Character Discussion - Shirley

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by Tr3adst0ne

Some of the art on the cover looks familiar... Anyone know who the artist is?

I'm not 100% sure, but I believe it's this artist, called WindRoad.

http://windroad.thyme.jp/

He/she's my personal favorite Shirlulu artist, so it's a shame that he/she hasn't updated in quite some time.

[Lost Cause]

I don't know if it has been asked yet or not, but what if Shirley had lived? What outcome if any would her "being there" had on the story? And what if she had joined the Black Knights? This is purely speculation but I'd like to hear y'alls coments and ideas!

[Knightrunner]

Originally Posted by Lost Cause

I don't know if it has been asked yet or not, but what if Shirley had lived? What outcome if any would her "being there" had on the story? And what if she had joined the Black Knights? This is purely speculation but I'd like to hear y'alls coments and ideas!

The geass cult might not have happen actually which could help increse Zero's standing when he got betrayed in episode 18. Once he controls the Geass cult then he will have an entire secret army with geass powers in his side.

As for being a black knight member it would be far fetch from Shirley joining but she can be encouragement. The thing is though I think the other black knight members might look down or think negativly in Shirley. Kallen will definately protect her since she does not hold a grudge against nina.

[Arbitres]

Originally Posted by Lost Cause

I don't know if it has been asked yet or not, but what if Shirley had lived? What outcome if any would her "being there" had on the story? And what if she had joined the Black Knights? This is purely speculation but I'd like to hear y'alls coments and ideas!

You. have. No. Idea how many times I thought up the scenarios. From reading Eternal Dreamers Read Me, I have to guess he has thought about it too (As an example different individuals have thought and may have brought it up. Sorry for using you ED )

1. She might be geassed to forget Lelouch. Jeremiah's cancellation can annul the 'one use' rule, allowing Lelouch to use it again (Remember that LIVE! LIVE! LIVE! command? He already used his geass on her, so she shouldn't have rings around her eyes. But she did.)

2. She wouldn't join the black knights. No -- rather she would support Lelouch from the back stage by helping him keeping his secret. She might be able to support him in information or information broker. She might actually destro evidence of him being Zero as well. She doesn't like killing, so she wouldn't do it... She is far too innocent.

3. She would go on being the student council member Shirley Fenette, being the only one with knowledge of Lelouch as Zero. (Lelouch's and Charles geass being cancelled simultaneously. Guess what? Memory returned and memory no longer false.)

4. If she did join the Black Knights, she would be right there with Kallen protecting him at the betrayal. But this is speculation as it wouldn't have happened -- Lelouch was going to run the directorate, not destroy it. It being destroyed caused skepticism about him, thus creating the ambers that would create the blaze of turncoats.

5. She wouldn't be allowed to join, Lelouch not wanting to put her in danger.


That is what I got. If I might be a bit off topic Lost Cause, that is a nice Saber avi X3

Ahem... Anyways, thats all~ Hope it helped.. Or something. Whichever comes first.

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by Lost Cause

I don't know if it has been asked yet or not, but what if Shirley had lived? What outcome if any would her "being there" had on the story? And what if she had joined the Black Knights? This is purely speculation but I'd like to hear y'alls coments and ideas!

Oh, trust me LC, this topic has been debated to a great extent many times before But that doesn't mean we can't debate it again

Anyway, I would like to believe that if Shirley had survived it would've made a major impact and made great changes to the series. I mean, I guess Lelouch could always wipe her memory like he did in Season 1, but that would be boring (plus, even if she was just still alive it would probably make things quite different).

I don't really see Shirley becoming a full-fledged Black Knight, but rather someone that could help Lelouch on the sidelines. Remember that Shirley wanted to be the one thing truthful to him, so I think she could fulfill this role quite nicely as being one of the few, if not the only person, that Lelouch could trust. Sol made a really nice argument about this a little while ago about how if Shirley had lived things would have turned out a lot and ZR would have never happened since her death was a major contribution to it.

But yeah, the Cult Massacre would never have happened, making it far less likely that the BKs would have betrayed him, and I'm sure Lelouch would've been far less angsty and downtrodden during the second half of R2. As for the ending, who knows? Maybe Lelouch would've still become emperor (a benevolent one, of course) and would've taken Shirley as his consort or maybe he would've lived a normal life with Shirley as his wife Whatever the case, as long as he's with Shirley.

[DragoZERO]

I really wish I was here when Geass was airing, I missed out on a lot of good discussion. Bummer. Anyway...

Originally Posted by Lost Cause

I don't know if it has been asked yet or not, but what if Shirley had lived? What outcome if any would her "being there" had on the story? And what if she had joined the Black Knights? This is purely speculation but I'd like to hear y'alls coments and ideas!

Shirley symbolized Lelouch's 'future.'

Spoiler for R2:

and if she had lived, I don't think he would have gone down the same road and sacrificed himself.

[Arbitres]

Oh, I like you DragoZERO. You've missed on the debate you most certainly know what Shirley was.

Me? I believe Shirley was the avatar of Lelouch's choices. Read inbetween what he and she did, and it's obvious the feeling behind both of them. It's just.... One died telling how she felt about the other.

Still.. Both Mao and Rolo were victims, but I'm still trying to fathom why the creators had to torture Shirley so..

[Sol Falling]

Bringing up Mao is interesting. The thing is, I had already forgiven Mao by his death in S1 because I saw Lelouch's own actions, by erasing Shirley's memories of him, as the real betrayal/tragedy. However, Lelouch's attitude in this instance becomes consistent with his later reaction to Shirley's death, where he decides to eliminate the Geass cult, again blaming an external enemy. Whether it was the loss of Shirley's memories or Shirley's death, in both cases Lelouch ended up becoming a perpertrator rather than a victim.

That is to say, to answer your question: the reason the creators tortured Shirley was to make Lelouch commit tragedies which he couldn't take back. Code Geass is simply quite a tragedy all around.

[Arbitres]

TY TY, you've yet again helped me Sol. Though I already knew the tragedy all around part, it would make sense for them to use a character to their fullest. That is what a story generally is about, afterall.

Furthermore, I am glad you brought it up. On the basis of Shirley not dying and Lelouch still wiping out the geass cult? How would that become fruition (This discussion will be moved to the generic discussion to remain on topic, since it strays away from Shirley quite a bit.)

[azul120]

Lelouch wiping Shirley's memories was an act of mercy, relatively speaking, given how traumatized she had been, particularly by Mao. Once Mao started screwing with her, there was practically no turning back.

Lelouch going killbot on the Geass Cult following Shirley's death was a typical costly overreaction for himself.

Shirley was definitely a Hope Spot for Lelouch.

[darkdarkdark]

Originally Posted by Arbitres

TY TY, you've yet again helped me Sol. Though I already knew the tragedy all around part, it would make sense for them to use a character to their fullest. That is what a story generally is about, afterall.

Furthermore, I am glad you brought it up. On the basis of Shirley not dying and Lelouch still wiping out the geass cult? How would that become fruition (This discussion will be moved to the generic discussion to remain on topic, since it strays away from Shirley quite a bit.)

Well, something very tragic needed to happen to advance the plot, thus they killed Shirley. I guess it didn't necessarily need to be Shirley who died, but she was pretty close to Lelouch. I couldn't imagine who else they would kill off in a situation like this for Lelouch to have burning passion to eliminate the order.

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by Arbitres

Oh, I like you DragoZERO. You've missed on the debate you most certainly know what Shirley was.

Me? I believe Shirley was the avatar of Lelouch's choices. Read inbetween what he and she did, and it's obvious the feeling behind both of them. It's just.... One died telling how she felt about the other.

Still.. Both Mao and Rolo were victims, but I'm still trying to fathom why the creators had to torture Shirley so..

I forget a lot about what happened with Mao, but was really mad over Rolo. I was waiting for him to get what he had coming to him, I don't care why he did it.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Bringing up Mao is interesting. The thing is, I had already forgiven Mao by his death in S1 because I saw Lelouch's own actions, by erasing Shirley's memories of him, as the real betrayal/tragedy. However, Lelouch's attitude in this instance becomes consistent with his later reaction to Shirley's death, where he decides to eliminate the Geass cult, again blaming an external enemy. Whether it was the loss of Shirley's memories or Shirley's death, in both cases Lelouch ended up becoming a perpertrator rather than a victim.

That is to say, to answer your question: the reason the creators tortured Shirley was to make Lelouch commit tragedies which he couldn't take back. Code Geass is simply quite a tragedy all around.

Shirley's fate was not Lelouch's fault. He had to take his rage out somewhere though.

Originally Posted by azul120

Lelouch wiping Shirley's memories was an act of mercy, relatively speaking, given how traumatized she had been, particularly by Mao. Once Mao started screwing with her, there was practically no turning back.

Yeah, I forget what Mao did, but giving Shirley back her "normal days" was not mean or anything. I think Lelouch did the right thing then.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by azul120

Lelouch wiping Shirley's memories was an act of mercy, relatively speaking, given how traumatized she had been, particularly by Mao. Once Mao started screwing with her, there was practically no turning back.

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

Yeah, I forget what Mao did, but giving Shirley back her "normal days" was not mean or anything. I think Lelouch did the right thing then.

This is taking an external perspective. Whether or not Shirley was objectively happier returning to her 'normal days', and forgetting everything she had been told by Mao, Shirley's emotional plea of "Lulu, don't!!!" just before Lelouch' wiped her memories spoke for itself.

Shirley's memory-wipe was partially karmic on her part. Part of her 'pitiable girl' behaviour was frankly an act, because, as she admitted, she just wanted Lelouch to be kind to her. Beyond the death of her father, and the revelation that Lelouch was Zero, it was simply the truth that her Lulu, her feelings for him, were more important than any of that. What I'm saying is that Shirley wasn't too traumatized to ever be happy again, or anything like that--she was only acting that way because all she wanted was Lelouch's kind words and forgiveness. That's why she could have received no worse punishment than to have her memories of him stripped entirely. And that is also why Lelouch doing so can be considered no real act of kindness; rather it must ultimately be described as an act of self-convenience.

Shirley's fate was not Lelouch's fault. He had to take his rage out somewhere though.

I feel Shirley's death was symptomatic of Lelouch's fallacy in general. Lelouch hated/wanted to destroy Britannia because he felt like it had stripped everything away from him. By treating Britannia as an enemy, however, he ended up losing even more. Similarly, Lelouch hated Rolo/wanted to 'use him like a rag' because he felt like he had stripped Nunally away from him. Because Rolo could sense that Lelouch's brotherly act was insincere, however, he became paranoid over Nunally. It was thus Rolo's insecurity over his relationship with Lelouch that caused the death of Shirley--it was Lelouch's hate for someone who wasn't really his enemy that caused him to lose yet another person that he loved.

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by Arbitres

Still.. Both Mao and Rolo were victims, but I'm still trying to fathom why the creators had to torture Shirley so..

I guess they were going for pathos, but instead it came off as misogynistic.

...Or who knows? Maybe they were going for misogyny.

As for the Lelouch wiping Shirley's memories debate. Well, I'm kind of in the middle in that I don't think it was a cruel act, but it wasn't exactly a generous or noble act either. I mean, I know Lelouch had good intentions in mind, but it was a very half-baked and quick fix to the problem. Also, this could show evidence that Lelouch had a tendency of self-loathing, as he believed that the best way to help someone was to erase his existence from that person.

Would she have been better off if Lelouch hadn't geassed her? Hard to say. I mean, she did get her memories back and she eventually was able to come to terms with it (one attempted building jump later ^_^; ) So yeah, I think if Lelouch and Shirley had talked it over she probably would've been all right, but alas Sunrise hates its characters.

[Ten-Go]

Father's death instead of happy school days, strange "geass" stuff and ongoing war instead of funny and cute situations (possibly with giant speaking cats involved), bullet instead of love and joy - I just feel sorry for that girl, it looks like someone has mistaken and implementend her in the wrong universe... I wonder why they did it all with her when they had tons of ready-to-die characters like IJA-designed Kyoshiro Tohdoh. Yes, contrast is a form of art, good commercial move, interesting add to the story, but killing her is cruel. Maybe script writers are against swimming or something...

[Arbitres]

They needed to put Shirley into the CLANNAD universe, then.

It could be worse, they could've put Shirley in the Texhnolyze universe.

But yes, they definitely screwed with her quite a bit. She was quite innocent, and she went through the crap she did.

Still... It seemed more like misogyny, to me at least. Even though we could speculate about what could've ('should have' being too bravado for my taste.) it leads to the same conclusion: speculation.

It's too bad, but it's true. Shirley died -- canonically. She passed on and will most likely remain dead. Her death was indeed material for the show, but that doesn't really justifies it in my opinion.

Just like Ten-Go said, a lot of characters were ready to die. But most of them weren't even aware of Lelouch's identity as Zero, let alot close to him for them to have an effect on him. (only one? Kallen. But that would be just as bad as Shirley dying... Even more so because it's Kallen. )

Just be glad for the time she was alive?

[Rei.K]

Characters are meant to be tools serving the plot anyway.
As a fan of the character, I was really sad Shirley died, but that doesn't mean she can't keep on living as a character. This thread is enough of a proof.
Aerith from FF7 anyone ? It's been more than 10 years and people are still talking about her. Death means nothing for a great character

[Arbitres]

I guess your right.

And people are still talking about Aerith because of all the remakes of FF7... Advent Children, Crisis Core.. some anime adaptions/OVA's too. Off topic though.

It's just... Did Shirley really have to die? It was all very tragic. Then again... That is 'Code Geass in a nut shell' a friend of mine recently said. Believe me, he does awesome snippets

Anyways... Shirley was an innocent character and I felt compelled to like her more after the Mao-encholy events. Though her role was increased in R2, it really didn't help to know Lelouch pretty much killed troves of people in her name.

yeah Lelouch, that is what she wanted you to do all along. Do a massacre in retaliation of her death. Good going, +rep for that... :/

[azul120]

Personally I thought Aerith was overrated as a character, just because she hadn't connected in that same kind of way. (General Leo from FF6 was much more tragic for my money.)

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by Arbitres

But yes, they definitely screwed with her quite a bit. She was quite innocent, and she went through the crap she did.

Still... It seemed more like misogyny, to me at least. Even though we could speculate about what could've ('should have' being too bravado for my taste.) it leads to the same conclusion: speculation.

It's too bad, but it's true. Shirley died -- canonically. She passed on and will most likely remain dead. Her death was indeed material for the show, but that doesn't really justifies it in my opinion.

Just like Ten-Go said, a lot of characters were ready to die. But most of them weren't even aware of Lelouch's identity as Zero, let alot close to him for them to have an effect on him. (only one? Kallen. But that would be just as bad as Shirley dying... Even more so because it's Kallen. )

Just be glad for the time she was alive?

It has nothing to do with misogyny. She was a tragic heroine, that's all.

Originally Posted by Rei.K

Characters are meant to be tools serving the plot anyway.
As a fan of the character, I was really sad Shirley died, but that doesn't mean she can't keep on living as a character. This thread is enough of a proof.
Aerith from FF7 anyone ? It's been more than 10 years and people are still talking about her. Death means nothing for a great character

Aerith!!! AHHH!! I was so shocked from that...I lost that boss battle from being in shock, I kid you not.

Originally Posted by Arbitres

I guess your right.

And people are still talking about Aerith because of all the remakes of FF7... Advent Children, Crisis Core.. some anime adaptions/OVA's too. Off topic though.

There hasn't been one remake. Only additions to the story. And Crisis Core was awesome. I wish they'd make a full blown anime from Crisis Core to the end of FF7.

It's just... Did Shirley really have to die? It was all very tragic. Then again... That is 'Code Geass in a nut shell' a friend of mine recently said. Believe me, he does awesome snippets

Anyways... Shirley was an innocent character and I felt compelled to like her more after the Mao-encholy events. Though her role was increased in R2, it really didn't help to know Lelouch pretty much killed troves of people in her name.

yeah Lelouch, that is what she wanted you to do all along. Do a massacre in retaliation of her death. Good going, +rep for that... :/

Her innocence is what made it so tragic.

Originally Posted by azul120

Personally I thought Aerith was overrated as a character, just because she hadn't connected in that same kind of way. (General Leo from FF6 was much more tragic for my money.)

It's because of the CG and all - you actually saw it happen, so it had more effect.