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Old 2009-05-17, 12:51   Link #81
Kitsu
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open-minded social views on pornography

We have such a view o.O Well I have nothing against pornography, if people like then let the people watch it. but isn't that like this in every country.
Oh and yes we germans ban many things almost all Friday the 13th movies are banned in their uncensored form, Mortal Combat 1, GTA Liberty City Stories (uncensored version) Fear, Far Cry (uncensored versions) and many other games. Especially games like "R.A.F" and "Sex Games".
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Old 2009-05-17, 12:55   Link #82
0utf0xZer0
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With the exception of a few people like sa547, people here seem to be discussing this only in terms of games like Rapelay, which is a huge mistake. Clearly, laws concerning visual depictions of rape would also impact a huge number of other titles.

For example, I hear that the original game version of Tsukihime has a scene in which the main character dreams of raping a girl - a scene that many players describe as more creepy than disturbing. I also hear that the game actually gives the player the choice of whether or not to rape a character at one point. One of the choices leads to a bad end and admonishment from the game.

It's also been a while since I read the descriptions of the ero-scenes in the original PC version of Utawarerumono, but I seem to remember that at least one of them could definately be described as female on male rape.

Both games have sizeable (by erogame standards) fanbases that have far more to do with the storyline and gameplay of the games than with rape content, but I can easily see them falling under any ban proposed to deal with stuff like Rapelay. Proposing widespread bans to deal with a particular product or group of products that some find offensive is a very bad idea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by james0246
Specifically, American shows like Law and Order: SVU which routinely has women and children raped and abused for the sake of entertainment, or to reach back into the archives, movies such as The Accused, Kids or American Psycho (which some may say make rape "sexy"), or what is possibly the "best" rape scene, Boys Don't Cry.
If what I've read about American Psycho on tvtropes is correct, the original book contains at least one scene that wouldn't be out of place in a guro work and makes anything I've heard about Rapelay seem quite tame in comparison.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kusa-San View Post
Futhermore, for me, people who enjoy playing rape game, really need to see a specialist because it's cleary not right to enjoy such disgusting thing.
You do realize that a significant portion of the general population has at least ocassional rape fantasies, right?

As with any dark fantasies a person may harbour, there's only a small portion of that group I'd recommend counseling to.
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Old 2009-05-17, 13:08   Link #83
Hs Vi Germania
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How should we react to visual gameplays' featuring disturbing themes?

You should simply ignore it if you don't want to bother with it.
There will always be guys who get excited when they see blooding people, corpses ...
I have nothing against it. Sometimes I also watch bloody films, horror films...(pornos? no not anymore )
And like Kitsu mentioned, here in Germany nearly everthing is forbidden and get banned, I think those measures dismiss their true objectives.
If you ban it all it just will get more popular and I see no problem because the most series/films you see contents like that are supposed to be like that.
Why should someone watch CSI or other criminal series if they don't want to see dead people. That would make no sense.

I think the whole problematic has been overdone a bit (on publicity) and as long as the content is legal and suitable for the time it's broadcasted, I will accept it.
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Old 2009-05-17, 13:26   Link #84
izmosmolnar
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@0utf0xZer0. Exactly the point I'm trying to make. If they are going to ban every Visual Novel remotely connected to rape, I'd have to give up a significant percentage of the VNs I have on my shelve. Even though the actual amount of the rape we could think of regarding those is like less than 0,01% text of the whole game, they represent most of the time something bad, and they are hardly inspiring me to do the very same things in the real world.

Why deal the Visual Novel sector with such a blow anyway? It's like the smallest portion of the whole software-entertainment. There is like 20x times as much people playing MMORPG-s 16 hour/day, and probably almost the same amount plays with gory themed shooting games (it's just my own estimation from the top of my head).

(Small note: Thank God Hungary doesn't even care much about VN-s and such, and even if they enforce something in the whole EU, it's going to take like years when it's finally going to have any effect here.)
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Old 2009-05-17, 13:29   Link #85
Kitsu
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Quote:
Why deal the Visual Novel sector with such a blow anyway? It's like the smallest portion of the whole software-entertainment.
Because of that reason!! It's the smallest, attacking big portions of entertainment will end in vain
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Old 2009-05-17, 13:29   Link #86
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Originally Posted by Kagedanji View Post
2008-2009
  • Eroge enthusiast boy is caught playing game by proactive mother
  • Proactive mother is disgusted, tells all her friends, complains to news
  • News sources take complaints and use it as news material
  • Equality Now reads news and rages
  • Japan is attacked for making a game that was legally released in their country 3 years ago
I really dislike that way of talking. Here in France, you can also find a lot of *fathers* who are against those things, want products banned, etc. And I guess in america this is the same.

It might be just an expression, but I just feel like saying that it is annoying.

Besides that, as a woman, I can at least try to understand that inner feelings to try to protect its childrens. Men play a role in insemination, but they don't bear the baby. I tend to think that the link between a mother towards her child is strong, one of the stronger that can exist. Yet, it doesn't mean that they should be blamed like that so easily by the people who don't understand that or don't care.

The mothers this, the mothers that ; god dammit.

Pffff...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
(well, Narona is approaching it from her legal background more than anything).
I merely tried to explain the correlation between liberty, democracy, laws, rights, and how to deal with all of that in a court of laws and the problems we can encounter since we live in a democracy that just don't deal with crimes and such like in a Dictatorship.

In France, one *banned* thing is child pornography. There is a lot to say about how we deal with that. But I don't feel like explaining it.

Most people are ok with it, and so not see that as an anti-democratic move.

I would add that a democracy is not an anarchy with total freedom (I know I said it many times but I think it should be repeated). You can find thoughts and analysis from philosophers about freedom since the ancient times.

Some/many people think that we should not do something just because we find something bad ona morals pov. But if you go as far as claiming that for everything, you know humans didn't appear on earth with rules that have to be followed. So you could also say that we ban murder irl just because it's just *morally* bad in the eyes of many people.

Quote:
Actually, you *are* allowed to say such racist things in public (though people may also express themselves by throwing tomatos at you). If you work for the military or most any company though -- you're now a representative of that organization and must blend seamlessly into it.
Not in France. Dun dun dun. Oh we are so anti-democratic. (To be fair it's not so simple, I should explain how we deal with racism, but maybe you could google it instead?)

Sorry for the sarcasms Anyways, I fully agree with the French law on that matter.

Last edited by Narona; 2009-05-17 at 13:41.
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Old 2009-05-17, 13:31   Link #87
TinyRedLeaf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitsu View Post
open-minded social views on pornography

We have such a view o.O Well I have nothing against pornography, if people like then let the people watch it. but isn't that like this in every country.
Well, maybe that's just a stereotype I inherited back from my student days in Britain. German porn seemed to rank just one step behind Swedish blonde bombshells back then (or is it the other way round? Either way, both countries had a repuation for, ahem, elevated levels of libido in Britain back then). I do recall that nudism is considered very normal in Bavaria, as I learnt to my great embarrassment when I wandered into Munich's English Garden at the height of summer.

Singapore, on the other hand, had just meted out maximum fines to a couple who *gasp* dared to walk down a popular drinking spot in their birthday suits. Right or wrong? Who decides? Life, in practice, is seldom close to the ideal.
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Old 2009-05-17, 13:33   Link #88
Kitsu
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Actually, you *are* allowed to say such racist things in public
Well, I don't know if your gonna be punished for that in germany but we banned a party which wasn't quite racist ,it had rudiments, okay it had many rudiments and wanted much more stricter rules for foreigner to move to germany

Nudism~ you mean FKK (freiKörperKultur=FreeBodyCulture)? Well...that's bavaria. Many germans actually don't count it as a german state xDD And I don't know one who actually does FKK, my parents and grand parents did. But the "new generation" is rather "ashamed" and "prude". Pupils actually refuse to shower at school after PE
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Old 2009-05-17, 14:00   Link #89
0utf0xZer0
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitsu View Post
Because of that reason!! It's the smallest, attacking big portions of entertainment will end in vain
Thinking like this is why small subcultures are always the ones that get screwed by censorship laws. See my earlier posts regarding the applicability of Canadian child porn law to really tame stuff like Air that just happens to feature ero scenes involving girls that are what, 16?

And since you haven't really responded to my previous post, I'm going to ask you this directly: what is your opinion on banning games where depiction of rape makes up an extremely small portion of the game? What about if it has actual relevance to the plot? What about when it's specifically made to be disturbing to the player?
Based on previous laws I've seen regarding fictional porn, I'm pretty sure that any law banning them would cover ALL such material.
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Old 2009-05-17, 14:06   Link #90
Anh_Minh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Narona View Post
I really dislike that way of talking. Here in France, you can also find a lot of *fathers* who are against those things, want products banned, etc. And I guess in america this is the same.

It might be just an expression, but I just feel like saying that it is annoying.

Besides that, as a woman, I can at least try to understand that inner feelings to try to protect its childrens. Men play a role in insemination, but they don't bear the baby. I tend to think that the link between a mother towards her child is strong, one of the stronger that can exist. Yet, it doesn't mean that they should be blamed like that so easily by the people who don't understand that or don't care.

The mothers this, the mothers that ; god dammit.

Pffff...
Make up your mind. Are mothers special or not?

/me is reminded of that case where a woman killed her kids and stuffed them in the fridge. And of similar cases...

Quote:
I merely tried to explain the correlation between liberty, democracy, laws, rights, and how to deal with all of that in a court of laws and the problems we can encounter since we live in a democracy that just don't deal with crimes and such like in a Dictatorship.

In France, one *banned* thing is child pornography. There is a lot to say about how we deal with that. But I don't feel like explaining it.
Because it's an economy based on the suffering of children. You've yet to prove raping pixels hurt anyone.

Quote:
Most people are ok with it, and so not see that as an anti-democratic move.

I would add that a democracy is not an anarchy with total freedom (I know I said it many times but I think it should be repeated). You can find thoughts and analysis from philosophers about freedom since the ancient times.
There's a lot of room between "anarchy" and "thought police". We should be careful not to lean too far one way or the other.

Quote:
Some/many people think that we should not do something just because we find something bad ona morals pov. But if you go as far as claiming that for everything, you know humans didn't appear on earth with rules that have to be followed. So you could also say that we ban murder irl just because it's just *morally* bad in the eyes of many people.
But that's just it. How immoral is it to play rape games? It may be in bad taste and disgusting, and say something about our fellow men that we'd rather not know, but it doesn't hurt anyone.

Quote:
Not in France. Dun dun dun. Oh we are so anti-democratic. (To be fair it's not so simple, I should explain how we deal with racism, but maybe you could google it instead?)
Yeah. You know, I wouldn't take the democracy of our country as an axiom. Who the hell but us and those who want something from us call us "le pays des droits de l'homme"?
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Old 2009-05-17, 14:13   Link #91
Kitsu
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Thinking like this is why small subcultures are always the ones that get screwed by censorship laws.
It's not the way I think, it's the reasoning behind it.

I personally don't like games featuring rape, but
if it is shown in a negative way and has a actually relevance to the plot (cause if it doesn't it is rather pointless and doesn't show raping in it live changing cruel meaning) I let it "slip", it's "okay" since it's fiction.
But those games like "rapelay" are clearly going over my tolerance and acceptance point. That's my opinion.
Quote:
Based on previous laws I've seen regarding fictional porn, I'm pretty sure that any law banning them would cover ALL such material.
I don't think so, since rape is actually present in many fictions, in my movies, games and books. It's such a high percentage of media that a law can't be enforced. Banning things is a really difficult process and just because you ban a few games with an explicit content ("Rape-games") doesn't mean you'll ban all games and media featuring "rape"
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Old 2009-05-17, 14:23   Link #92
james0246
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Originally Posted by Kusa-San View Post
Well it will be my last post in this thread because I find some post really schocking. Saying that Law and Order: SVU and game raping is the same is extremely dangerous for me. Law and Order: SVU teach you that rape is really bad, really terrible and all. And that teach you that there is person who are here to fight against this kind of disgusting behaviour. A rape game just teach you that rapping is good. And you're telling me that's the same thing ? What the Hell is that ?
You seem to have misunderstood my point concerning SVU. To go back to the book Cunt by Inga Muscia, the author claims that any form of rape shown as/in entertainment, even if the perpetrator is caught afterwards, is a promotion of rape for the simply reason that the program/book/game/movie/etc has delibrately built its internal structure around the idea that a woman has to be raped in order for their to be any entertainment. So, I was asking KarumA what his/her definition of rape-in-media was, and where his/her boundries were placed in regards to rape as shown in RapeLay vs. rape as shown in a number of American films and television shows (I personally do not care about SVU or RapeLay, and I draw no real connection between the 2).
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Old 2009-05-17, 14:32   Link #93
0utf0xZer0
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitsu View Post
It's not the way I think, it's the reasoning behind it.

I personally don't like games featuring rape, but
if it is shown in a negative way and has a actually relevance to the plot (cause if it doesn't it is rather pointless and doesn't show raping in it live changing cruel meaning) I let it "slip", it's "okay" since it's fiction.
But those games like "rapelay" are clearly going over my tolerance and acceptance point. That's my opinion.

I don't think so, since rape is actually present in many fictions, in my movies, games and books. It's such a high percentage of media that a law can't be enforced. Banning things is a really difficult process and just because you ban a few games with an explicit content ("Rape-games") doesn't mean you'll ban all games and media featuring "rape"
How do you decide if a rape is "shown in a negative way"?

Now I'm going to get really specific and take a look at the original PC version of Utawarerumono. Now, someone correct me if I'm wrong on this, since my information regarding the scene in question is second hand, but one of the ero-scenes in the game involves a posessed girl using a freeze spell on the main character then having her way with him. Given that this is an ero-RPG, I think it's pretty safe to say that it's both played for erotic value and somewhat graphic.

It's also the only such scene in a 25-40 hour long RPG. So my question is whether you think that this game should also be banned, and if not how a law should be worded to differentiate between games like Utawarerumono and games like Rapelay?
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Old 2009-05-17, 14:47   Link #94
Kitsu
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Well, now I wanna know that aftermath, does that girl (if she remembers) feel bad or the time she gets told what she did? Is the guy after that traumatized? or is he all like "oh how cares if she raped me!" Background and aftermath are one of the critical points in such decisions. Of course it's for the erotic value but if it shows
"Well it might seem good while you do it (and sometimes this isn't even portrayed) but after it it ruins your life"
It's "acceptable". That's my opinion at least.

of course it's gonna be difficult and many persons from different backgrounds and views would have to decide if something is acceptable or not. You could say something like this would never happen but well people should never loose faith
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Old 2009-05-17, 14:58   Link #95
izmosmolnar
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/\
Spoiler for slightly offtopic:

/offtopic

Last edited by izmosmolnar; 2009-05-17 at 15:09.
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Old 2009-05-17, 15:59   Link #96
0utf0xZer0
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Originally Posted by Kitsu View Post
Well, now I wanna know that aftermath, does that girl (if she remembers) feel bad or the time she gets told what she did? Is the guy after that traumatized? or is he all like "oh how cares if she raped me!" Background and aftermath are one of the critical points in such decisions. Of course it's for the erotic value but if it shows
"Well it might seem good while you do it (and sometimes this isn't even portrayed) but after it it ruins your life"
It's "acceptable". That's my opinion at least.

of course it's gonna be difficult and many persons from different backgrounds and views would have to decide if something is acceptable or not. You could say something like this would never happen but well people should never loose faith
Given the "Rape is okay when it is female on male" double standard I'd be seriously surprised if the aftermath was depicted with any sort of realism. The reason I think the game is defensible is because it's a well regarded visual novel/RPG hybrid that offers the player a lot more than just sex scenes. Those make up only a small portion of the game as a whole.

And if Utawarerumono is something you'd consider acceptable, how do you intend to get it around a ban on explicit depictions of rape? Clearly it contains one.

I'm pretty sure I could make this same case for other highly regarded visual novels that contain rape as well (such as Tsukihime), but I don't know as much about the rape content in those.
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Old 2009-05-17, 16:10   Link #97
blue skies
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Even though I can't fathom why anyone would ever want to play something that simulates rape, I don't think banning these games will accomplish anything at all. There will still be violence towards women, people will still be raped, nothing will change. Getting rid of a game does nothing to solve the real problem, although every time I hear about something like rape sims, I think "wtf, why does this exist?"

Last I heard, the link between violence or sexual violence in media (any media, not just video games) and violent behavior of viewers is unproven. All that's really known is that some media may contribute to violent behavior in certain people in certain situations. From what I understand, a lot of these games are almost laughably out of touch with reality. They're pure fantasy. I highly doubt some idiotic rape sim game is going to turn people into rapists any more than something like Doom is going to make students go on shooting rampages. Fantasy =/= reality, and if someone can't see the line between the two, that's not the fault of a game. That's a serious psychological problem, and chances are someone like that doesn't need the help of violent media to push them over the edge.

I guess what I'm getting at is that what you like to play/watch/do in your free time in your own home is none of the government's business, unless it's child pornography or donating to a terrorist organization or something. I like some anime with incest themes and love movies with a good bloodbath as much as the next girl. Does that mean I condone that kind of behavior in real life or would practice it myself? Absolutely not. I have tons of friends who play Grand Theft Auto, where you get rewarded for killing cops, stealing stuff and beating the living daylights out of prostitutes. They're all pretty normal, non-psychotic people who would never think of hurting anyone. These rape games aren't exactly mainstream; you'll never see them being sold in your local Wal-Mart or Gamestop. I don't know how many people play them or would be interested, but even if they're banned, aren't people still going to find ways around the law and play and sell them regardless? Kind of like they do with everything else that's illegal?

I remember being shocked around a year ago when I found out these things even existed. And frankly, I do find them offensive and incredibly insensitive and disrespectful to women and anyone who has had to go through something as horrific and dehumanizing as rape. I also find crap like Manhunt disgusting (and of course, some of you would be offended by what I watch and read). But the thing is, they're games. Games don't turn people into rapists and serial killers; people like that are already phenomenally fucked up and will do what they want to do. They don't need a game to influence them. Offensive, stupid shit? Yes. Harmful to others? Not particularly, imho.

If people really want to make a difference, they should focus on the real problem and not unrealistic, stupid little games (which most of the population probably doesn't even know about) that some people enjoy playing in their private lives.
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Old 2009-05-17, 20:06   Link #98
SaintessHeart
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Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
Playing devil's advocate here. While comprehensive sex education helps to guide kids towards wholesome sexual behaviour, games like the one described above doesn't make the learning process any easier, does it?
The girls DON'T get pregnant. If they do you lose, and the elder sister (Aoi) pushes you out onto the train track and you die.

You don't score points in using violence. There aren't even options for violence! Just the few regular sexual positions, and there isn't even an option for forced penetration!

That review is probably another retarded wiki-cut Duke Nukem 3D styled review. Made by idiots, for the idiots.

P.S I played the game. IMO it shouldn't even be considered hardcore.
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Old 2009-05-17, 20:12   Link #99
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Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
The girls DON'T get pregnant. If they do you lose, and the elder sister (Aoi) pushes you out onto the train track and you die.

You don't score points in using violence. There aren't even options for violence! Just the few regular sexual positions, and there isn't even an option for forced penetration!

That review is probably another retarded wiki-cut Duke Nukem 3D styled review. Made by idiots, for the idiots.

P.S I played the game. IMO it shouldn't even be considered hardcore.
Somehow, that feels like the best evidence of all in this discussion. Even just within this thread, I feel that the game may have become overhyped.
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Old 2009-05-17, 21:20   Link #100
rio
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Originally Posted by Jazzrat View Post

Other than the base human desire, I would guess it's a form of backlash by men as women start threading on what was considered men's territory in society. The desire to dominate over them might have stem from their insecurity and confusion of their role in society.

I belief much of these gender related crime might arise from the change of their role. Men could no longer rely on the dependecies of women to reaffirm their position in society and women are faced with the freedom of not financially relying on their spouse but yet, socially obligated to raise and nurture their children.
I have to say that i was very emotional when i wrote the post , i knew that i was, but kept writing because i wanted people to know how i felt about the problem .
But, to augue this problem well, i think i have to be rational and fair .

I agree your guess that it's backlash by men as women start threading on what was men's territory in society. Men want to support the family financially but most men can't do without the wife's salary because of the change of the society so they are frustrated and feel insecurity.

What's more, men are just afraid of women's power. Even if not all women have equal or more power than all men, certain women defintetly have more power than certain men , that's because of difference of the ability within the each race. So,(certain) men aren't feeling safe as their position will be taken over by (certain) women.

Quote:
Curbing rape related material is like putting a bandage on a gunshot wound. It might stop the bleeding but it wont remove the bullet from it. Perhaps a better solution is to tackle the problem at heart by getting the people to accept a gender equal society

Yes.. but how ? Things are already solid and women here have been making efforts, but nothing has changed. How should we do from now?

But , one thing that can melt the solid society is, that voices from overseas.
Japanese society has a lot of influence from overseas, and very weak and sensitive to views from overseas.
So, i thought having such conversation and caution from other countries' people are very good remedy to the problem.
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Last edited by rio; 2009-05-18 at 02:18. Reason: Mis words;
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