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Old 2009-05-08, 20:34   Link #41
Orga777
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
That doesn't have any correlation with not giving them Japan. They didn't fulfill their end of the bargain, so neither did he. The negotiation was for a completely different thing: an armistice.
Jeez I really need to brush up on CG again... XD
But still, he was willing to listen which is what was important.

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Didn't exist at that time, so he couldn't possibly know. Code R took off when Schneizel took over. They were mostly in the research phase before that.
I know that. Which is why he could have taken it as the threat. Because that seemed to be what Schneizel was hoping to use possibly before FLEIA came around.
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Old 2009-05-08, 20:37   Link #42
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by Orga777 View Post
Jeez I really need to brush up on CG again... XD
But still, he was willing to listen which is what was important.
That's not just listening, though, it's basically accepting their surrender. He had won, and opened up discussions to stop the fighting. For all we know he would have just let them languish in their own territory, with no retaliation as long as they stayed there.

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I know that. Which is why he could have taken it as the threat. Because that seemed to be what Schneizel was hoping to use possibly before FLEIA came around.
Possibly, but you'd need more than that.
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Old 2009-05-08, 20:40   Link #43
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
That's not just listening, though, it's basically accepting their surrender. He had won, and opened up discussions to stop the fighting. For all we know he would have just let them languish in their own territory, with no retaliation as long as they stayed there.
Ehh... I don't fully agree there. I think he was willing to make consessions on the matter. After all, the BKs are still a huge army. Even with FLEIA it would be annoying to deal with, especially since the UFN had completely formed at the time making it even larger with the resources of the EU and half of the CF.

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Possibly, but you'd need more than that.
Do you have any other ideas on what it could have been? XD
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Old 2009-05-08, 20:41   Link #44
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And lets be honest here, Lelouch was the real threat behind the Black Knights, with him taken out of the picture and the rest of the Federation of Nations falling to Britannia, one small island nation is a non-factor.
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Old 2009-05-08, 20:45   Link #45
Orga777
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Originally Posted by demon_god04 View Post
And lets be honest here, Lelouch was the real threat behind the Black Knights, with him taken out of the picture and the rest of the Federation of Nations falling to Britannia, one small island nation is a non-factor.
What? If that was the case then Lelouch being claimed "dead" by the BKs would have resulted in a total collapse of everything. That didn't happen though and the UFN was still inexistance and was still pretty much a superpower to rival Britannia even during that time between Lelouch's reappearance.
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Old 2009-05-08, 20:48   Link #46
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What? If that was the case then Lelouch being claimed "dead" by the BKs would have resulted in a total collapse of everything. That didn't happen though and the UFN was still in existance and was still pretty much a superpower to rival Britannia even during that time between Lelouch's reappearance.
They weren't a threat with Lelouch gone. Lelouch was the strategic mastermind, and with him gone and Britannia in possession of such a decisive advantage, not to mention their standing army still being larger overall, they were fucked as far as straight-up war goes. However, by that same token, he could have conceded them Japan for the hell of it and just taken it back when he felt like it.
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Old 2009-05-08, 20:51   Link #47
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If there was one thing that was made abundantly clear about Schneizel was that the only one who was really his match was Zero/Lelouch and even the characters knew it. Schneizel conquered half of Europe for Britannia, and only left the other half because he got lazy (okay he wanted to give them a chance and everything :P). The major reason the UFN was still around after that was because the events that happened after betraying Zero was so confusing and that Charles simply disappeared which kind of put a halt on the world war they were fighting. Lelouch was hedging his bets on taken Japan and staking the best of his forces in the assault. Japan was the key to the war with Britannia.
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Old 2009-05-08, 20:53   Link #48
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
They weren't a threat with Lelouch gone. Lelouch was the strategic mastermind, and with him gone and Britannia in possession of such a decisive advantage, they were fucked as far as straight-up war goes.
Oh not this again... I remember arguing against this line of thought a while back... and it still is just as inane as it is was then. Yes, they would be at a disadvantage without Lelouch's strategic masterplans. BUT, they still have competance in that area with Toudou and Xing-Ke (especially Xing-Ke who made Lelouch look like a fool at one point). After Zero left they had PLENTY to actually run their group without Lelouch's micro-managing and they had plenty of veteran soldiers at their disposal not to mention resources from the EU and CF. Kaguya has shown the capabilities to being a strong political leader and with Toudou and Xing-Ke running military affairs, they would still be a force to be rekoned with in a fight against Britannia. Especially since the FLEIA warheads were not fully mass-produced till after Schneizel went into hiding in Cambodia.

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However, by that same token, he could have conceded them Japan for the hell of it and just taken it back when he felt like it.
Ehh... That isn't Schneizel's style at all. I don't see him being one to do that.

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Originally Posted by demon_god04
If there was one thing that was made abundantly clear about Schneizel was that the only one who was really his match was Zero/Lelouch and even the characters knew it. Schneizel conquered half of Europe for Britannia, and only left the other half because he got lazy (okay he wanted to give them a chance and everything :P). The major reason the UFN was still around after that was because the events that happened after betraying Zero was so confusing and that Charles simply disappeared which kind of put a halt on the world war they were fighting. Lelouch was hedging his bets on taken Japan and staking the best of his forces in the assault. Japan was the key to the war with Britannia.
Oh I know that Lelouch and Schneizel were the only two that could beat each other. No question about that at all. And I agree to everything you posted here. But Lelouch not being there to hold the BK's and the UFN's hands would result in total obliteration, is, I think, completely over-exaggerated.
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Old 2009-05-08, 20:57   Link #49
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That talk about Code R makes me wonder once again...
How much did they know at the beginning of the first season? They had pretty old photographs of C.C. and needed to have a lot of information to do what they did later on, but Clovis specifically ordered to bring C.C. back alive - even when no one except maybe Bartley was paying attention.
So... did the research team have more information than Clovis? Were they just not aware of the "extend" of C.C.'s immortality?
And how could Schneizel get involved with Code R without finding out about Geass?
...I think it's really time for me to rewatch everything.

Edit:
Then again... wasn't it with V.V.'s help that Jeremiah got his Geass caneler? And for everything else, they didn't need that much information - not about the nature of immortality or even the Geass itself.
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Old 2009-05-08, 21:01   Link #50
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by Orga777 View Post
Oh not this again... I remember arguing against this line of thought a while back... and it still is just as inane as it is was then. Yes, they would be at a disadvantage without Lelouch's strategic masterplans. BUT, they still have competance in that area with Toudou and Xing-Ke (especially Xing-Ke who made Lelouch look like a fool at one point). After Zero left they had PLENTY to actually run their group without Lelouch's micro-managing and they had plenty of veteran soldiers at their disposal not to mention resources from the EU and CF. Kaguya has shown the capabilities to being a strong political leader and with Toudou and Xing-Ke running military affairs, they would still be a force to be rekoned with in a fight against Britannia. Especially since the FLEIA warheads were not fully mass-produced till after Schneizel went into hiding in Cambodia.
Tohdoh can lead a battle, not a war, and Xingke only won because of the home-field advantage. He's nothing compared to Lelouch when it comes to large-scale tactics. Lelouch is the only reason they even got into Japan in the first place. Without him, they're just an outnumbered army with some decent military leaders. Politicians like Kaguya don't factor in if the military can't do the job.

The production of the warheads is a moot point. Just having them is enough of a threat that no one would be stupid enough to try an attack, especially when it's been proven that they are willing to nuke their own territory.

The UFN would lose without Lelouch, because they were outmanned and outgunned. Lelouch was the only thing evening the odds.

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Ehh... That isn't Schneizel's style at all. I don't see him being one to do that.
He would if told to by the Emperor. He'd probably try to get around it through negotiations, but if he was told to take Japan back, he'd do it.
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Old 2009-05-08, 21:05   Link #51
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Originally Posted by Orga777 View Post
Oh not this again... I remember arguing against this line of thought a while back... and it still is just as inane as it is was then. Yes, they would be at a disadvantage without Lelouch's strategic masterplans. BUT, they still have competance in that area with Toudou and Xing-Ke (especially Xing-Ke who made Lelouch look like a fool at one point). After Zero left they had PLENTY to actually run their group without Lelouch's micro-managing and they had plenty of veteran soldiers at their disposal not to mention resources from the EU and CF. Kaguya has shown the capabilities to being a strong political leader and with Toudou and Xing-Ke running military affairs, they would still be a force to be rekoned with in a fight against Britannia. Especially since the FLEIA warheads were not fully mass-produced till after Schneizel went into hiding in Cambodia.



Ehh... That isn't Schneizel's style at all. I don't see him being one to do that.



Oh I know that Lelouch and Schneizel were the only two that could beat each other. No question about that at all. And I agree to everything you posted here. But Lelouch not being there to hold the BK's and the UFN's hands would result in total obliteration, is, I think, completely over-exaggerated.
Yes but as you agreed on, just being competent does not mean a match for Schneizel. The EU also had competent commanders that fought Britannia until Schneizel entered into the equation and then they suffered nothing but defeats. With Lelouch gone and Britannia still having the superior military might as well as FEIA, total obliteration is not much of an over exaggeration. The very reason that all the nations came together under the UFN was because of Zero's abilities which was acknowledged by the nations as their only way to counter Britannia.
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Old 2009-05-08, 21:13   Link #52
Orga777
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
Tohdoh can lead a battle, not a war, and Xingke only won because of the home-field advantage. He's nothing compared to Lelouch when it comes to large-scale tactics. Lelouch is the only reason they even got into Japan in the first place. Without him, they're just an outnumbered army with some decent military leaders. Politicians like Kaguya don't factor in if the military can't do the job.
They were not exactly out numbered once the UFN formed... You clearly saw the final battle. There was plenty of military support for the UFN.

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The UFN would lose without Lelouch, because they were outmanned and outgunned. Lelouch was the only thing evening the odds.
I didn't say they wouldn't lose.
But they were still a huge threat and had control of a large portion of the world map. Even if Britannia ended up winning in the end, imagine how many resources, men, and supplies would be destroyed.

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He would if told to by the Emperor. He'd probably try to get around it through negotiations, but if he was told to take Japan back, he'd do it.
Not really. If Suzaku got his way and Schneizel accepted the coup attempt, and had the BKs in his back pocket to help him out with that, I could see something completely different going on even with Lelouch taken out of the picture.

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Originally Posted by demon_god04
Yes but as you agreed on, just being competent does not mean a match for Schneizel. The EU also had competent commanders that fought Britannia until Schneizel entered into the equation and then they suffered nothing but defeats. With Lelouch gone and Britannia still having the superior military might as well as FEIA, total obliteration is not much of an over exaggeration. The very reason that all the nations came together under the UFN was because of Zero's abilities which was acknowledged by the nations as their only way to counter Britannia.
They may have came together because of Zero and his attributes, but that doesn't mean they NEED him to run it. Which is my whole point on that issue.

See above for the other stuff.
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Old 2009-05-08, 21:21   Link #53
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Originally Posted by Orga777 View Post
They were not exactly out numbered once the UFN formed... You clearly saw the final battle. There was plenty of military support for the UFN.



I didn't say they wouldn't lose.
But they were still a huge threat and had control of a large portion of the world map. Even if Britannia ended up winning in the end, imagine how many resources, men, and supplies would be destroyed.



Not really. If Suzaku got his way and Schneizel accepted the coup attempt, and had the BKs in his back pocket to help him out with that, I could see something completely different going on even with Lelouch taken out of the picture.



They may have came together because of Zero and his attributes, but that doesn't mean they NEED him to run it. Which is my whole point on that issue.

See above for the other stuff.
That is mainly because for the final battle, Lelouch was not running at full military strength that Britannia had when Charles was in command. The knights of round rebelled against him or were unaccounted for and he was forced to put down other rebellions by nobles and their armies.

Men and resources were not really much of a concern when Britannia had FLEIA. And really Schneizel had an easy enough time steamrollering the EU.

My point is that they needed Zero to fight Britannia, and that was the reason they joined up. Because the nations all acknowledged that they could not survive without Zero's power.
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Old 2009-05-08, 21:25   Link #54
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by Orga777 View Post
They were not exactly out numbered once the UFN formed... You clearly saw the final battle. There was plenty of military support for the UFN.
demon said it nicely. Lelouch did not have adequate support at the time. Against the full might of Britannia, they are badly outgunned.

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Originally Posted by Orga777 View Post
I didn't say they wouldn't lose.
But they were still a huge threat and had control of a large portion of the world map. Even if Britannia ended up winning in the end, imagine how many resources, men, and supplies would be destroyed.
Not any more than would have been gained, and far less because of FLEIJA.

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Not really. If Suzaku got his way and Schneizel accepted the coup attempt, and had the BKs in his back pocket to help him out with that, I could see something completely different going on even with Lelouch taken out of the picture.
That's a whole different scenario. Then Suzaku would either control Japan and the BK would get uppity, or Schneizel would cede Japan to them and Suzaku would throw a fit. Either way, someone loses.

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They may have came together because of Zero and his attributes, but that doesn't mean they NEED him to run it. Which is my whole point on that issue.

See above for the other stuff.
They don't need him to run it, they need him if they hope to survive.
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Old 2009-05-08, 21:26   Link #55
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That is mainly because for the final battle, Lelouch was not running at full military strength that Britannia had when Charles was in command. The knights of round rebelled against him or were unaccounted for and he was forced to put down other rebellions by nobles and their armies.
That may be true, but there was still enouh UFN there to give Britannia a hell of a fight for years.

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Men and resources were not really much of a concern when Britannia had FLEIA. And really Schneizel had an easy enough time steamrollering the EU.
And you know what... if Lelouch wasn't betrayed, he wouldn;t have found Nina, and would have lost to FLEIA as well. So even WITH him it wouldn't MATTER in that case.

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My point is that they needed Zero to fight Britannia, and that was the reason they joined up. Because the nations all acknowledged that they could not survive without Zero's power.
Then they would have collapsed right away after Zero vanished. They did not and they stuck together. So I can't buy that reasoning at all.
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Old 2009-05-08, 21:30   Link #56
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That may be true, but there was still enouh UFN there to give Britannia a hell of a fight for years.
That war wouldn't have lasted one year, much less several. They had the bulk of their strength invested in Japan. Once that cracked the rest would fall like dominoes.

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And you know what... if Lelouch wasn't betrayed, he wouldn;t have found Nina, and would have lost to FLEIA as well. So even WITH him it wouldn't MATTER in that case.
If Lelouch wasn't betrayed he would have found some way around it. Schenizel didn't have a flying nuke fortress at the time.

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Then they would have collapsed right away after Zero vanished. They did not and they stuck together. So I can't buy that reasoning at all.
You're missing the point. You equate inability to survive with immediate collapse. This is wrong. Survival means their hope for continued existence in battle with a superior foe, and without Lelouch they did not have that. That doesn't mean they would collapse on the spot, it means they'd get trounced.
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Old 2009-05-08, 21:31   Link #57
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Without Lelouch the UFN was screwed, Xing-ke was intelligent in one battle than spent the rest of the series coughing up blood, and Todoh is just flat out incompetent. Outside of one battle which we have never seen anytime his lead his either got nearly his entire army captured or needed to be saved by Zero.

As for the "Allies" Zero gained through the creation of the UFN that was just ceremonial support, the EU was humiliated and most of its lands where under Britannia control. The amount of support they could give would be pathetic.
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Old 2009-05-08, 21:34   Link #58
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That may be true, but there was still enouh UFN there to give Britannia a hell of a fight for years.



And you know what... if Lelouch wasn't betrayed, he wouldn;t have found Nina, and would have lost to FLEIA as well. So even WITH him it wouldn't MATTER in that case.



Then they would have collapsed right away after Zero vanished. They did not and they stuck together. So I can't buy that reasoning at all.
Not if they were fighting Schneizel without Lelouch. We saw how well the EU held out.

If Lelouch was not betrayed, Schneizel was right on the ship ripe for Geass.

That was because there was a lull in the fighting with Britannia. The Black Knights lost Zero and Britannia did not know the where abouts of it's Emperor. The UFN could be held together in a time of relative peace, but the point me and Morbo is making is that in a fight with Britannia, Lelouch was what held them together.
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Old 2009-05-08, 21:35   Link #59
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That war wouldn't have lasted one year, much less several. They had the bulk of their strength invested in Japan. Once that cracked the rest would fall like dominoes.
Britannia had trouble with a small JLF force in Japan for years. Not to mention terror cells. Imagin a well supplied military force? It would take a while to finish them off fully.

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If Lelouch wasn't betrayed he would have found some way around it. Schenizel didn't have a flying nuke fortress at the time.
I don't think so. The only way he could is if he could get his hands on a warhead himself. And when the flying Doom Fortress was finished, what then?

Quote:
You're missing the point. You equate inability to survive with immediate collapse. This is wrong. Survival means their hope for continued existence in battle with a superior foe, and without Lelouch they did not have that. That doesn't mean they would collapse on the spot, it means they'd get trounced.
I think they could have handled themselves fine. Would they have survived in the end? Probably not, but I think they could have handled themselves fine in battles. heck, I could see them winning a few too. They may not win the war, but it would still be stretching Britannia to its limits.
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Old 2009-05-08, 21:41   Link #60
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Britannia had trouble with a small JLF force in Japan for years. Not to mention terror cells. Imagin a well supplied military force? It would take a while to finish them off fully.



I don't think so. The only way he could is if he could get his hands on a warhead himself. And when the flying Doom Fortress was finished, what then?



I think they could have handled themselves fine. Would they have survived in the end? Probably not, but I think they could have handled themselves fine in battles. heck, I could see them winning a few too. They may not win the war, but it would still be stretching Britannia to its limits.

That's because Britannia wasn't even trying that hard to stop the terrorist squad's until recently.

As soon as Britannia sent in even a fraction of their military might, the Black Knights where easily defeated, and most of them captured.
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