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Old 2009-06-03, 06:25   Link #1
Eleonore Magilinon
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The Origins of Ragnarok Plan

As a prologue it should be noted that it's not only the discussion of Ragnarok plan, but also discussion of all the characters involved (although C.C. has her own thread) and let's assume that to understand the origins of the Plan we have to understand all the characters and their motivation first.

And so, in ep.21 and partly ep.15 of R2 we're told by Charles and Marianne their story, explaining the origins of Ragnarok plan, Marianne's death and C.C. role in all this. As I tried to tie the ends in this story, I've found it quite hard. So here I'll go along the story told and form my questions on the way and then try to give my own explanations to some of them (but I'm not sure if I'm right).

So, we were told this. First, "half a century ago" we have V.V. recieving a Code (an interesting question is how did he get it, it could have told us more about Geass and Code owners, but we don't have anything but pure assumptions on this point) and promising they would never lie to each other.

Then many years later, Marianne, who if I'm not mistaken was once a Knight of Rounds, come to picture as an Emperor's new wife. She also got a Geass from C.C. and the two of them also join that vow.

(Question number one: Why should C.C. join that vow? What's the reason for her to do so?
If I get Ragnarok plan right (and I'm not sure if I do), part of it meant bringing dead back to life and creating a world with no such things as life and death, so that meant it kind of contradicted C.C.'s wish, as she only wanted to die (let's not question this part right now).
However, Charles promises to grant C.C.'s wish after they activate Ragnarok so maybe there's a way to die even after that. But it still doesn't explain why C.C. needed to take any part in this "project".)

Then V.V. becomes jealous of Marianne, thinking she's changing Charles and he's enjoying two of them just understanding each other, he feels left along and fears that Charles reconsiders their promise.

(Question two: Why did he think so? Didn't Marianne support the vow? She was rather a useful helper for their vow to be fulfilled rather than being a hindrance.
We have only V.V.'s words to support the idea that she was changing Charles, and all her actions after appearing in the Sword of Akasha show she was with him all the way.)

So he kills her. Then he "sets it up". Rewatching it again, it seems it was just dragging Nanally under Marianne and reshooting everything again (everybody lies at the same place as in the original shooting).

(Question three: How he and his underlings did it?
She was small, but sane girl, how could he make it possible without rewriting her memories? And if he did, Charles would know that it was V.V. who kills Marianne, I mean, openly knew. And seems like he didn't, as V.V. felt somewhat safe after lying to him that he knew nothing about Marianne's death.)

Marianne transfers her mind into Anya with Geass and finds out she can talk with C.C., so she tells her everything and C.C. leaves. Now comes the real trouble for my brain.

(Important question four: Why did she leave? Knowing that Marianne's death didn't stop their plan with Emperor one bit and she was once with them. If you try to say it was because Marianne couldn't serve a Code-giving material any more, then it could be the Emperor, just as he tried later in the series.)

Following question four comes the question (I can be united) why didn't she return after being asked so, and why was it "Marianne couldn't convince her"?

Then Emperor rewrites Nanally's memory
(Question five: how and to what? she already had fake memories (that came from where? ref. question three) but they had to make sure that she won't ever come near to the truth.
Ok, assume that V.V. really was quite messy in simulating Marianne's death as I had pointed out before (although it's unprobable). Then why rewrite her memories? I mean, even if she understood what difference whould it make? I mean, ok, it would make a difference, but why danger? The only person this danger could come from was V.V, and he didn't know about rewritten memories. So he would continue to suspect them and probably would try to kill them anyway (as he tried with Lelouch).
Ok, version number two, more probable since Charles said "there needed to be evidence that she'll never get anywhere near the truth", it was for V.V. it was gone, on his eyes and to insure him the siblings will never find the truth. And how foolish should V.V. be to think after that (and I think Emperor would get access to the origianl memories to rewrite them and certainly get his doubts) that his brother doesn't know the truth? doesn't end up)

and Lelouch's memory too (it would seem) and then sends them away. (Somehow I'm able to buy Emperor's explanation of that. Ok, it would have been safer for them to be away. However, then he shouldn't have attacked Japan after sending them there. It was logic from the point of view that he only cared about Thought Elevators but not from the point of view he tried to explain. Remember how Marianne's expression changed when Lelouch demanded why they didn't stop the war? Seems like this part needs explaining too, it could be that she just never thought of it, but there might be also some hidden part behind this, make it question six with expectations for assumptions rather than fact based theories)

After that starts the real mess. I should have said that the next step is that after the idea Zero is connected with C.C. (let's remember what Clovis and Bradley did wasn't known to Charles or he would just take C.C. away - end of story) and then finding out it's Lelouch...
but there's one huge problem. Marianne talked with C.C during Black Rebellion. And even before. And it seemed that if Marianne was going as far as teasing her about being attached, she had a good idea it's Lelouch. So they should have known Lelouch is Zero and with just simple logic seaching Ashford should have been enough to capture C.C (even if they didn't know Lelouch's location, once they knew that he was alive next it's just a little investigation, and taking into account that the family who supported Lady Marianne had a school in Area 11)...
And even if we take it as they wanted something foolproof (and not scare C.C. away), then again, doing it while Lelouch and C.C. were in Ashford was way easier than later when C.C. never returned there).
But they decide to use Lelouch as bait to capture C.C. (really unrealistic, out of all possible ways using this with lots of difficulties and insecurities, although possible).
So I don't get their reasoning. They're crazy, but certainly not idiots of this sort.

And finally, if she was so easily spotted by Anya when the time was right, why not before?

Now, for my own explanations in addition to what was already said as comments to the questions.
First, one should remember C.C.'s words to V.V. (I'm starting to really like C.C. as she seems to be a most mysterious character, if you pay attention to little details it changes your view dramaticly), she said it. V.V. was in love with Marianne. So what drove him to kill her might have been this. He intentionally mistaken his simple jealousy for Marianne standing it a way between him and Charles (which in this light was also partly true). This might answer question two.
Also I want to note that from his final act before death being repeating his vow to Charles, I think he really cared for Charles in his own warped way. And we find out where this big brother(sister) complex in this family originates from.

That's facts. And now for assumptions. To answer question one and four we need to find a key for C.C. personality. It doesn't make sense for her to change her decisions like this unless... her real wish stayed the same from the time she got her Geass (and Geass answers person's wishes). What if although she didn't understand it herself, her wish was not just to die (we cannot say she does not wish to die) but also to gain happiness, to be loved before that? (We all can see from ep.15 that Lelouch thought this way, but this theory is another proof of this being true.)
That way it starts to make sense. She stayed with Charles, Marianne and V.V. because she felt like being part of a family of a sort (remember her telling Marianne that she was the only one to always tease her that way - why pay attention if she didn't actually enjoy it? and by the way, if she had watched Lelouch and Nanally from that time and actually became attached, it would explain why she was standing watching Lelouch and Suzaku in Japan as kids). And V.V.'s act actually destroyed that for her. She had seen their true form and didn't want to stay there any longer.

And then... we can see that through the series she became more and more reluctant to just play along. She had doubts when she almost had her Code taken by the Emperor. Consciously she thought that it was her wish, what else could there be to it, but unconsciously she felt like something wasn't right. Lelouch made her understand that. Marianne said that it was her (and not just accident) who sealed her own memories. Maybe it was just after understanding what she wanted. After her memories being forced to return, she became reluctant again, wondering what was right to do, and then finally deciding (as she told Charles and Marianne she realized they were just doing it for themselves.)

As I don't know if this is considered canon in the field of C.C. real personality, I would appreciate hearing your opinions on this theory (and your own ideas as well). But it certainly fits.

And in the end, about question six, I still haven't found a conclusion to that, but it hints that Lelouch was truly right and they were actually putting all the blame on V.V. who was already dead and couldn't defend himself. I'm just too focused on their (Charles and Marianne) theory now to see what actually is a solid fact and what is just their story and thus could be just fake. But remembering about V.V. being quite good "big brother" in a way, he might actually be bette than they try to make him be.

Also I feel that the worst one is really Charles, and Marianne does actually like her children like a mother should as Lelouch's words made impact on her from time to time. But seems like she really did possess a childish personality as shown by her moves (expecially the whirling one when she just entered, it was too playful for a serious woman... was it 38 years old?) and she never really tought about what being a mother was truly about. She had her mind full of other things. But she might have made quite a good one if she did think about it and Charles & V.V.'s influence wasn't as high.

And in the end I want to note that I do understand that the most convinient answer to all the questions above would just be "because authors didn't have time (both in planning and active show-time) to create something less contradicting" with an obligatory reference to the change of time-slot. But what I want is to create a theory which would explain it realisticly inside the world of Code Geass, and I do believe authors had that theory (because if they were so messy as not to they wouldn't be able to create something so dazzling as the plot for this show) but didn't have anough time to explain it all and thus left a lot of holes. I want to recreate these holes with a plan of first figuring out personalities (and I'm still not sure about Marianne and Charles for that matter) and then understanding their most natural actions in the scenes given.

Last edited by Eleonore Magilinon; 2009-06-03 at 09:36.
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Old 2009-06-04, 10:06   Link #2
ClovisLaBritannia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleonore Magilinon View Post
As a prologue it should be noted that it's not only the discussion of Ragnarok plan, but also discussion of all the characters involved (although C.C. has her own thread) and let's assume that to understand the origins of the Plan we have to understand all the characters and their motivation first.

And so, in ep.21 and partly ep.15 of R2 we're told by Charles and Marianne their story, explaining the origins of Ragnarok plan, Marianne's death and C.C. role in all this. As I tried to tie the ends in this story, I've found it quite hard. So here I'll go along the story told and form my questions on the way and then try to give my own explanations to some of them (but I'm not sure if I'm right).

So, we were told this. First, "half a century ago" we have V.V. recieving a Code (an interesting question is how did he get it, it could have told us more about Geass and Code owners, but we don't have anything but pure assumptions on this point) and promising they would never lie to each other.

Then many years later, Marianne, who if I'm not mistaken was once a Knight of Rounds, come to picture as an Emperor's new wife. She also got a Geass from C.C. and the two of them also join that vow.

(Question number one: Why should C.C. join that vow? What's the reason for her to do so?
If I get Ragnarok plan right (and I'm not sure if I do), part of it meant bringing dead back to life and creating a world with no such things as life and death, so that meant it kind of contradicted C.C.'s wish, as she only wanted to die (let's not question this part right now).
However, Charles promises to grant C.C.'s wish after they activate Ragnarok so maybe there's a way to die even after that. But it still doesn't explain why C.C. needed to take any part in this "project".)

Then V.V. becomes jealous of Marianne, thinking she's changing Charles and he's enjoying two of them just understanding each other, he feels left along and fears that Charles reconsiders their promise.

(Question two: Why did he think so? Didn't Marianne support the vow? She was rather a useful helper for their vow to be fulfilled rather than being a hindrance.
We have only V.V.'s words to support the idea that she was changing Charles, and all her actions after appearing in the Sword of Akasha show she was with him all the way.)

So he kills her. Then he "sets it up". Rewatching it again, it seems it was just dragging Nanally under Marianne and reshooting everything again (everybody lies at the same place as in the original shooting).

(Question three: How he and his underlings did it?
She was small, but sane girl, how could he make it possible without rewriting her memories? And if he did, Charles would know that it was V.V. who kills Marianne, I mean, openly knew. And seems like he didn't, as V.V. felt somewhat safe after lying to him that he knew nothing about Marianne's death.)

Marianne transfers her mind into Anya with Geass and finds out she can talk with C.C., so she tells her everything and C.C. leaves. Now comes the real trouble for my brain.

(Important question four: Why did she leave? Knowing that Marianne's death didn't stop their plan with Emperor one bit and she was once with them. If you try to say it was because Marianne couldn't serve a Code-giving material any more, then it could be the Emperor, just as he tried later in the series.)

Following question four comes the question (I can be united) why didn't she return after being asked so, and why was it "Marianne couldn't convince her"?

Then Emperor rewrites Nanally's memory
(Question five: how and to what? she already had fake memories (that came from where? ref. question three) but they had to make sure that she won't ever come near to the truth.
Ok, assume that V.V. really was quite messy in simulating Marianne's death as I had pointed out before (although it's unprobable). Then why rewrite her memories? I mean, even if she understood what difference whould it make? I mean, ok, it would make a difference, but why danger? The only person this danger could come from was V.V, and he didn't know about rewritten memories. So he would continue to suspect them and probably would try to kill them anyway (as he tried with Lelouch).
Ok, version number two, more probable since Charles said "there needed to be evidence that she'll never get anywhere near the truth", it was for V.V. it was gone, on his eyes and to insure him the siblings will never find the truth. And how foolish should V.V. be to think after that (and I think Emperor would get access to the origianl memories to rewrite them and certainly get his doubts) that his brother doesn't know the truth? doesn't end up)

and Lelouch's memory too (it would seem) and then sends them away. (Somehow I'm able to buy Emperor's explanation of that. Ok, it would have been safer for them to be away. However, then he shouldn't have attacked Japan after sending them there. It was logic from the point of view that he only cared about Thought Elevators but not from the point of view he tried to explain. Remember how Marianne's expression changed when Lelouch demanded why they didn't stop the war? Seems like this part needs explaining too, it could be that she just never thought of it, but there might be also some hidden part behind this, make it question six with expectations for assumptions rather than fact based theories)

After that starts the real mess. I should have said that the next step is that after the idea Zero is connected with C.C. (let's remember what Clovis and Bradley did wasn't known to Charles or he would just take C.C. away - end of story) and then finding out it's Lelouch...
but there's one huge problem. Marianne talked with C.C during Black Rebellion. And even before. And it seemed that if Marianne was going as far as teasing her about being attached, she had a good idea it's Lelouch. So they should have known Lelouch is Zero and with just simple logic seaching Ashford should have been enough to capture C.C (even if they didn't know Lelouch's location, once they knew that he was alive next it's just a little investigation, and taking into account that the family who supported Lady Marianne had a school in Area 11)...
And even if we take it as they wanted something foolproof (and not scare C.C. away), then again, doing it while Lelouch and C.C. were in Ashford was way easier than later when C.C. never returned there).
But they decide to use Lelouch as bait to capture C.C. (really unrealistic, out of all possible ways using this with lots of difficulties and insecurities, although possible).
So I don't get their reasoning. They're crazy, but certainly not idiots of this sort.

And finally, if she was so easily spotted by Anya when the time was right, why not before?

Now, for my own explanations in addition to what was already said as comments to the questions.
First, one should remember C.C.'s words to V.V. (I'm starting to really like C.C. as she seems to be a most mysterious character, if you pay attention to little details it changes your view dramaticly), she said it. V.V. was in love with Marianne. So what drove him to kill her might have been this. He intentionally mistaken his simple jealousy for Marianne standing it a way between him and Charles (which in this light was also partly true). This might answer question two.
Also I want to note that from his final act before death being repeating his vow to Charles, I think he really cared for Charles in his own warped way. And we find out where this big brother(sister) complex in this family originates from.

That's facts. And now for assumptions. To answer question one and four we need to find a key for C.C. personality. It doesn't make sense for her to change her decisions like this unless... her real wish stayed the same from the time she got her Geass (and Geass answers person's wishes). What if although she didn't understand it herself, her wish was not just to die (we cannot say she does not wish to die) but also to gain happiness, to be loved before that? (We all can see from ep.15 that Lelouch thought this way, but this theory is another proof of this being true.)
That way it starts to make sense. She stayed with Charles, Marianne and V.V. because she felt like being part of a family of a sort (remember her telling Marianne that she was the only one to always tease her that way - why pay attention if she didn't actually enjoy it? and by the way, if she had watched Lelouch and Nanally from that time and actually became attached, it would explain why she was standing watching Lelouch and Suzaku in Japan as kids). And V.V.'s act actually destroyed that for her. She had seen their true form and didn't want to stay there any longer.

And then... we can see that through the series she became more and more reluctant to just play along. She had doubts when she almost had her Code taken by the Emperor. Consciously she thought that it was her wish, what else could there be to it, but unconsciously she felt like something wasn't right. Lelouch made her understand that. Marianne said that it was her (and not just accident) who sealed her own memories. Maybe it was just after understanding what she wanted. After her memories being forced to return, she became reluctant again, wondering what was right to do, and then finally deciding (as she told Charles and Marianne she realized they were just doing it for themselves.)

As I don't know if this is considered canon in the field of C.C. real personality, I would appreciate hearing your opinions on this theory (and your own ideas as well). But it certainly fits.

And in the end, about question six, I still haven't found a conclusion to that, but it hints that Lelouch was truly right and they were actually putting all the blame on V.V. who was already dead and couldn't defend himself. I'm just too focused on their (Charles and Marianne) theory now to see what actually is a solid fact and what is just their story and thus could be just fake. But remembering about V.V. being quite good "big brother" in a way, he might actually be bette than they try to make him be.

Also I feel that the worst one is really Charles, and Marianne does actually like her children like a mother should as Lelouch's words made impact on her from time to time. But seems like she really did possess a childish personality as shown by her moves (expecially the whirling one when she just entered, it was too playful for a serious woman... was it 38 years old?) and she never really tought about what being a mother was truly about. She had her mind full of other things. But she might have made quite a good one if she did think about it and Charles & V.V.'s influence wasn't as high.

And in the end I want to note that I do understand that the most convinient answer to all the questions above would just be "because authors didn't have time (both in planning and active show-time) to create something less contradicting" with an obligatory reference to the change of time-slot. But what I want is to create a theory which would explain it realisticly inside the world of Code Geass, and I do believe authors had that theory (because if they were so messy as not to they wouldn't be able to create something so dazzling as the plot for this show) but didn't have anough time to explain it all and thus left a lot of holes. I want to recreate these holes with a plan of first figuring out personalities (and I'm still not sure about Marianne and Charles for that matter) and then understanding their most natural actions in the scenes given.



all i know is they gave a shitty ending to both Charles and Marianne this is how it should of happened:

Charles should of simply been trapped in the sword of Akasha for all eternity alone probably the worst fate for him

and Marianne should of actually died by Charles hand and actually loved her kids
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Old 2009-06-04, 12:32   Link #3
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Well, i think C.C joined the plan(for the time, since it seems she lose her interest after Marianne's death) because she wanted a nice future too. She's human after all, she wanted to die, but tomorrow is always there, even after she dies, so, nothing wrong to make people happy, hehe. Or maybe she was just going with the flow, since it's a very ludicrous plan.

About V.V killing Marianne, i don't know, i think that's was a little paranoic of his part. Marianne was with their plan, but with her in the game, maybe Charles would lose his focus and give it up, like what could happen if Nunnally or Kallen were into Zero Requiem, but not the same, cause in the ZR case, the threaten was real. Kallen and Nunnally could've changed Lelouch's mind about killing himself after all, but Marianne was so into it that i think it was just craziness of V.V's part.
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Old 2009-06-04, 14:22   Link #4
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After killed Marianne, V.V called somebody with a mobile, but who? Never a explanation.
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Old 2009-06-04, 20:56   Link #5
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V.V. was just a punk brat who seemed to think that he and Charles alone were better than the rest of the world and deserved to be above it. Kinda like Lelouch used to do with Nunnally though he eventually got over it. Marianne didn't fit into that equation obviously so she needed to be dealt with. Considering this is the same guy who gave Rolo his "The solution to every problem is to kill the source even if its only slightly possible to be a problem in the first place." mentality it's not too surprising.

I actually thought Charles and V.V. had some different plan at the beginning. But after his own brother selfishly murdered his wife and then tried to hide it(things they swore to fight against in the first place) that was the last straw for Charles who decided humanity really couldn't be changed on its own and decided to force drastic change on it through Ragnarok.
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Old 2009-06-04, 21:13   Link #6
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After killed Marianne, V.V called somebody with a mobile, but who? Never a explanation.
It was probably just a henchman, it's not like there's someone for him to give satisfaction or was with him in the course of his plan.
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Old 2009-06-06, 22:44   Link #7
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Eh, I never fully understood the whole Ragnarok plan. Of course, many are very disappointed with how it ended up since it pretty much derailed Charles and Marianne's characters. I'm just wondering if this is more or less what O&T were aiming for or if they had to change a lot of it due to time constraints. The fact that it was basically a ripoff of NGE doesn't help either.
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Old 2009-06-06, 23:19   Link #8
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Yeah that was a bit of a letdown with the whole "Marianne was evil and V.V. killed her cause he's a jealous ass. Everything we've hinted about those characters was wrong."

I wonder if they were just trying to shock people. I don't think anybody saw the Ragnarok thing coming.
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Old 2009-06-06, 23:24   Link #9
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Yeah that was a bit of a letdown with the whole "Marianne was evil and V.V. killed her cause he's a jealous ass. Everything we've hinted about those characters was wrong."

I wonder if they were just trying to shock people. I don't think anybody saw the Ragnarok thing coming.
Well, as it's been said, there are some resemblances to Lelouch/Shirley/Rolo and Charles/Marianne/V.V.

I do wish that Marianne had stayed as the caring and loving mother......well, I guess she sort of was, but if they just didn't add this dark side to her.

Anyway, I don't know why C.C. joined up with them (probably another thing they didn't think through) but the point is that she wanted to die and if the Ragnarok plan went through she would have ceased to exist as she knows. Maybe it would have been a bizarre different kind of existence, but her physical would've been gone. The way I understand it is that every living human would have merged with the World of C consciousness which is just what happnes after they die anyway.
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Old 2009-06-06, 23:43   Link #10
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V.V. was just a punk brat who seemed to think that he and Charles alone were better than the rest of the world and deserved to be above it. Kinda like Lelouch used to do with Nunnally though he eventually got over it.
Not even close. Lelouch may have been extremely protective over Nunnally, but that doesn't mean he never got along with anyone else.
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Old 2009-06-07, 00:03   Link #11
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Oh Lelouch got along alright. But he viewed himself and Nunnally in a different light than anyone else. It wasn't until later on that he really opened up and let people like Shirley and Rivalz in. Until then he was just going through the motions and putting up appearances and all he wanted was himself with Nunnally in the world. V.V. got along with people like his cult and Rolo and Jeremiah when he needed to. He just saw himself and Charles as the most important people and when Marianne threatened that bond he killed her.
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Old 2009-06-07, 00:21   Link #12
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Oh Lelouch got along alright. But he viewed himself and Nunnally in a different light than anyone else. It wasn't until later on that he really opened up and let people like Shirley and Rivalz in. Until then he was just going through the motions and putting up appearances and all he wanted was himself with Nunnally in the world. V.V. got along with people like his cult and Rolo and Jeremiah when he needed to. He just saw himself and Charles as the most important people and when Marianne threatened that bond he killed her.
Well, he had Suzaku too. He was just distrustful at the time due to what had happened with the exile to Japan and subsequent takeover by Britannia.

V. V. was just a maliciously paranoid li'l git.
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Old 2009-06-07, 00:22   Link #13
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Using simple words, Charles wanted to use the collective unconscious to make a sort of brainwash to the earth people.

For to create a world without lies, but at the same time, all the people become a sort of zombies without a real independence.

A sort of hive with Charles in the center, 1 king, 1 queen and a world of perfect subjects.

Like the middle ages, when the people was under a king without the will to see in different direction.....a return to the past, like Charles wanted it.
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Old 2009-06-07, 00:29   Link #14
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Using simple words, Charles wanted to use the collective unconscious to make a sort of brainwash to the earth people.

For to create a world without lies, but at the same time, all the people become a sort of zombies without a real independence.

A sort of hive with Charles in the center, 1 king, 1 queen and a world of perfect subjects.

Like the middle ages, when the people was under a king without the will to see in different direction.....a return to the past, like Charles wanted it.
Hmm, is that confirmed? If so, it sounds a lot like Lelouch's geass actually. Everyone forcefully being made to tell the truth and have no independence. Well, I just really wish they had explained the Ragnarok Plan more clearly. I don't know how much of it is literal and how much symbolic. There was a lot of psycho babble in it.
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Old 2009-06-07, 00:45   Link #15
azul120
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Lelouch's geass was a means to a different end, with Charles' goal being an end itself.
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Old 2009-06-07, 00:52   Link #16
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Lelouch's geass was a means to a different end, with Charles' goal being an end itself.
Yeah, but I'm just saying the basic principle behind it is the same. Lelouch's used his geass as a means to reach the goal, with only some people being afflicted with it, and Charles using a geass-like power on the world was his goal.
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Old 2009-06-07, 01:46   Link #17
Charred Knight
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Here's an honest to god question

Is it just me or was Nunnaly, Lelouch, and Schneizel's plan exactly the same plan except with a different evil overlord?

I mean the entire last few episodes just seem like they could have been easily prevented by the cast showing some brains.

All three clearly want peace, but instead go for some insane plan where they pretend to be evil overlord's and threaten to blowup the world which causes thousand's of deaths (with Lelouch's death toll in the millions) the ruin any chance for Japan to recover, and everylast part of that could have been prevented.
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Old 2009-06-07, 02:01   Link #18
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Originally Posted by Nobodyman9 View Post
Hmm, is that confirmed? If so, it sounds a lot like Lelouch's geass actually. Everyone forcefully being made to tell the truth and have no independence. Well, I just really wish they had explained the Ragnarok Plan more clearly. I don't know how much of it is literal and how much symbolic. There was a lot of psycho babble in it.
If you see the first part of episode 22, during the ragnarok activation, you can read on more monitors "mind control start".

Then....
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Old 2009-06-07, 12:05   Link #19
Nobodyman9
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Here's an honest to god question

Is it just me or was Nunnaly, Lelouch, and Schneizel's plan exactly the same plan except with a different evil overlord?

I mean the entire last few episodes just seem like they could have been easily prevented by the cast showing some brains.

All three clearly want peace, but instead go for some insane plan where they pretend to be evil overlord's and threaten to blowup the world which causes thousand's of deaths (with Lelouch's death toll in the millions) the ruin any chance for Japan to recover, and everylast part of that could have been prevented.
Yep, that's exactly what Lelouch and Nunnally said in the last ep. Nunnally said the Damocles would be a symbol of everyone's hatred and Lelouch said she had the same idea he had. The only difference is that Schneizel would have stayed in power and ruled the world with an iron fleija fist and Lelouch chose to die in the end and give the world a fresh start.

But I think this might be OT.
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Old 2009-06-07, 16:09   Link #20
Eleonore Magilinon
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Well, i think C.C joined the plan(for the time, since it seems she lose her interest after Marianne's death) because she wanted a nice future too. She's human after all, she wanted to die, but tomorrow is always there, even after she dies, so, nothing wrong to make people happy, hehe. Or maybe she was just going with the flow, since it's a very ludicrous plan.
Well, her will to create a "good" future for others doesn't go along with her perfect indifference to the fate of others (that was created by passing centures). So the only way for it to be true is to take for the basis the fact she actually cared a lot more than she tried to make it look like.

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About V.V killing Marianne, i don't know, i think that's was a little paranoic of his part. Marianne was with their plan, but with her in the game, maybe Charles would lose his focus and give it up, like what could happen if Nunnally or Kallen were into Zero Requiem, but not the same, cause in the ZR case, the threaten was real. Kallen and Nunnally could've changed Lelouch's mind about killing himself after all, but Marianne was so into it that i think it was just craziness of V.V's part.
I'm not sure that Kallen or Nunnally could change Lelouch's mind at that point. After all, Nunnally tried)
And I don't get the part about loosing focus... For me, it's like their agreement on Ragnarok's plan was what made them so close... So yes, it was V.V.'s craziness... But I also see it like jelousy, as simple as that) C.C. commented on that, didn't she?

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V.V. was just a punk brat who seemed to think that he and Charles alone were better than the rest of the world and deserved to be above it. Kinda like Lelouch used to do with Nunnally though he eventually got over it. Marianne didn't fit into that equation obviously so she needed to be dealt with. Considering this is the same guy who gave Rolo his "The solution to every problem is to kill the source even if its only slightly possible to be a problem in the first place." mentality it's not too surprising.
Interesting point, I haven't thought about that. But because Marianne was something to be dealt with... Sounds really like V.V.
But then there's C.C.'s words...

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I actually thought Charles and V.V. had some different plan at the beginning. But after his own brother selfishly murdered his wife and then tried to hide it(things they swore to fight against in the first place) that was the last straw for Charles who decided humanity really couldn't be changed on its own and decided to force drastic change on it through Ragnarok.
No, as you might remember, when V.V. came to see her (and kill her), she asked him if it's about Sword of Akasha. So it was the original plan.

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Well, as it's been said, there are some resemblances to Lelouch/Shirley/Rolo and Charles/Marianne/V.V.

I do wish that Marianne had stayed as the caring and loving mother......well, I guess she sort of was, but if they just didn't add this dark side to her.
Hm, I never saw that resemblance... but now I do, thanks for pointing that out)
And actually, I have always thought that there was something fishy about Marianne. She was too good to be true. The only person who was too good and still did pass a "Mary Sue" test was Euphie, because she was absolutely pure-hearted and quite childlishly stupid (or should I say ignorant to the ways of the world). And Marianne wasn't the same. So I always expected something like that to pop up... But still, it was sad.
And I still don't think she didn't care at all. I see her caring a lot more than Emperor did, as she was affected by Lelouch's words a couple of times... But she was too much into their plan with Charles...

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Anyway, I don't know why C.C. joined up with them (probably another thing they didn't think through) but the point is that she wanted to die and if the Ragnarok plan went through she would have ceased to exist as she knows. Maybe it would have been a bizarre different kind of existence, but her physical would've been gone. The way I understand it is that every living human would have merged with the World of C consciousness which is just what happnes after they die anyway.
I thought about that... But as I, too, do not quite sure about getting the meaning of Ragnarok right... Bonzo, for example, takes it differently...
And the fact I didn't even watch NGE (as I figured it'll be too much for my nerves with the end of the world) doesn't help either.
But still, I feel like we couldn't be sure about not having any consience left in different people, or they wouldn't be taking about world of truth. It wouldn't be a world anymore... So I don't see why C.C. should take the risk of getting eternal life again instead of dying...
If it's not the theory I stated about her in my first post)

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Using simple words, Charles wanted to use the collective unconscious to make a sort of brainwash to the earth people.

For to create a world without lies, but at the same time, all the people become a sort of zombies without a real independence.

A sort of hive with Charles in the center, 1 king, 1 queen and a world of perfect subjects.

Like the middle ages, when the people was under a king without the will to see in different direction.....a return to the past, like Charles wanted it.
I would like too see it at least this way, but then what about the part about merging everyone into single existance?
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