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Old 2009-05-12, 16:32   Link #21
Ero-Senn1n
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Originally Posted by kakakka View Post
but how can he back up that answer/equalized with Pain's story.
He does not need to back up anything, since there is no worse solution than Nagato's. I mean mass murdering on regular basis just to create a peaceful utopia for short periods of time is insane, even not doing anything is better than that. But i guess Naruto will explain to him in the next chapter anyway.

Nagato's story is nothing special, we can compare it easily to Kakashi's story, Kakashi lost his father because of the ninja world of hatred and he lost his best friend the same way. And to go even further: Nagato's pain is lesser than Itachi's, he didn't have to kill his own parents and his best friend. We don't know how it came to killing his best friend, but knowing Itachi he would never kill his best friend without somehow being forced to do so.
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Old 2009-05-12, 17:00   Link #22
Fipskuul
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First, Nagato's parents were not a part of the war, and Kakashi didn't kill his best friend. Second, Itachi was ready and he accepted the burden of his killings, however, Nagato wasn't and didn't before he made the final decision on how to bring peace. So, there is not a real comparison between Nagato's case and the others. So try another...
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Old 2009-05-12, 17:13   Link #23
kakakka
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He does not need to back up anything, since there is no worse solution than Nagato's.
What I mean is to balance off Nagato's story/intent. Seems I used the wrong wording (not equalize...I mean neutralized ><)

Quote:
Nagato's story is nothing special, we can compare it easily to Kakashi's story, Kakashi lost his father because of the ninja world of hatred and he lost his best friend the same way. And to go even further: Nagato's pain is lesser than Itachi's, he didn't have to kill his own parents and his best friend. We don't know how it came to killing his best friend, but knowing Itachi he would never kill his best friend without somehow being forced to do so.
I agree, if you put it in that ('they also lost something') perspective.
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Old 2009-05-12, 17:20   Link #24
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Kakashi didn't kill his best friend.
I think he was referring to Itachi, who had to kill in order to prevent civil war.
Quote:
We don't know how it came to killing his best friend
He just had enough resolve, as said in the quoted post. He also killed his lover and his parents~
Quote:
He does not need to back up anything, since there is no worse solution than Nagato's. I mean mass murdering on regular basis just to create a peaceful utopia for short periods of time is insane, even not doing anything is better than that. But i guess Naruto will explain to him in the next chapter anyway.
I think Nagato already knows that, but is desperate for peace and hasn't found a better way. Naruto coming up with something better can surely mean Nagato leaving the Akatsuki and pledging whatever's left of his life to Naruto's cause.
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Old 2009-05-12, 17:22   Link #25
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Naruto coming up with something better can surely mean Nagato leaving the Akatsuki and pledging whatever's left of his life to Naruto's cause.
^This. And what I want to see is how he convince Nagato that there is better way.
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Old 2009-05-12, 18:38   Link #26
Ero-Senn1n
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Originally Posted by Fipskuul View Post
First, Nagato's parents were not a part of the war, and Kakashi didn't kill his best friend.
I think it does not matter if your parents are ninja or ordinary people when they die, you have the same emotional impact when you're just a kid. Kakashi didn't kill, it was Itachi. But remember what happened: Kakashi was the cause of Obito's death, and that had a serious impact on him, some even say that this feeling of guilt is that granted Kakashi the MS eye.

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Originally Posted by Fipskuul View Post
Second, Itachi was ready and he accepted the burden of his killings,
I think this sort of things can never be accepted. To have to kill your parents with your own hands has much more emotional impact than just watching how they are killed by some random ninja.

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Originally Posted by Fipskuul View Post
So, there is not a real comparison between Nagato's case and the others. So try another...
The talk is all about pain and hatred, i don't see why we shouldn't compare the characters based on that, since most of them had a tragic past but it didn't make all of them mass murderers like Nagato. To me it seems that Nagato is telling his story to Naruto in order to justify what he is doing. As if he had a much worse fate than the big nations had, but it's not true, i just took two examples (Kakashi and Itachi) to show that belonging to a great ninja village can bring even worse fate.
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Old 2009-05-12, 18:45   Link #27
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Man oh man. Hope Danzou dies soon.
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Old 2009-05-12, 20:47   Link #28
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Danzou is like the worst character in Naruto, that dude never learns.

Guess this ends the who's Bijuu statue is it Debate.
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Old 2009-05-12, 23:02   Link #29
Sabaku Kyu
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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
The talk is all about pain and hatred, i don't see why we shouldn't compare the characters based on that, since most of them had a tragic past but it didn't make all of them mass murderers like Nagato. To me it seems that Nagato is telling his story to Naruto in order to justify what he is doing. As if he had a much worse fate than the big nations had, but it's not true, i just took two examples (Kakashi and Itachi) to show that belonging to a great ninja village can bring even worse fate.
Well, Itachi did become a mass murderer. A great deal of the people in Naruto with tragic pasts due become really...dysfunctional.

But what makes Nagato different from Itachi and Kakashi is his warped sense of responsibility. Due to the experiences of their lives, Kakashi felt a particularly strong responsibility for his friends, while Itachi felt a strong responsibility for his village. Nagato, thanks to Yahiko (and to a lesser extent Jiraiya) feels responsible for the fate of the entire world. But the experiences of his life have given him the opinion that the shinobi world is just too f**k'd up a place to make his goal feasible by peaceful means. Kakashi and Itachi arguably had more tragic pasts, but neither of them felt that it was their duty to bring peace to the world as the result of their past. It's not the tragedy in his life that makes Nagato the way he is, it's the sheer weight of what he believes is his destiny.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Mold
Danzou is like the worst character in Naruto, that dude never learns.
Danzou is awesome. He crippled Nagato. That is grade-A badassery (even if he did run after that).
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Old 2009-05-12, 23:06   Link #30
Master Mold
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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
Danzou is awesome. He crippled Nagato. That is grade-A badassery (even if he did run after that).
Hanzou was the one who attack Nagato, and Naggto is still standing, soul rippen and stuff, Danzou didn't cripple nobody, that fossil ran like a b*tch. At the site of true badassery.

Danzou, ain't no badassery in him.
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Old 2009-05-12, 23:19   Link #31
Sabaku Kyu
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Hanzou was the one who attack Nagato, and Naggto is still standing, soul rippen and stuff, Danzou didn't cripple nobody, that fossil ran like a b*tch. At the site of true badassery.

Danzou, ain't no badassery in him.
Dammit, their names are too similar. Anyways, yeah, I still wouldn't sleep on Danzou yet.
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Old 2009-05-12, 23:27   Link #32
hamstar
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Ah yes, Jiraiya's first book, I can't wait to see what Naruto has to say on this one..."I wanna be a hero like this one"?,"I'll never give up until I find true peace"?,etc.etc. As for Nagato's jutsu, I think its explanation will have to wait a few chapters, until Konan starts the flashbacks (or just summarises, that works too). Having her say it would relieve Nagato of a second story and would make sense, since she knew about it beforehand.
i think i have it figured out.

Naruto pulled out the book to tell nagato that he still believes in jiraiya ideals, that's why nagato read the book himself. Naruto knows Nagato read the book. This is because the ninja-puppets nagato used were the people from jiraiya's book.
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Old 2009-05-13, 01:20   Link #33
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Originally Posted by hamstar View Post
i think i have it figured out.

Naruto pulled out the book to tell nagato that he still believes in jiraiya ideals, that's why nagato read the book himself. Naruto knows Nagato read the book. This is because the ninja-puppets nagato used were the people from jiraiya's book.
That sounds quite considerate. So that's the link between the puppets and them being the exact persons Jiraiya fought. It makes sense indeed. So Nagato thought he had found a solution, but in the end he failed, falling for an illusion.

Now Naruto's the one to reason him and I guess it had to be someone at least as strong as Nagato, because Nagato had already fallen for his own arrogance and made himself believe he's godlike.
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Old 2009-05-13, 06:15   Link #34
Wargumm1i
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That sounds quite considerate. So that's the link between the puppets and them being the exact persons Jiraiya fought. It makes sense indeed. So Nagato thought he had found a solution, but in the end he failed, falling for an illusion.

Now Naruto's the one to reason him and I guess it had to be someone at least as strong as Nagato, because Nagato had already fallen for his own arrogance and made himself believe he's godlike.
Lol Nagato was far worse than insane.
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Old 2009-05-13, 11:18   Link #35
kenjiharima
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Nagato...now I know your pain. But it's wrong! No one can play as gods!
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Old 2009-05-13, 11:52   Link #36
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no pics yet?
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Old 2009-05-13, 12:26   Link #37
Ero-Senn1n
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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
But what makes Nagato different from Itachi and Kakashi is his warped sense of responsibility. Due to the experiences of their lives, Kakashi felt a particularly strong responsibility for his friends, while Itachi felt a strong responsibility for his village. Nagato, thanks to Yahiko (and to a lesser extent Jiraiya) feels responsible for the fate of the entire world. But the experiences of his life have given him the opinion that the shinobi world is just too f**k'd up a place to make his goal feasible by peaceful means. Kakashi and Itachi arguably had more tragic pasts, but neither of them felt that it was their duty to bring peace to the world as the result of their past. It's not the tragedy in his life that makes Nagato the way he is, it's the sheer weight of what he believes is his destiny.
I agree that his sense of responsability for the whole world did drive him to be such a crazy person. Both Yahiko and Jiraiya were guilty of that, i mean if they didn't talk about the power of the rinnegan and being a messiah Nagato would probably not become such a mass murderer. I think that in the next chapters we will also see how Madara another reason for what Nagato has become. But i still say that Itachi had a worse past, just imagine if Nagato would have to kill his own parents and then kill Konan and Yahiko too. Compared to Itachi Nagato is just selfish kid who has gone mad. What i mean is that Nagato was given a godlike power (the rinnegan) but he is mentally weak, he could not raise up to his fate, and like Hunter explained he ultimately failed in everything, despite being a force of nature.
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Old 2009-05-13, 15:48   Link #38
Mr. Johnny 5
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I'll bet that filthy old geezer Danzou was the student/apprentice of Uchiha Madara.
I smell trouble all the time with those two.
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Old 2009-05-13, 16:15   Link #39
Hunter
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The discussion about Konoha's destruction has been moved here.
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Old 2009-05-13, 16:30   Link #40
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I'll bet that filthy old geezer Danzou was the student/apprentice of Uchiha Madara.
I smell trouble all the time with those two.
I think Dance is almost disciple of Madara, since he follows the teachings of the Mizukage-sama and bloody Mist Village in his Root Ambu.
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