[Manga] Chapter 447 Discussion

[james0246]

Originally Posted by ChojinLocke

Real life examples are out of context and meaning since they do not reflect the subject matter. We might as well be comparing apples and orranges.

Well...besides the fact that you can compare apples and oranges...I understand the point you are trying to make and completely disagree. A hero is simply a person who accomplishes something (generally considered "good" or "just" within the conventions of that society) despite the odds. Consequently, almost anyone at any time can be a hero, and living or dying matters very little to the defintion of being a hero (even in Naruto, living or dying matters very little when trying to define a hero). For instance, Minato was a hero for 'defeating' the Kyuubi (and before that he was a hero for almost single-handedly defeating the Iwa nation), and Naruto is a hero for defeating Pain/Nagato.

Originally Posted by ChojinLocke

And also who said Naruto has to sacrifice his dreams? He will probably achieve everything and die. What's so wrong with dying anyways? Don't get your thinking people..Anyways have your opinions, lol

I have never once said that Naruto must live. Rather, I could see Naruto going the way of Beowulf - dying at a very old age after defeating one last foe (or to use a DB refference, Goku disappearing after defeating Shenlong (or whatever that stupid dragon was from GT)). Rather, I disagree with the notions that either Naruto must die sometime soon, or that Naruto must die to "save" Sasuke, and other such ideas.

[ChojinLocke]

Minato became a hero because he died for his people as did all the rest I mentioned. Dying for a just cause makes you a hero. Jiraya died for his own selfish reasons (and when he died he thought selfish too 'what did I do compared to them' - selfish reasoning) invading a country on his own. Anyways.. wasted arguments
Agree to disagree?

Heroes in Narutoverse become heroes if they die in battle 'protecting' since they are all ninjas not regular average Joes. It is also another shonnen convention. Ok I finished on this topic lol.

Feel free to disagree. I also think you are completely wrong but that's just my opinion. And since I have made my point there is no reason to continue

[Haak]

Originally Posted by ChojinLocke

Jiraya died for his own selfish reasons (and when he died he thought selfish too 'what did I do compared to them' - selfish reasoning) invading a country on his own.

Hmm. Interesting thought.

Couldn't one argue though, that Jiraya wanted to be like them so that he could help people rather than for his own personal satisfaction?

[Spicy~Noodles]

Originally Posted by ChojinLocke

Feel free to disagree. I also think you are completely wrong but that's just my opinion. And since I have made my point there is no reason to continue

That's why I KNOW YOU ARE COMPLETELY WRONG I'm so happy to win this argument. I could never agree with that point there its just... so limited. Naruto is already a hero, and hes not dead. Just look at the "Great Naruto Bridge" it only takes one person to make you a hero.

[Fipskuul]

Ha ha! Jiraiya died for his own selfish reasons When the decision to die came for the sake of obtaining the info on Pain so that Naruto and people of Konoha can use to stop him. Man, what a selfish piece of junk indeed. I am hearing the Konoha people spitting over his grave every single day just to remind him that...."You selfish bas...."

Seems another case of hatred towards another character surfacing under some mask...

[Justin Kim]

Originally Posted by james0246

Well...besides the fact that you can compare apples and oranges...I understand the point you are trying to make and completely disagree. A hero is simply a person who accomplishes something (generally considered "good" or "just" within the conventions of that society) despite the odds. Consequently, almost anyone at any time can be a hero, and living or dying matters very little to the defintion of being a hero (even in Naruto, living or dying matters very little when trying to define a hero). For instance, Minato was a hero for 'defeating' the Kyuubi (and before that he was a hero for almost single-handedly defeating the Iwa nation), and Naruto is a hero for defeating Pain/Nagato.



I have never once said that Naruto must live. Rather, I could see Naruto going the way of Beowulf - dying at a very old age after defeating one last foe (or to use a DB refference, Goku disappearing after defeating Shenlong (or whatever that stupid dragon was from GT)). Rather, I disagree with the notions that either Naruto must die sometime soon, or that Naruto must die to "save" Sasuke, and other such ideas.

But that would defeat the purpose of naming the manga "Naruto." I mean, the whole motive is to show Naruto's growth and his dream to become a hokage. If he were to die as a hokage in the end, then it would make sense - but that wouldn't really be the case. Because, Naruto wished to be a Hokage, but has never mentioned carrying out the duties of a Hokage. I can speculate some kind of future arc after where Naruto will become Hokage, just to see how Konoha's ninjas are doing.

[james0246]

^Beowulf was still called Beowulf even though the titular character died (Hamlet was still called Hamlet, Macbeth was called Macbeth, etc, etc). Naruto doesn't have to live, hell him dying makes perfect sense if this manga is truly his life-story, rather, I was disagreeing with the notion that he has to die to be called a hero.

[Justin Kim]

Originally Posted by james0246

^Beowulf was still called Beowulf even though the titular character died (Hamlet was still called Hamlet, Macbeth was called Macbeth, etc, etc). Naruto doesn't have to live, hell him dying makes perfect sense if this manga is truly his life-story, rather, I was disagreeing with the notion that he has to die to be called a hero.

Yeah I agree with you on that one, what I was implicating was that: It really is obvious that Naruto will live on. Without Naruto, the other characters cannot really have connections or arcs themselves. I mean the whole entire plot would kind of be awkward without a character who has the special ability to befriend.

[james0246]

^Obviously, by the time Naruto dies (if he dies during the course of the manga), all of the other stories would be over, so there is no need to worry about them.

[Spicy~Noodles]

Yeah, Naruto began the story and there's no doubt he will end it too. As the king of his world.

[Justin Kim]

Originally Posted by james0246

^Obviously, by the time Naruto dies (if he dies during the course of the manga), all of the other stories would be over, so there is no need to worry about them.

Then the story shall become, Sasuke! Chidori Chronicles!

[ronin myael]

Originally Posted by Spicy~Noodles

I'm just gonna say it like this: Prepare yourself, I'm gonna go full blast, you might not like what I say, we won't get personal though because now my debate with you has become "not personal." And it may not be over for a very very very very long time. So like I said, get ready. For some balanced debate. (maybe unbalanced, I write alot.)

Let me go ahead and start with this one, with Manny Pacquiao.. I could have used other people I idolize. But in truth his accomplishments have been mostly in the ring. Yet, when I watch his fights, I pray for him. I'm not Filipino, but I want to be just like him. What he does for people, is amazing. When I learn about him and I just watch some videos about him and the things he does outside of the ring, I cry.. I hate to admit I would shed tears for someone I never met. But I was definitely a weaker person before I learned about him. He has been my motivation throughout many recent years, though all my struggles and I thank him every time I am triumphant.

I am living proof, he is a hero, because he is my hero. And he is a leader-type, when he retires from boxing and really gets into politics, there is no question he will win. Manny Pacquiao of 2007 and 2009 in terms of popularity is on a completely different scale. Everyone is human, Obama admitted to smoking marijuana and snorting cocaine. Gambling like in cock-fights and stuff I know about, it's not a big deal. What a big deal is how much he money he spends, especially charities, he gives away so much money his own trainer fears he could give it all away he is heroic with his own personal income. He even gives money to random people on the street, donating an estimated 2million USD, he provides FREE education to the people of his village and has a gym for the poor. When he fights the entire country stops fighting, stops committing crime, even stops moving, I can't name another superstar who can affect a nation like he can. He is the leader type, he has done things to people that not even Naruto has done yet.

Another thing about the government in the Philippines along with virtually all countries in Asia is that the government is extremely corrupt, from top to bottom. Another hero of mine was a political leader, he didn't die in battle. He died of old age. He was one of the bravest SOB you'll probably ever find. He faced off with several great nations in his life and the strongest nation in the world at the time and managed to win. I won't say who he is, a lot of you haven't studied him in depth so I wouldn't expect you to understand. But if your curious, hes a little old man, and the people in his country call him uncle. And no, not Sam... Sam was on the other side.

I completely disagree with your analysis of Naruto. Even Tsunade listens to Naruto. The second he reappeared to fight Pein, he became the leader. Only he was calling the shots. Everyone believes in him, the Hokage's job is actually extremely simple, protect the country and village. Naruto is the most capable individual for that position. Hokage's aren't really king of a nation, they are simply put in charge of the military and police. They don't get elected, as general's in the military don't get elected. They get appointed, and ITS ALWAYS BASED OFF OF THEIR MERIT AND ACCOMPLISHMENTS. None the less, Naruto would win a popular election no doubt after the battle. Not even a second guess, if a 6th Hokage was to be elected not appointed, Naruto would win. Based off of all the information we know about him, he is the obvious choice, no one even comes remotely close after Kakashi died.

What is the destined child of prophecy going to do? Bring peace to the world? First of all, one definition of the "Power" can be defined as how many people, and how much land someone or something controls. Did you ever begin to think that his childhood dreams was the answer to the prophecy in the first place? That the book never changed him at all, it just reassured what he was meant to do in life. The child of prophecy is going to save the world, and the Hokage is the most qualified person to do that EXACT job. How can you save the world if your not trying to protect things everyday. Are you just going to walk around in the woods, talk to strangers and pray that an opportunity to save the world is just gonna pop up in your face and say hello? The Hokage receives all the intelligence they can gather, and employing the best ninjas to gather that info.

If you haven't noticed yet, Naruto has no scouting ability whatsoever. In fact I'm pretty sure being in Sage mode and finding Nagato was the first and only time he has effectively scouted a place. As a single individual without a force and people who recognize you as a leader, you might as well be a doctor, at least he can help people. He may be a one-man army but hiding in the shadows won't save the world. Konoha is one village, and it has been the most powerful and important village in this manga. Saving kages of other villages, assassinating leaders of gangs, holding chunin exams, having the majority of chunins, committing mass genocide, the list could go on and on. Konoha is a very unique village to be the leader of. He can do more as Hokage than as anything else. He could turn all of his ninjas into ambassadors of peace, instead of agents of violence. Being Hokage makes him more likely to save the world, than being merely a sage, or priest. With his loud ass mouth and attitude, he can spread his message much more easily than in any another form.

Wow! I didn't know you're such a Pacman fan. I am Filipino, and I live and breathe the kind of passion the Filipino people have for Manny Pacquiao so I do know what you mean. I do appreciate your support for him, I was actually surprised that Pacquiao was even mentioned in this forums. I guess I didn't really know the extent of his popularity outside of my country.

But I was telling you the truth, not everyone think he is leader-material, he ran for congress and he lost, in his own hometown no less. If he runs for office again, he might win, he might lose. If he wins it's simply because of his charm and popularity. His avid fans will surely vote for him, they will do anything for him, but the rest of the country doubts his capability as a leader. We love him, we're proud of him but we would rather see him box, not sit in the senate or congress and decide the fate of the country. That's the truth.

However, you misunderstood my earlier statements about Naruto. I didn't say he will become a wanderer like Jiraiya, I simply said that Naruto may be destined for greater things, far greater than just being a Hokage. Like Ero-Sennin mentioned before, he may be the heir to the rinnegan savior, the one who will bring about peace in the world. If he becomes Hokage before he fulfills his destiny or whatever it is he is supposed to do, he will need to stay in Konoha, just like Tsunade is now stuck in the village. She no longer has the freedom to go out of the village and perform other tasks other than her duty as Hokage. I just think that the position of Hokage has limits, a Hokage has no jurisdiction in other villages and countries. I feel that Naruto needs to be in a position where he is not tied to any village or country, where there is no limitations to his influence. I'm not insisting on my opinion that Naruto will never become Hokage, I'm simply saying that it is a possibility. Kishi might do exactly the opposite of what everyone else expects. But that's just my opinion.

[Killer Bee]

Originally Posted by Gamma_Sennin

this might add to I think it was Killerbee (from the forums, not the manga) who predicted that the Bijuu which were extracted was a part of the reason pain had so much chakra

Yes ... it was Killerbee ... and you are the man for remembering, Gamma.