Yes, you can imagine what could've been in Code Geass if Shirley had survived and all that, but as you said before it's very hard to imagine something like that without encountering a blockade. Now lets take reincarnation. Shirley herself preached the idea of it and thus that gives us, as fans, a very open opportunity to imagine that they could be together in another life. Plus, it's a lot easier for us to imagine something like this since it's stricly up to our own imaginations and the circumstances and rules we create for their next life. And hey, nobody can prove that it won't happen.
I guess there is the fun in it, and you don't have to bother with debating the other ships. I suppose I'm just not done arguing yet (more like, feeling argumentative; as I haven't yet actually gone out and started any arguments), though I guess that does make it wrong to complain about fellow fans.

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Hmm, well again you're able to reinforce your point, but lets get to the root of this. The way you describe the way Shirley feel towards Lelouch I, personally, have trouble accepting. You keep insisting that the reason Shirley fell in love with Lelouch was because of the Good Samaritan bit where she wants to help Lelouch and restore his faith in the world. But personally, I don't see how that alone can lead to and be considered true love. If you want to help somebody, fine, that's all well and good, but I don't think that alone constitutes romantic love for that person. The way I see it, a person usually falls in love with someone because there's something about that person that really appeals to them. There must be something that Shirley saw about Lelouch that she really liked, something that made her believe that this was the man for her, something more than just her wanting to help him.

Hmm, I think I may need to give this matter a little more thought.
Hm, :P well you've got me a bit wrong there. I do think it was Lelouch's lack of faith which intrigued Shirley and drew her to him, but I don't necessarily think it was what made her fall in love. To be honest I haven't spent all that much time on that specific either, so I guess I'll also have to give that a bit of thought.

Well to start off with, what we're talking about here is what constitutes romantic love, right? I'm not too sure I can agree on the 'appeals' requirement, at least in terms of a strictly self-expressing or positive trait. For example, I could make the argument that Lelouch appeals to Shirley because he 'needs' her to save him: this aspect certainly appeared in Turn 12 (at the start of the butthat race). I'm not too sure this kind of 'appeal' is what you had in mind, though.

For one thing, though, I think Shirley finds it fairly easy to get along with anybody. Although I only have her quick acceptance (:P as we all like to point out , she was the first one) of Suzaku as concrete evidence, Shirley is a friendly and not very qualifying girl (she even dislikes Lelouch for being 'stuck up'). As such, I don't think Shirley is necessarily looking for 'appealing' qualities, and while Lelouch certainly has some (good looks, intelligence, dramatic flair, or even popularity), those are nowhere near the focus of her attention on him. Also, as for the qualities in people which might actually seem to matter to Shirley (kindness, friendliness, interestingness or sincerity) none of these are the sort of things which would qualify for romantic attraction. So I really think that Lelouch's appeal for Shirley might be some sort of selective-response or essentially Shirley-exclusive trait like I mentioned above ('needing' her to save him).

On the other hand, although you've brought up 'appeal', another aspect of love might be desire. In terms of this, I think the most relevant example would be Stage 12, where Shirley's kiss and calls for Lelouch to save her were an expression of her desire for Lelouch to be kind to her. As for that, we have to think 'why his kindness?', and I think the answer is 'because Lelouch's kindness is rare'. However, on this count we also have 'on account of his disinterestedness in the world' so this leads again to Lelouch's faithlessness. So that's why, although I agree that there was more to Shirley's love than simply a 'Good Samaritan' desire to save him, I think that ultimately, the root and cause of the things which appealed to Shirley about Lelouch and made her desire him was his underlying lack of faith.

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Originally Posted by yezhanquan View Post
Now, the thing is, if Lelouch never appeared in Shirley's life, what would that mean to her? Would she be happier?
Well, Shirley is a happy person, so I'm sure she may have found love, etc. eventually. However, I think the trials Shirley went through for Lelouch also taught her a lot in becoming her own person. So I don't think Shirley would ever choose to not have met Lelouch, and it was certainly the Shirley who did, and as a result came to determine so powerfully to forgive and chase after happiness, that I am a fan of.

Anyway, here is an essay I ran across and remembered in response to this question. It characterizes quite strongly Shirley's trials as a coming of age story. To be honest, I quite disagree with some of it (Shirley's love could hardly be called blind and uncriticizing when so much of it was about changing Lelouch to believe in his own happiness) but it is still a good read (it is a dual analysis on Euphie as well):

http://realms-of-life.livejournal.com/47180.html

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Still, I find it quite interesting that she only had eyes on Lelouch. Rivalz is there (although let's face it: I won't date him even if I'm a girl), Suzaku is a Japanese (11 if you will), and there seems to be no other boys around.
This question is highlighted by how friendly she is with those other people. As I mentioned above in my discussion of Lelouch's appeal, and also other analyses, I think it was Lelouch's particular brand of unfriendliness that really did it.
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Old 2009-05-20, 07:33   Link #220
yezhanquan
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Wait. So, Shirley is a bit of a masochist? Hey....

Milly treats her like a toy (at times), Lelouch is cold to her...

I find my understanding of her decreasing.
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