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Old 2010-10-12, 11:45   Link #1781
Nobodyman9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kittenlady View Post
Not sadistic, just pragmatic. Shirley was already dead, there was nothing anyone could do about that, and the police would never be able to find the killer anyway. As far as Lelouch was concerned, the only possible way to make it a tiny bit better was revenge.
Well, let's not forget we're not even sure that Lelouch (if anyone) covered it up.

Quote:
Besides, I can't imagine letting her mother and friends know it was murder would actually help. Not saying suicide's any better, but at least that way it's over and done with, rather than a long stressful murder investigation.
Well, I wouldn't know from experience or anything, but believing a loved one committed suicide could potentially be a lot worse. With murder, well, they're terrible, but they happen. With suicide the surviving family may be left agonizing over how they neglected the deceased and failed to see that they were depressed.
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Old 2010-10-12, 20:33   Link #1782
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The thing is that Rolo is a trained assassin, and his Geass is the perfect tool for that end. Which brings up the only possible conclusion: while Shirley was paralyzed, Rolo ran up to her, took her gun holding hand, pointing the gun towards her midsection, and fired, thus barely if at all getting his own hands on the gun.
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Old 2010-10-12, 20:41   Link #1783
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Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
The thing is that Rolo is a trained assassin, and his Geass is the perfect tool for that end. Which brings up the only possible conclusion: while Shirley was paralyzed, Rolo ran up to her, took her gun holding hand, pointing the gun towards her midsection, and fired, thus barely if at all getting his own hands on the gun.
Well that and there was no camera's in the mall to see if anything is happening.
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Old 2010-10-12, 21:21   Link #1784
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Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
The thing is that Rolo is a trained assassin, and his Geass is the perfect tool for that end. Which brings up the only possible conclusion: while Shirley was paralyzed, Rolo ran up to her, took her gun holding hand, pointing the gun towards her midsection, and fired, thus barely if at all getting his own hands on the gun.
Well, he had to have touched something, be it the gun or if he just moved her hands, so fingerprints would've shown up unless he wore gloves or cleaned them off afterwards.

At least I think that's how it works.
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Old 2010-10-12, 22:03   Link #1785
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He was an assassin. He surely had his tools and methods.
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Old 2010-10-13, 00:58   Link #1786
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Originally Posted by Nobodyman9 View Post
Well, he had to have touched something, be it the gun or if he just moved her hands, so fingerprints would've shown up unless he wore gloves or cleaned them off afterwards.

At least I think that's how it works.
According to the "Fingerprinting Air" page on TV Tropes, even if Rolo didn't take precautions like making the gun fire from Shirley's hand, it still isn't a guarantee that any useable prints could be lifted from the weapon, and even then they would be completely useless without Rolo's own actual prints being on a file that regular crime labs could access. This doesn't seem likely, given Rolo's status as a covert assassin who probably doesn't legally exist (his Lamperouge identity notwithstanding).
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Old 2010-10-13, 08:40   Link #1787
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Originally Posted by Betteroffer View Post
According to the "Fingerprinting Air" page on TV Tropes, even if Rolo didn't take precautions like making the gun fire from Shirley's hand, it still isn't a guarantee that any useable prints could be lifted from the weapon, and even then they would be completely useless without Rolo's own actual prints being on a file that regular crime labs could access. This doesn't seem likely, given Rolo's status as a covert assassin who probably doesn't legally exist (his Lamperouge identity notwithstanding).
Well, we all know that Rolo being convicted and caught wouldn't happen either way. But if they found the fingerprints they wouldn't of declared it suicide.
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Old 2010-10-13, 14:31   Link #1788
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Well, we all know that Rolo being convicted and caught wouldn't happen either way. But if they found the fingerprints they wouldn't of declared it suicide.
Exactly.

And whatever the case, even if there was a good reason for them declaring it a suicide, the show obviously didn't present it. The way they presented it makes the forensics team look pretty incompetent.
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Old 2010-10-13, 15:58   Link #1789
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nobodyman9 View Post
Exactly.

And whatever the case, even if there was a good reason for them declaring it a suicide, the show obviously didn't present it. The way they presented it makes the forensics team look pretty incompetent.
Its probably what people said earlier, about the entire case being hidden by higher up Britannians, simply because it was involved with Jerimiah's appearance in the mall, and any victims had to be concealed, or classified as a suicide case to cover it up as much as possible.
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Old 2010-10-13, 16:20   Link #1790
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Its probably what people said earlier, about the entire case being hidden by higher up Britannians, simply because it was involved with Jerimiah's appearance in the mall, and any victims had to be concealed, or classified as a suicide case to cover it up as much as possible.
Perhaps, but if that is the case they didn't make it clear. It's been over 2 years since that episode and this is the first time I've ever considered it.

And what difference does it make anyway? Whether people believe she committed suicide or was murdered it still looks suspicious that it happened inside the mall. Not to mention she was a happy girl that showed no signs of suicidal tendencies.
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Old 2010-10-13, 20:25   Link #1791
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Originally Posted by Hsadman View Post
Well, we all know that Rolo being convicted and caught wouldn't happen either way. But if they found the fingerprints they wouldn't of declared it suicide.
That was my point. Despite what tends to happen in fiction, getting fingerprints off of a crime scene isn't the guarantee many people believe it is, and any partial prints could be believed to either be Shirley's or those of the officer she took the gun from.

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Originally Posted by Hooves View Post
Its probably what people said earlier, about the entire case being hidden by higher up Britannians, simply because it was involved with Jerimiah's appearance in the mall, and any victims had to be concealed, or classified as a suicide case to cover it up as much as possible.
I'm not so sure. Remember, Lelouch triggered that smokescreen and caused the people in the mall to scatter, believing it was terrorists. From there, all the Britannians had to do was confirm this in later press statements and that any deaths in the mall were then the result of these same terrorists. It was revealled way back in Shinjuku that Britannia has no problems censoring its media.

As for Jeremiah, remember that he had been framed as a traitor in the Orange Incident and was believed to have died in Narita. Assuming anyone recognized him (due to the faceplate) and actually believed it was him, they could just assume that the Orange allegations were true, as Gino did over Tokyo, and that Jeremiah was with the terrorists.

One other theory might be that Lelouch had enough sense about him as he left the mall to Geass some policemen to find Shirley's body and alter the crime scene enough to better make it look like a suicide, as I imagine that Britannian authorities would have all but had classes titled "Evidence Tampering 101."

Still, as Nobodyman9 said, whatever the reasons were, the show did a poor job of presenting it to us.
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Old 2010-10-13, 20:48   Link #1792
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(Written approximately 8 hours ago; excuse me if the point has pretty much already been made.)

Not so much the fingerprints, but 1) the unusual location for a bullet for a suicide, and 2) Lelouch's (or rather, some other person's) easily detectable presence around her body, would make a "it was suicide" conclusion from authorities about Shirley's death extremely questionable. Far from being 'considerate' enough to instigate a cover up, I don't even believe Lelouch went so far as to report her death in the first place, so the whole 'suicide' thing is definitely a plot hole in my opinion, and yet I can't really take that to mean that Shirley's death wasn't planned from the beginning. At the very least, what we do know is that Zero Re:quiem was planned from the beginning, and insofar that both Shirley's character and death dovetail so nicely with the themes of that conclusion, I can see now that if not planned, Shirley's death was certainly probably inevitable. For what it is, and Code Geass as a whole, I am actually pretty okay with Shirley's death and Zero Re:quiem in terms of them as a demonstration of her impact on Lelouch's character.

The key point of my own disappointment with Shirley's death is in terms of what it meant for narrative potential. Shirley was always an inspiring character for me, even moreso when I projected myself upon Lelouch, so when she died for me it was essentially the ruination of any theme of hope in the story. Idealistic 'world peace' ending aside, I still see this as essentially true--Lelouch died deservedly a monster at the 'barely lived life yet' age of 18. Code Geass is, on a personal level for me, a depressing story. That's why I do hold a level of disappointment about Shirley's death; however, nonetheless I also want to say that I still have a fair degree of respect for the story Okouchi and Taniguchi succeeded in conveying.

lol, now that I actually think of it--in terms of 'respecting a story' I mean--there's a surprising amount of similarity between Code Geass and my more recent (though actually a 2004 production) favourite anime, Kannazuki no Miko. Shounen tragedy, ridiculous plot twists, complete abandonment of any concept of rational storytelling wrapped around a powerfully dense and expressive emotional core--it's even got the terrible mecha, lol. Guess I haven't really moved on that much after all.
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Old 2010-10-13, 21:23   Link #1793
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I agree with you Sol, that normally a person who decides to suicide shoots themselves in the head not the abdomen. But even if Lelouch had been questioned he could have said that Shirley had tried to Suicide earlier but him and Suzaku stopped her.

Why didn't Suzaku ever do anything within the laws to punish Lelouch if thought it was him who killed Shirley.
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Old 2010-10-13, 21:26   Link #1794
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Originally Posted by C.2 View Post
I agree with you Sol, that normally a person who decides to suicide shoots themselves in the head not the abdomen. But even if Lelouch had been questioned he could have said that Shirley had tried to Suicide earlier but him and Suzaku stopped her.

Why didn't Suzaku ever do anything within the laws to punish Lelouch if thought it was him who killed Shirley.
Suzaku still dint have 100% proof that it was Lelouch. Remember, he needs full proof that Lelouch has recovered his memories, before he can do anything to stop him.
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Old 2010-10-13, 22:34   Link #1795
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
(Written approximately 8 hours ago; excuse me if the point has pretty much already been made.)

Not so much the fingerprints, but 1) the unusual location for a bullet for a suicide, and 2) Lelouch's (or rather, some other person's) easily detectable presence around her body, would make a "it was suicide" conclusion from authorities about Shirley's death extremely questionable. Far from being 'considerate' enough to instigate a cover up, I don't even believe Lelouch went so far as to report her death in the first place, so the whole 'suicide' thing is definitely a plot hole in my opinion, and yet I can't really take that to mean that Shirley's death wasn't planned from the beginning. At the very least, what we do know is that Zero Re:quiem was planned from the beginning, and insofar that both Shirley's character and death dovetail so nicely with the themes of that conclusion, I can see now that if not planned, Shirley's death was certainly probably inevitable. For what it is, and Code Geass as a whole, I am actually pretty okay with Shirley's death and Zero Re:quiem in terms of them as a demonstration of her impact on Lelouch's character.

The key point of my own disappointment with Shirley's death is in terms of what it meant for narrative potential. Shirley was always an inspiring character for me, even moreso when I projected myself upon Lelouch, so when she died for me it was essentially the ruination of any theme of hope in the story. Idealistic 'world peace' ending aside, I still see this as essentially true--Lelouch died deservedly a monster at the 'barely lived life yet' age of 18. Code Geass is, on a personal level for me, a depressing story. That's why I do hold a level of disappointment about Shirley's death; however, nonetheless I also want to say that I still have a fair degree of respect for the story Okouchi and Taniguchi succeeded in conveying.
I think you're jumping to the wrong conclusions there. Lelouch still had hope at that point, though he had begun to go back down the slippery slope at that point. At the same time, he also started becoming a Cosmic Plaything of epic proportions. Here's a point by point recap of the next several episodes (the parts about him being ridiculously unlucky):

- Suzaku gets right on his ass, to which effect he starts interrogating Kallen. (Kallen gives him his just desserts.)
- He manages to stop his father from taking C. C.'s code, but C. C. ends up sealing her code, and ends up back in her pre-geass acceptance state, leaving him even more isolated during the next few episodes.
- Right when his international body, the UFN starts to get off the ground, his father rickrolls him.
- With no one else to turn to for help with protecting Nunnally, he seeks out Suzaku's help. He lies for the sake of not appearing to care for personal pride. Suzaku, infuriated still for a moment, agrees to help after a bit, but Schneizel comes in and has Lelouch arrested, making the meeting look like a setup on Suzaku's part. Lelouch does escape and initiates the battle for Tokyo, now infuriated beyond belief towards him. Suzaku, on the goading of Kanon, Schneizel and Nina, goes in there with a nuclear weapon. Lelouch doesn't buy it, given the earlier incident. Kallen threatens to kill Suzaku, who refuses to escape, and as a result, his Geass takes over and fires FLEIJA, nuking the Tokyo settlement and millions with it, one of those people apparently being Nunnally.
- Needless to say, Lelouch is dumbstruck over what just happened. Schneizel takes advantage of this moment and arranges a meeting with the Black Knights. Based on his recordings of the meeting, he reveals to them that Zero is his own brother, a (one time) Britannian prince, who happens to have mind control. He also gives an account of what happened at the SAZ, using a Quote Mine no less from said meeting between Lelouch and Suzaku, that Lelouch gave the order to Euphemia on purpose, of course omitting the part where Suzaku knows Lelouch is lying. Of course, the BKs are cynical regarding these statements (though Chiba and Tohdoh have their own misgivings) until Ohgi and Villetta come in and suggest that it is all true, with nothing more than a few suggestions of who Lelouch is suspected of geassing. Villetta is especially suspect, since she likely knew more about it as leader of the intelligence unit watching over Lelouch, let alone the simple fact that she was a Britannian agent. And then of course Kanon says Lelouch knew but informed no one about FLEIJA, even though he and Schneizel intentionally made him distrustful of Suzaku, thereby setting him up. Ohgi of course agrees to turn over Lelouch in exchange for Japan, and then sends Kallen to pick up Lelouch. Kallen's appearance actually gives Lelouch one grain of Heroic Resolve. Unfortunately, what follows is the biggest Kangaroo Court scenario, to the point where Lelouch has no way to escape make his time, and must lie to save Kallen. He's only saved because of Rolo.

What follows is Lelouch completely passing the Despair Event Horizon, to which effect he tells Rivalz, who calls to see if he's in one piece, that he won't get to keep the promise of seeing fireworks. It is only now that he starts geassing random soldiers into complete obedience, as he plans to go out taking down his father. Needless to say, when that doesn't work out as intended (he only erases his parents and the Ragnarok Junction), he cooks up the Zero Requiem as one last ditch attempt.

tl;dr version: Zero Requiem is a result of him going off the deep end after one too many misfortunate events, even if not all of them were out of his hands. He was not a Complete Monster, as that would require him to, in full sanity and cognizance, abandon his morals and ethics. No; he was a Woobie Destroyer of Worlds, as his acts were driven by an insanity wrought by a lifetime of pain.

And if he deserved to die, then so did the likes of Cornelia and Villetta. Aggravatingly of course, the latter along with fellow Swiss Messenger Ohgi got the happiest ending.

Needless to say, the ending was a majorly contrived piece of "What the Fuck?!?!?!?!?!?!".
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Old 2010-10-13, 23:24   Link #1796
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Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
Needless to say, the ending was a majorly contrived piece of "What the Fuck?!?!?!?!?!?!".
That isn't something one can argue with.
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Old 2010-10-13, 23:26   Link #1797
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Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
I think you're jumping to the wrong conclusions there. Lelouch still had hope at that point, though he had begun to go back down the slippery slope at that point. At the same time, he also started becoming a Cosmic Plaything of epic proportions. Here's a point by point recap of the next several episodes (the parts about him being ridiculously unlucky):

- Suzaku gets right on his ass, to which effect he starts interrogating Kallen. (Kallen gives him his just desserts.)
- He manages to stop his father from taking C. C.'s code, but C. C. ends up sealing her code, and ends up back in her pre-geass acceptance state, leaving him even more isolated during the next few episodes.
- Right when his international body, the UFN starts to get off the ground, his father rickrolls him.
- With no one else to turn to for help with protecting Nunnally, he seeks out Suzaku's help. He lies for the sake of not appearing to care for personal pride. Suzaku, infuriated still for a moment, agrees to help after a bit, but Schneizel comes in and has Lelouch arrested, making the meeting look like a setup on Suzaku's part. Lelouch does escape and initiates the battle for Tokyo, now infuriated beyond belief towards him. Suzaku, on the goading of Kanon, Schneizel and Nina, goes in there with a nuclear weapon. Lelouch doesn't buy it, given the earlier incident. Kallen threatens to kill Suzaku, who refuses to escape, and as a result, his Geass takes over and fires FLEIJA, nuking the Tokyo settlement and millions with it, one of those people apparently being Nunnally.
- Needless to say, Lelouch is dumbstruck over what just happened. Schneizel takes advantage of this moment and arranges a meeting with the Black Knights. Based on his recordings of the meeting, he reveals to them that Zero is his own brother, a (one time) Britannian prince, who happens to have mind control. He also gives an account of what happened at the SAZ, using a Quote Mine no less from said meeting between Lelouch and Suzaku, that Lelouch gave the order to Euphemia on purpose, of course omitting the part where Suzaku knows Lelouch is lying. Of course, the BKs are cynical regarding these statements (though Chiba and Tohdoh have their own misgivings) until Ohgi and Villetta come in and suggest that it is all true, with nothing more than a few suggestions of who Lelouch is suspected of geassing. Villetta is especially suspect, since she likely knew more about it as leader of the intelligence unit watching over Lelouch, let alone the simple fact that she was a Britannian agent. And then of course Kanon says Lelouch knew but informed no one about FLEIJA, even though he and Schneizel intentionally made him distrustful of Suzaku, thereby setting him up. Ohgi of course agrees to turn over Lelouch in exchange for Japan, and then sends Kallen to pick up Lelouch. Kallen's appearance actually gives Lelouch one grain of Heroic Resolve. Unfortunately, what follows is the biggest Kangaroo Court scenario, to the point where Lelouch has no way to escape make his time, and must lie to save Kallen. He's only saved because of Rolo.

What follows is Lelouch completely passing the Despair Event Horizon, to which effect he tells Rivalz, who calls to see if he's in one piece, that he won't get to keep the promise of seeing fireworks. It is only now that he starts geassing random soldiers into complete obedience, as he plans to go out taking down his father. Needless to say, when that doesn't work out as intended (he only erases his parents and the Ragnarok Junction), he cooks up the Zero Requiem as one last ditch attempt.

tl;dr version: Zero Requiem is a result of him going off the deep end after one too many misfortunate events, even if not all of them were out of his hands. He was not a Complete Monster, as that would require him to, in full sanity and cognizance, abandon his morals and ethics. No; he was a Woobie Destroyer of Worlds, as his acts were driven by an insanity wrought by a lifetime of pain.

And if he deserved to die, then so did the likes of Cornelia and Villetta. Aggravatingly of course, the latter along with fellow Swiss Messenger Ohgi got the happiest ending.

Needless to say, the ending was a majorly contrived piece of "What the Fuck?!?!?!?!?!?!".
lol a lot of people deserve to die in code geass or at least get the sad ending. I have to agree with everything Azul said.
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Old 2010-10-14, 03:11   Link #1798
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Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
I think you're jumping to the wrong conclusions there. Lelouch still had hope at that point, though he had begun to go back down the slippery slope at that point. At the same time, he also started becoming a Cosmic Plaything of epic proportions. Here's a point by point recap of the next several episodes (the parts about him being ridiculously unlucky):

- Suzaku gets right on his ass, to which effect he starts interrogating Kallen. (Kallen gives him his just desserts.)
- He manages to stop his father from taking C. C.'s code, but C. C. ends up sealing her code, and ends up back in her pre-geass acceptance state, leaving him even more isolated during the next few episodes.
- Right when his international body, the UFN starts to get off the ground, his father rickrolls him.
- With no one else to turn to for help with protecting Nunnally, he seeks out Suzaku's help. He lies for the sake of not appearing to care for personal pride. Suzaku, infuriated still for a moment, agrees to help after a bit, but Schneizel comes in and has Lelouch arrested, making the meeting look like a setup on Suzaku's part. Lelouch does escape and initiates the battle for Tokyo, now infuriated beyond belief towards him. Suzaku, on the goading of Kanon, Schneizel and Nina, goes in there with a nuclear weapon. Lelouch doesn't buy it, given the earlier incident. Kallen threatens to kill Suzaku, who refuses to escape, and as a result, his Geass takes over and fires FLEIJA, nuking the Tokyo settlement and millions with it, one of those people apparently being Nunnally.
- Needless to say, Lelouch is dumbstruck over what just happened. Schneizel takes advantage of this moment and arranges a meeting with the Black Knights. Based on his recordings of the meeting, he reveals to them that Zero is his own brother, a (one time) Britannian prince, who happens to have mind control. He also gives an account of what happened at the SAZ, using a Quote Mine no less from said meeting between Lelouch and Suzaku, that Lelouch gave the order to Euphemia on purpose, of course omitting the part where Suzaku knows Lelouch is lying. Of course, the BKs are cynical regarding these statements (though Chiba and Tohdoh have their own misgivings) until Ohgi and Villetta come in and suggest that it is all true, with nothing more than a few suggestions of who Lelouch is suspected of geassing. Villetta is especially suspect, since she likely knew more about it as leader of the intelligence unit watching over Lelouch, let alone the simple fact that she was a Britannian agent. And then of course Kanon says Lelouch knew but informed no one about FLEIJA, even though he and Schneizel intentionally made him distrustful of Suzaku, thereby setting him up. Ohgi of course agrees to turn over Lelouch in exchange for Japan, and then sends Kallen to pick up Lelouch. Kallen's appearance actually gives Lelouch one grain of Heroic Resolve. Unfortunately, what follows is the biggest Kangaroo Court scenario, to the point where Lelouch has no way to escape make his time, and must lie to save Kallen. He's only saved because of Rolo.

What follows is Lelouch completely passing the Despair Event Horizon, to which effect he tells Rivalz, who calls to see if he's in one piece, that he won't get to keep the promise of seeing fireworks. It is only now that he starts geassing random soldiers into complete obedience, as he plans to go out taking down his father. Needless to say, when that doesn't work out as intended (he only erases his parents and the Ragnarok Junction), he cooks up the Zero Requiem as one last ditch attempt.

tl;dr version: Zero Requiem is a result of him going off the deep end after one too many misfortunate events, even if not all of them were out of his hands. He was not a Complete Monster, as that would require him to, in full sanity and cognizance, abandon his morals and ethics. No; he was a Woobie Destroyer of Worlds, as his acts were driven by an insanity wrought by a lifetime of pain.

And if he deserved to die, then so did the likes of Cornelia and Villetta. Aggravatingly of course, the latter along with fellow Swiss Messenger Ohgi got the happiest ending.

Needless to say, the ending was a majorly contrived piece of "What the Fuck?!?!?!?!?!?!".
We're talking about different things here. Quote myself: "narrative potential"; "theme of hope". The moment Shirley died was the moment when Code Geass, for me, became irrevocably a tragedy. Any possibility of a happy ending for Lelouch that I could live with disappeared. Other people less inspired/attached to Shirley might have felt differently, but in the end the story indeed confirmed the feelings I had at that time; 12 episodes later, they sent Lelouch after her. However, and this is the caveat here, they actually didn't do this to send out a message of 'life sucks' or anything. Both Shirley and Lelouch's death were used to express a positive message about not being mired in past distrust and hatred, and rather moving forward by believing in the basic goodness of other people. To that end, an alternate 'theme of hope' certainly emerged from the story, but I still regard it as a tragedy on a personal level, which was set in stone for Lelouch at the very least as early as the moment of Shirley's death.

As for your other comments, this is again a matter of opinion here, but lemme explain why I felt Lelouch was a 'monster' and why he deserved to die. It's not really an issue of guilt, sin, or incompetence. At the end of season 1, Suzaku described Lelouch as a person betrayed by the world, and who as a result would betray the world in return too. What characterizes Lelouch for me is not his brilliance, but his despair and his faithlessness. Throughout the series, Lelouch could not help himself from causing destruction because, at varying critical points in the story, he simply could no longer believe in the world--from the Black Rebellion in the wake of the death of Euphie, to his cursing of Suzaku which found expression in the destruction of Tokyo. Lelouch's faithlessness--in his country; in his allies; in his friends, family (fake or real) or parents; to make a sum of it, his lack of faith in the entire 'world'--is what lead him along a path of destructionso terrible that, when he was finally given a reality check by his father in the World of C, he had no further choice as a judge of himself except to give his own life away. Lelouch was a 'monster' because, as I believe he even recognized himself, he was an embodiment of the destruction of faith, the eternally betrayed and betraying; when he finally turned from destruction of the world as he gained some measure of faith in humanity, it was only a simple matter for his faithlessness to transfer over to the despair and destruction of himself. Someone so corrupted by the cruelties of fate certainly had no place in the world. This is the reason why Lelouch, and Lelouch alone, was the one who deserved to die.

It is pretty easy to just call Code Geass a clusterfuck, and I think this is probably what even most fans of the series do. However, if you can just step away from your own moral judgements of what is and isn't deserving, and try to view the series as a product of a particular idea the creators were trying to express, I think it is a narratively solid piece of work. The reason Lelouch as a character appeals so much to so many people is because cynicism and despair are the sort of feelings which mire millions if not billions of people in daily life. Lelouch appeared as a hero who embraced that and, by the sheer brilliance of his natural ability, usually succeeded in 'punishing' the objects of his or their faithlessness. I think the message Taniguchi and Okouchi were trying to express, though, with such an ending where Lelouch died while fairly every other 'guilty' party survived, is that it really isn't about solely seeing the bad in people and trying to tear everything down. Life and people move forward by believing in each other and the basic goodness of the world. This is corny shounen or even shoujo shit for sure, but you know, I still think it's basically something people should try to take from it. It's certainly a lot more of a satisfying conclusion in general than angrily writing it all off as a clusterfuck and going around using it as one more example of how everything is basically terrible.
__________________
Seasonal enjoyment ratings:
HappinessCharge Precure 100/5 :: Stardust Crusaders 80/5 :: Mushishi S2 90/5 :: Akuma no Riddle: 15/5 :: Inugami-san to Nekoyama-san 24/5 :: GochiUsa 33/5 :: Soul Eater NOT! 18/5 :: Love Live! S2 80/5
Summer: Sailor Moon Crystal 24/5 :: Hanayamata 30/5 :: Locodol 30/5 :: Yama no Susume 100/5 :: Momo Kyun Sword 11/5
God-tier yuri oneshot mangaka: Minase Ruruu
Yuri Precure otaku manga: Shinozaki-san ki wo ota shika ni
Awesome shoujo manga: Last Game

Last edited by Sol Falling; 2010-10-14 at 03:23.
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Old 2010-10-14, 04:05   Link #1799
azul120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
We're talking about different things here. Quote myself: "narrative potential"; "theme of hope". The moment Shirley died was the moment when Code Geass, for me, became irrevocably a tragedy. Any possibility of a happy ending for Lelouch that I could live with disappeared. Other people less inspired/attached to Shirley might have felt differently, but in the end the story indeed confirmed the feelings I had at that time; 12 episodes later, they sent Lelouch after her. However, and this is the caveat here, they actually didn't do this to send out a message of 'life sucks' or anything. Both Shirley and Lelouch's death were used to express a positive message about not being mired in past distrust and hatred, and rather moving forward by believing in the basic goodness of other people. To that end, an alternate 'theme of hope' certainly emerged from the story, but I still regard it as a tragedy on a personal level, which was set in stone for Lelouch at the very least as early as the moment of Shirley's death.

As for your other comments, this is again a matter of opinion here, but lemme explain why I felt Lelouch was a 'monster' and why he deserved to die. It's not really an issue of guilt, sin, or incompetence. At the end of season 1, Suzaku described Lelouch as a person betrayed by the world, and who as a result would betray the world in return too. What characterizes Lelouch for me is not his brilliance, but his despair and his faithlessness. Throughout the series, Lelouch could not help himself from causing destruction because, at varying critical points in the story, he simply could no longer believe in the world--from the Black Rebellion in the wake of the death of Euphie, to his cursing of Suzaku which found expression in the destruction of Tokyo. Lelouch's faithlessness--in his country; in his allies; in his friends, family (fake or real) or parents; to make a sum of it, his lack of faith in the entire 'world'--is what lead him along a path of destructionso terrible that, when he was finally given a reality check by his father in the World of C, he had no further choice as a judge of himself except to give his own life away. Lelouch was a 'monster' because, as I believe he even recognized himself, he was an embodiment of the destruction of faith, the eternally betrayed and betraying; when he finally turned from destruction of the world as he gained some measure of faith in humanity, it was only a simple matter for his faithlessness to transfer over to the despair and destruction of himself. Someone so corrupted by the cruelties of fate certainly had no place in the world. This is the reason why Lelouch, and Lelouch alone, was the one who deserved to die.

It is pretty easy to just call Code Geass a clusterfuck, and I think this is probably what even most fans of the series do. However, if you can just step away from your own moral judgements of what is and isn't deserving, and try to view the series as a product of a particular idea the creators were trying to express, I think it is a narratively solid piece of work. The reason Lelouch as a character appeals so much to so many people is because cynicism and despair are the sort of feelings which mire millions if not billions of people in daily life. Lelouch appeared as a hero who embraced that and, by the sheer brilliance of his natural ability, usually succeeded in 'punishing' the objects of his or their faithlessness. I think the message Taniguchi and Okouchi were trying to express, though, with such an ending where Lelouch died while fairly every other 'guilty' party survived, is that it really isn't about solely seeing the bad in people and trying to tear everything down. Life and people move forward by believing in each other and the basic goodness of the world. This is corny shounen or even shoujo shit for sure, but you know, I still think it's basically something people should try to take from it. It's certainly a lot more of a satisfying conclusion in general than angrily writing it all off as a clusterfuck and going around using it as one more example of how everything is basically terrible.
Let's back up a moment here. Allow me to begin by reiterating that he ALREADY tried offing himself by attempting to take Charles down with him by sealing the both of them inside the Sword of Akasha. Charles giving Lelouch a reality check is the furthest thing from the truth. When Charles tried to tell that everything that he had been doing was in their best interests, Lelouch threw it back in his face. Lelouch only went with the Zero Requiem because he was still burnt out, and wanted a final exit. As blade would be only too happy to point out, if he was in his right mind and really wanted to atone and achieve peace, he would have lived on and worked to maintain such a world via more diplomatic methods, instead of causing even more destruction and propping up Suzaku as a false Zero. It was another lie. All he accomplished was that he got his death wish, and an apparent peace is realized. A fragile one, mind, as nature abhors a vacuum, and any nation or group thereof could come into conflict with another, making his stunt all for naught. Except, of course, his fulfilled suicide wish. But even that was for naught, since Nunnally, one of his main reasons for living, and whose apparent death helped trigger his death wish, was alive all along. Doh!

And again, to suggest that Lelouch and Lelouch alone deserved to die, while the likes of Villetta and Cornelia didn't is just plain fucking bullshit, and only affirms that the CG-verse is a Crapsack World with No Therapists. To paraphrase one of Lelouch's lines: he wasn't the one at fault, they were.
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Old 2010-10-14, 04:47   Link #1800
Xander
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I'll just say I agree with a lot of what Sol Falling has already written. What I disagree with is a matter of specifics, to be sure, but even those are still subject to a similar line of interpretation in the grand scheme of things (in other words, lines of thought that rely on themes and other ideas as opposed to seeking audience satisfaction or realism).

In addition, I would stress this shouldn't be a matter of trying to push just one of our specific interpretations when we're dealing with a show that involves so many different elements and allows for different ways to look at them. In many cases we should probably speak of multiple causes and effects, not just of a single line of thought that excludes all other observations. It's entirely possible to focus on criticisms and nitpicks, valid or otherwise, but that shouldn't prevent other levels of analysis from existing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
As blade would be only too happy to point out, if he was in his right mind and really wanted to atone and achieve peace, he would have lived on and worked to maintain such a world via more diplomatic methods, instead of causing even more destruction and propping up Suzaku as a false Zero. It was another lie.
Lelouch is, with very brief exceptions that do not tend to last, not exactly known for being constructive in terms of how he seeks his goals and how he chooses his own atonement. He is also not known for telling the truth and his confrontations with Charles even include a defense of lies and masks in the real world as opposed to the "truth" of perfect understanding and so forth that the magical instrumentality of the Ragnarok Connection would bring. He rejects some lies, but also accepts and uses others.

What's more, and also to bring this back into the actual topic of this thread, Lelouch really would have needed the aid of someone like Shirley (or perhaps the long dead Euphemia and, I guess, pre-FLEIJA Suzaku) who had a positive personal influence on him in order to find a constructive form of atonement that did not lead down a dark path.

Quote:
All he accomplished was that he got his death wish, and an apparent peace is realized. A fragile one, mind, as nature abhors a vacuum, and any nation or group thereof could come into conflict with another, making his stunt all for naught.
Only if you consider the value of a fragile peace to be automatically zero, that is...

In the cynical world of reality, it often is. In a story where there was a certain amount of value assigned to idealism and hope -represented by, among others, Shirley herself- that isn't necessarily the case. It's a peace people can and -according to Lelouch- will struggle to protect. And if they fail in the short term, they'll keep seeking it in the long term. There are movements towards war and movements towards peace, not just one or the other.

Quote:
And again, to suggest that Lelouch and Lelouch alone deserved to die, while the likes of Villetta and Cornelia didn't is just plain fucking bullshit. To paraphrase one of Lelouch's lines: he wasn't the one at fault, they were.
If you're going to argue that, then Shirley, of all people, did not deserve to die. In fact, it's fair to say that alone was enough for some to drop the show.

But the question shouldn't be one of whether every single person in the story deserved to die or not, in the eyes of the audience.

Not all those who "deserve" to die end up dying, not in this story and certainly not in reality. Isn't that also "fucking bullshit" or what?

Absolutely senseless deaths and senseless survivals happen all the time in this world. What's more, the people who are guilty of the same crimes aren't judged equally.

Sometimes I wish I could stand up and run away from the literal train wreck that life and the history of the world can seem, in their worst moments, but...that's a bit difficult.

The most you can hope to say, in a fictional story, is that some deaths and some survivals carry meaning...but even then, it doesn't have to follow any universal rule of absolute consistency or moral satisfaction. You can have an unfair ending, like the ending of Code Geass is in several ways, without making it meaningless. You can call it bad storytelling, but I would find that more than a bit funny...in light of the fact reality can also be unfair, immoral and inconsistent. What horrible writers and directors must rule this universe.

I guess that's all far too meta, but in any case...let's leave it at that for now.

Despite not liking the way Shirley was treated by the show, on a personal level, and accepting that more could have been done, intellectually, with her character even if the same fate was likely to happen...I think it's possible to reconstruct what was the intended purpose of her death and the impact it had on Lelouch, like it has already been done above by Sol and others. Even if you argue it wasn't until Nunnally's "death" that Lelouch really lost it, Shirley's murder had both a direct and indirect role in the series of events that led up to the ultimate conclusion. What's more, I recall there was more of an emphasis on her in the Zero Requiem Special Edition compilation than on other characters.

Last edited by Xander; 2010-10-14 at 05:17.
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