AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > General > General Chat

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2013-06-04, 16:45   Link #181
Ithekro
Warning
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 37
It is the image. A lone man standing up to a column of tanks. That is powerful stuff.
__________________
Dessler Soto, Banzai! Signature by ganbaru
Rena's Saimoe Take Home List 2014: Dairenji Suzuka.Misawa Maho.
Ithekro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-06-04, 17:32   Link #182
LeoXiao
提倡自我工業化
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Vereinigte Staaten
Age: 22
Death by tank treads because economic reform. Riiight.

Might as well draw something.



"I'm not your doll."
LeoXiao is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-06-04, 19:58   Link #183
ArchmageXin
Master of Coin
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeoXiao View Post
Death by tank treads because economic reform. Riiight.

Might as well draw something.

-Snip crappy drawing about a crappy anime without spoiler tags-

"I'm not your doll."
I was there in Bejing when it happened. I can read what was on the banners. The college students called for westernized freedom, but the average joes called for end of inflation and return to Maoist ideas. I still remember signs that call for Deng's death because he betrayed Mao's ideals as well as signs that called for student revolts.

Were you even born yet?

Also, the source I cited is Bloomberg, the most widely used news source for Wall Street, are you going to claim it is a communist front too?
ArchmageXin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-06-04, 20:56   Link #184
LeoXiao
提倡自我工業化
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Vereinigte Staaten
Age: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchmageXin View Post
I was there in Bejing when it happened. I can read what was on the banners. The college students called for westernized freedom, but the average joes called for end of inflation and return to Maoist ideas. I still remember signs that call for Deng's death because he betrayed Mao's ideals as well as signs that called for student revolts.
Yes, and? They didn't deserve to be crushed by tanks. When Occupy Wall Street happened I didn't really agree with them but I don't think the US Army should have been sent in to put them down. 1st Amendment and all that.

Quote:
Also, the source I cited is Bloomberg, the most widely used news source for Wall Street, are you going to claim it is a communist front too?
It's not about your source, it's about you defending the crushing of demonstrators with tanks.
LeoXiao is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-06-04, 23:16   Link #185
ArchmageXin
Master of Coin
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeoXiao View Post
Yes, and? They didn't deserve to be crushed by tanks. When Occupy Wall Street happened I didn't really agree with them but I don't think the US Army should have been sent in to put them down. 1st Amendment and all that.


It's not about your source, it's about you defending the crushing of demonstrators with tanks.
What is so immoral about using tanks? Would it been better if they were ran over by Bulldozers, as in Israel? Or mauled down with machine gun fire, as if they were in South Korea? Or shot from armed men on flatbeds, as in Taiwan?
ArchmageXin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-06-04, 23:39   Link #186
LeoXiao
提倡自我工業化
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Vereinigte Staaten
Age: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchmageXin View Post
What is so immoral about using tanks? Would it been better if they were ran over by Bulldozers, as in Israel? Or mauled down with machine gun fire, as if they were in South Korea? Or shot from armed men on flatbeds, as in Taiwan?
How about not killing them at all?

In South Korea and Taiwan they have a functioning democracy now. The crimes of the KMT and the ROK authoritarians are remembered and openly criticized. I don't agree with what the Israelis are doing. But the CCP is still in power, still represses freedom of expression and assembly (often violently), and apologists like you are whitewashing its actions.

Make a functioning argument next time instead of splitting hairs.
LeoXiao is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-06-05, 01:24   Link #187
DonQuigleone
Knight Errant
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 26
I think most of all the Tiananmen square incident was highly ironic. Let's not forget that the CCP considers it's "founding moment" to be the May 4th movement, a student protest movement that also took place in and around Tiananmen square and was also ruthlessly put down by military forced.

The "revolutionary" government of China came full circle and put down the very same kind of revolutionaries that would go on to form their own party 70 years earlier.

It's like 1984, war is peace, truth is lies, and revolutionaries are counter-revolutionaries.

At this stage, I don't see how any educated Chinese person could take the CCP's "revolutionary" credentials seriously.
DonQuigleone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-06-05, 05:23   Link #188
Dragonkid11
A random-man
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchmageXin View Post
What is so immoral about using tanks? Would it been better if they were ran over by Bulldozers, as in Israel? Or mauled down with machine gun fire, as if they were in South Korea? Or shot from armed men on flatbeds, as in Taiwan?
I think you misunderstood the post there.

Killing people is bad no matter what method you use,no matter what flag you are waving,no matter what reason you have in your mind.
Dragonkid11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-06-05, 09:00   Link #189
ArchmageXin
Master of Coin
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragonkid11 View Post
I think you misunderstood the post there.

Killing people is bad no matter what method you use,no matter what flag you are waving,no matter what reason you have in your mind.
Oh? But you don't see anniversary for thousands of thousands of other atrocities having "anniversaries" in the international press right?

Quote:
In South Korea and Taiwan they have a functioning democracy now.
You don't agree with "what Israel" is doing? LOL So selective outrage is selective.

Also, what hell were raised when SK and Taiwan were NOT democracies? READ: NOTHING~ They were America's best buddies. I, as joe the leader, can mow down thousands with machine gun fire, lock them up without trial, or rain death on their heads with drones, it will all ok cause I am friend with America, or a "functional democracy."
Quote:
and apologists like you are whitewashing its actions
I was there, watching. But I also know how fascinating how in the International media's ultra short memories, people can go "remember Tienanmen" 20+ years later, but a million other horrors left forgotten or written off, even when their doers are still doing it as we speak.

Last edited by monir; 2013-06-05 at 15:15.
ArchmageXin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-06-05, 11:18   Link #190
Ithekro
Warning
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 37
The power of images. Most other such things don't have some really iconic imagry to go with them.

The image of a man facing off against a column of tanks is a powerful image. That is what stays with people.
__________________
Dessler Soto, Banzai! Signature by ganbaru
Rena's Saimoe Take Home List 2014: Dairenji Suzuka.Misawa Maho.
Ithekro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-06-05, 15:51   Link #191
LeoXiao
提倡自我工業化
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Vereinigte Staaten
Age: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchmageXin View Post
Oh? But you don't see anniversary for thousands of thousands of other atrocities having "anniversaries" in the international press right?
That's right. The students at Tiananmen are lucky to be remembered, compared with the tens of millions of peasants who died in the Great Leap Forward, the teachers who were humiliated and sometimes killed by Red Guards, the "bad elements" who were systematically executed or committed suicide because of the ideological atmosphere, the ex-KMT solders who were sent with little or no weapons to fight in Korea, etc. The list is pretty long. Why the hell should we remember those brats over the millions of their countrymen the CCP killed earlier?

Quote:
You don't agree with "what Israel" is doing? LOL So selective outrage is selective.

Also, what hell were raised when SK and Taiwan were NOT democracies? READ: NOTHING~ They were America's best buddies. I, as joe the leader, can mow down thousands with machine gun fire, lock them up without trial, or rain death on their heads with drones, it will all ok cause I am friend with America, or a "functional democracy."
Avoiding the argument by waving at America's and its Cold War allies' faults doesn't do anything to lessen the gravity of the Tiananmen Massacre and its context.

SK changed after protests. Its government backed down and reformed to allow for more popular agency. The same thing happened in Taiwan. When we think of those countries, of course we should think of sacrifices that their people made. Relatively speaking, however, they are not as relevant anymore because their struggles have been concluded. But China is an ongoing thing.

I'll reiterate, since it seems you didn't read. In the ROK, the liberals certainly remember figures like Jeon Tae-il and the students who protested against the dictatorship. This is discussed openly and plays a role in modern ROK politics. The daughter of Park Chung-hee has apologized to the victims of her father's regime. In Taiwan, the DPP and other opposition figures rallies around the past actions and sacrifices of the Taiwanese who opposed KMT dictatorship and suppression of regional culture. The KMT itself has also reformed. China is, however, a one-party state. Nobody can openly discuss Tiananmen (or any other atrocity, unless it was committed by Americans or Japanese) or assemble a group to make a demonstration. Even if people do remember the bad things, they just go "so what?", or "shut up, the CCP made China powerful!" What a slave mentality!

Quote:
I was there, watching. But I also know how fascinating how in the International media's ultra short memories, people can go "remember Tienanmen" 20+ years later, but a million other horrors left forgotten or written off, even when their doers are still doing it as we speak.
By your logic, it would be bad to tell Japan to make their schoolchildren learn about the Nanjing Massacre, right? Because there are so many other horrors that happened in mankind's long history.

You just want us to shut up because the facts are inconvenient to your political conditioning.
LeoXiao is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-06-05, 16:43   Link #192
Ithekro
Warning
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 37
Israel changes as well. Before there was no seperate Palastine, just areas of Israel with a lot of Arabs that kept fighting under the PLO. There was not a two state solution even on the table. Things changed there. But it also allows Israel to treat Palastine as another country and respond to attacks as if another country attacked them.

As one of out Israeli posters said, The reason Israel has not just killed on the Palastinians and taken the land is because they do not want to be responsible for genocide like what was done to them so many times in the last 2000 and more years.
__________________
Dessler Soto, Banzai! Signature by ganbaru
Rena's Saimoe Take Home List 2014: Dairenji Suzuka.Misawa Maho.
Ithekro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-06-05, 19:33   Link #193
ArchmageXin
Master of Coin
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Quote:
Avoiding the argument by waving at America's and its Cold War allies' faults doesn't do anything to lessen the gravity of the Tiananmen Massacre and its context.
Actually it kind of does, and some of them aren't even cold war. Most of them are done today. It prove a point. It is OK to massacre, murder, imprison if you happened to be an "ally of democracy, or a democracy" Because you are doing it in the name of....democracy. If you believe it is wrong to gun down protestors, then there should a international memorial news week to just about everyone.


Quote:
That's right. The students at Tiananmen are lucky to be remembered, compared with the tens of millions of peasants who died in the Great Leap Forward, the teachers who were humiliated and sometimes killed by Red Guards, the "bad elements" who were systematically executed or committed suicide because of the ideological atmosphere, the ex-KMT solders who were sent with little or no weapons to fight in Korea, etc. The list is pretty long. Why the hell should we remember those brats over the millions of their countrymen the CCP killed earlier?
There is a difference being remembered and being used as a political tool. That is what they are good for. A feel good article on how evil China is. If those kids were anyone but Chinese attacked by the Evil Communist Government, who would give a two dime concern?

Quote:
SK changed after protests. Its government backed down and reformed to allow for more popular agency. The same thing happened in Taiwan. When we think of those countries, of course we should think of sacrifices that their people made. Relatively speaking, however, they are not as relevant anymore because their struggles have been concluded. But China is an ongoing thing.
But were they pressured, sanctioned, with NGOS and governments denouncing them all the way? The answer: NO. They were given their own lee-ways and let to reform on themselves. Heck, even if Taiwan is still an one party dictatorship, I bet America still would sing its praises as a critical ally.

All those apologies were done internally, on its own time. Taiwan took over 50 years to recognize their little Tienanmen. And they were allowed to do it on their own time. But China has to get lit up every year by the International Press for "remember Tienanmen" which does nothing but harden the government to RESIST apologizing.

Quote:
By your logic, it would be bad to tell Japan to make their schoolchildren learn about the Nanjing Massacre, right? Because there are so many other horrors that happened in mankind's long history.
By my logic, there should be a day where the World Press press write about Anniversary of Nanjing, one for 59', One for Tiananmen, one for the Amernians, one for the Night of Shattered glass, every great atrocities done because of brother against brother in senseless violence.

Quote:
You just want us to shut up because the facts are inconvenient to your political conditioning
.

You just want to toot a little horn about how important is for everyone to bash China, no matter how much progress China made since 1989. I mean, I am not the one who necro a thread from 2009!
ArchmageXin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-06-05, 21:51   Link #194
LeoXiao
提倡自我工業化
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Vereinigte Staaten
Age: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchmageXin View Post
Actually it kind of does, and some of them aren't even cold war. Most of them are done today. It prove a point. It is OK to massacre, murder, imprison if you happened to be an "ally of democracy, or a democracy" Because you are doing it in the name of....democracy. If you believe it is wrong to gun down protestors, then there should a international memorial news week to just about everyone.
Read my post. I wasn't supporting dictatorship. You seem to have gotten the opposite meaning out of my post. I don't think that people were gunned down in the name of democracy. They were gunned down to continue dictatorship. But those dictators weren't brutal enough, or could not be brutal enough, so they collapsed and gave way to democracy.

Quote:
There is a difference being remembered and being used as a political tool. That is what they are good for. A feel good article on how evil China is. If those kids were anyone but Chinese attacked by the Evil Communist Government, who would give a two dime concern?
This is nonsense. You claim that the West as a whole only wants to criticize China. What does that have ANYTHING to do with what actually happens in China? You're running away from the topic.

Quote:
But were they pressured, sanctioned, with NGOS and governments denouncing them all the way? The answer: NO. They were given their own lee-ways and let to reform on themselves. Heck, even if Taiwan is still an one party dictatorship, I bet America still would sing its praises as a critical ally.
Those countries are tiny in comparison with China. Take all the criticism the USA gets (much of it is deserved) and it'll make China look respected. When the Iraq war happened, like 500,000 people protested in Paris. I was there for that. A lot of people both in America and abroad criticize it constantly. Why? Because the US is the world's most powerful nation. What it does affects everyone.

Don't like me complaining about Tiananmen and the larger problem that is the CCP's one-party rule? Well excuse me for being of Chinese descent and caring about that country.

Quote:
But China has to get lit up every year by the International Press for "remember Tienanmen" which does nothing but harden the government to RESIST apologizing.
Quote:
By my logic, there should be a day where the World Press press write about Anniversary of Nanjing, one for 59', One for Tiananmen, one for the Amernians, one for the Night of Shattered glass, every great atrocities done because of brother against brother in senseless violence.
The anniversary of the Iraq War gets lit up every year by the "International press" as well. Think this is only China's issue? You make the incredibly foolish assumption that only Tiananmen is remembered.

Quote:
You just want to toot a little horn about how important is for everyone to bash China, no matter how much progress China made since 1989. I mean, I am not the one who necro a thread from 2009!
Of course it is important. And it's not bashing China, it's bashing the CCP and one-party rule. Otherwise it's like saying that if you bash Obama you're bashing America.

As for progress, it exists, but I don't see how the Tiananmen Massacre had to happen for it to succeed. Plenty of countries have experienced economic growth without killing protesters.

Also, you are the only one to complain about a necro. Maybe, had I made a new thread, you would've said something like "lolol why didn't you just use the old one?" Again, your only motive is to get me to shut up. Just like the CCP itself. Even if you claim to to not support it, your way of writing follows its typical patterns.
LeoXiao is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-06-05, 22:24   Link #195
ArchmageXin
Master of Coin
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Quote:
This is nonsense. You claim that the West as a whole only wants to criticize China. What does that have ANYTHING to do with what actually happens in China? You're running away from the topic.
No I am not. It is a selective use of outrage. Look at Egypt. Up until the nth hour with Tatir square protest, America and west were still friend of Mubarak even as protesters were getting tear gassed. If Chang won the civil war and China is still an one party dictatorship IN FAVOR of AMERICA, no one would complain.

(And seriously, the current Chinese Government is technically Chaing Kai-Shiek's anyway, a one party capitalist dictatorship that America once hearty supported)

You also ignore the fact when I pointed out Taiwan and SK were given their own time to reach their own conclusions, but China was not given the benefit of the doubt. They needed to be reminded every 5 minutes of Tiananmen, Tiananmen, Tiananmen.

Quote:
As for progress, it exists, but I don't see how the Tiananmen Massacre had to happen for it to succeed. Plenty of countries have experienced economic growth without killing protesters.
Try looking it with THAT Era's lenses. When Tiananmen started to boil, China was suffering growth pains due to free market reforms, Eastern Europe's government's all were overthrown by violent protests, and USSR was on the verge of collapse thanks to "Shock therapy" promoted by Goldman Sachs of all people.

Many of them ended up with dead protesters AND failed economies.

China has gone a long way since 1900, to 1949, to 1989, to now. It is far freer society every step of the way.

Quote:
Even if you claim to to not support it, your way of writing follows its typical patterns.
Somebody have to stand up for the other side. It make a boring debate otherwise.
ArchmageXin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-06-05, 23:10   Link #196
KiraYamatoFan
No end to my talents
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Montreal, QC, Canada
Age: 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeoXiao View Post
As for progress, it exists, but I don't see how the Tiananmen Massacre had to happen for it to succeed. Plenty of countries have experienced economic growth without killing protesters.
This.

Quote:
Try looking it with THAT Era's lenses. When Tiananmen started to boil, China was suffering growth pains due to free market reforms, Eastern Europe's government's all were overthrown by violent protests, and USSR was on the verge of collapse thanks to "Shock therapy" promoted by Goldman Sachs of all people.
Poland violent? Czechoslovakia violent? Hungary violent? Bulgaria violent? What the hell are you on? The only place where a government in Eastern Europe was overthrown with a violent result for obvious reasons around 1989 was Romania (Yugoslavia was a different matter because it split itself later).

About Egypt, Mubarak was told to go fuck himself and rightfully so when things went too far with his greed for power. Same thing for that pineapple face of Noriega in Panama. Same thing in Syria with Assad right now, yet China is among the few countries still supporting that scumbag against the majority of global public opinion. Blaming the West for everything...so easy and so hypocritical. Sometimes, it's better to look in one's own backyard for crap.
__________________
KiraYamatoFan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-06-05, 23:30   Link #197
LeoXiao
提倡自我工業化
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Vereinigte Staaten
Age: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchmageXin View Post
No I am not. It is a selective use of outrage. Look at Egypt. Up until the nth hour with Tatir square protest, America and west were still friend of Mubarak even as protesters were getting tear gassed.
I'm not "America". I never supported Mubarak's use of force.

Quote:
If Chang won the civil war and China is still an one party dictatorship IN FAVOR of AMERICA, no one would complain.
(And seriously, the current Chinese Government is technically Chaing Kai-Shiek's anyway, a one party capitalist dictatorship that America once hearty supported)
Again, I'm not "those people". It would still be wrong of that regime to slaughter its own people. I am aware of the KMT's crimes. But I do not believe that a theoretical mainland KMT regime would match the brutality of Mao and the CCP. The way things looked before, during, and after WW2, the KMT would probably have collapsed under the weight of its corruption and inefficiency after a couple decades.

Quote:
You also ignore the fact when I pointed out Taiwan and SK were given their own time to reach their own conclusions, but China was not given the benefit of the doubt. They needed to be reminded every 5 minutes of Tiananmen, Tiananmen, Tiananmen.
But the point is almost irrelevant. As it were, they did take time to reach their conclusions. Too much time. The PRC has already taken two decades more time than them.
Also, those countries were changed by active popular demand. They were changed by people coming out and bitching about problems, not people supporting the regime or staying silent. Those countries became democratic and open despite government brutality, not because of it.
The CCP is different from those conventional dictatorships in that it has repressed even that tendency for people to voice their demands illegally. The entire political culture is one of "oh oh oh we'll give the Party time to change, let's not mess with politics, we don't want China to become chaotic", etc.
It says in one old text:
"天子有諍臣七人,雖無道,不失其天下"
But the Party doesn't have any dissenters willing to express themselves towards it anymore, because every time that happens, they get Tiananmen'ed. This leads to a very stagnant system. From the standpoint of economic growth, it was okay in Deng's time, but as China enters newer stages of growth, in order for progress to stay afloat, the government needs to be accountable. For this, political and ideological liberalization is needed. Better sooner than later. Unfortunately, the CCP simply won't budge no matter what happens. Meanwhile, corruption and inefficiency increase and the political superstructure fails to keep up with actual situational change.

Quote:
Try looking it with THAT Era's lenses. When Tiananmen started to boil, China was suffering growth pains due to free market reforms, Eastern Europe's government's all were overthrown by violent protests, and USSR was on the verge of collapse thanks to "Shock therapy" promoted by Goldman Sachs of all people.

Many of them ended up with dead protesters AND failed economies.
The situation in Eastern Europe could've been far worse. The only country with major violence in the collapse of the Warsaw Pact states was Romania. It was also the country with the most brutal government.

People now often blame Gorbachev for letting the USSR die. In fact, the USSR was so stagnated, inefficient, and corrupt that in hindsight, it's surprising it lasted as long as it did. The exact reason why the Union in general collapsed was because of two things: The August coup and then Yeltsin. The August coup, first of all, was a completely reactionary plot to Gorbachev's plans that probably would've turned out more or less okay if he wasn't betrayed. The reactionary "Gang of 8" who did the coup were products of that stale regime I just described. On this count, the one-party system was to blame.

Yeltsin was then the one who stood up to oppose the coup, and he succeeded because the Soviet people realized that they had had enough of the CPSU's BS. It wasn't because he was a great leader. In fact he was a drunkard and unfit to be president. His coming to office only shows how bad the political situation had gotten, that people would take a drunk over the corrupt CPSU officials. Again, the result of one-party authoritarianism lasting too long.

Because Yeltsin wanted to be the president of Russia and not the president of the Russian Soviet Federative Republic (implying that he would be someone's subordinate), he declared independence from the USSR. This killed all hope of keeping the Union together, even though plans were, at that time, being made to totally overhaul the USSR. Yeltsin ruined the USSR's hopes at future existence, and he was an idiot who introduced the disastrous shock therapy, but such a person only arose because the situation had gotten just that bad. The collapse of the USSR into so many states was, therefore, also a result of political reform being delayed far too long.

The USSR lasted for 70 years. The PRC has a history of only over 60 years. Yet many of the symptoms that existed in the Soviet system are present in 2013 China as well. Furthermore, if we compare the economic status of the USSR and the PRC in 1989, we will see that the USSR was already a developed nation. There was not such great potential for it to compete in Western markets with the same success as China. China had far greater potential at the time, and still does, due to its lower state of development.


Quote:
China has gone a long way since 1900, to 1949, to 1989, to now. It is far freer society every step of the way.
It has become more stable, but at least in the period between 1949 and roughly 1980 it was most certainly not more free. We have gone over Maoist totalitarianism before in other threads. And as shown above with the Soviet example, just because overt political dissent has been marginalized doesn't mean the system isn't dangerously flawed.

Quote:
Somebody have to stand up for the other side. It make a boring debate otherwise.
So you're doing this just to argue? There's no point in continuing then if you actually agree with me.
LeoXiao is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-06-05, 23:32   Link #198
ArchmageXin
Master of Coin
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Quote:
Poland violent? Czechoslovakia violent? Hungary violent? Bulgaria violent? What the hell are you on? The only place where a government in Eastern Europe was overthrown with a violent result for obvious reasons around 1989 was Romania (Yugoslavia was a different matter because it split itself later).
And look at their "free" economy after. Where were the wealth that was promised to them?

Opps on Poland and Hungary though, I was thinking of the time when Radio Free Europe promised American support then U.S failed to materialize when the Soviets rolled in with the tanks. That happened a bit earlier than 1989.


Quote:
About Egypt, Mubarak was told to go fuck himself and rightfully so when things went too far with his greed for power
You must have a terrible memory, Biden and Republicans were still calling Mubarak a vital ally because he was a friend of Israel even while it was raging in T-square. This is a man who was able to operate police state for almost 20 years at U.S's blessing.

Quote:
Same thing in Syria with Assad right now
LOLZ. How is supporting Al Queda sounds for you? Another "successful" U.S Intervention in the works.

Quote:
yet China is among the few countries still supporting that scumbag against the majority of global public opinion.
China is against all interventions/regime changes on a matter of principle. It is willing to support a dictator or democrat regardless of affiliation because it does not believe other countries should allowed to interfere with a nation's domestic politics. After all, China was subjected to another of "intervention" in the past that let to a lot of death and disaster. Just because it did support a few dictator along to way, at least it is morally consistent.

The west, however, seem to be happy to install dictators/overthrown government if it suits them: Shahs of Iran, for example.

P.S How is Libya, Iran, and Afghanistan doing? All Bastion of freedom and democracy and apple pie now, right? Think how much American tax dollars and blood would have been saved if China manage to stop U.S from invading Iraq, for example...
ArchmageXin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-06-05, 23:41   Link #199
ArchmageXin
Master of Coin
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Quote:
But the point is almost irrelevant. As it were, they did take time to reach their conclusions. Too much time. The PRC has already taken two decades more time than them.
Who are you to judge? Taiwan took over 50 years I believe (first time it was allowed to speak was in 1995)

Quote:
But the Party doesn't have any dissenters willing to express themselves towards it anymore, because every time that happens, they get Tiananmen'ed.
http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2...chemical-spill

You mean like this one? Where the Government stood down against protesters and actually stopped the industrial project? There are dozens of protests happens all the time in China now, and no Tiananmen~

Quote:
Unfortunately, the CCP simply won't budge no matter what happens. Meanwhile, corruption and inefficiency increase and the political superstructure fails to keep up with actual situational change.
You really think there is no difference between CCP 1949, 1989 and 2012? Really? The Internet has brought a lot more freedom than you think. I could go on with a long list, but is 12 here and I got work in the morning. 2b contiued.

Quote:
So you're doing this just to argue? There's no point in continuing then if you actually agree with me.
I don't agree with you. I simply choose to stand up against a generic bash China thread with bad cartoons pics.
ArchmageXin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-06-06, 00:07   Link #200
LeoXiao
提倡自我工業化
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Vereinigte Staaten
Age: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchmageXin View Post
Who are you to judge? Taiwan took over 50 years I believe (first time it was allowed to speak was in 1995)
You're missing the point. I don't care if Taiwan took 50 years. They changed due to people fighting for their rights. The end. The sooner the better. It's like saying that between the US ending slavery in 1800 and 1863 (which is when it was actually ended), 1863 would be the better option.

Quote:
http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2...chemical-spill

You mean like this one? Where the Government stood down against protesters and actually stopped the industrial project? There are dozens of protests happens all the time in China now, and no Tiananmen~
Really now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by the article
...workers, security guards and outside suppliers all said that far from shutting down production the plant had been expanded and was hiring new workers. One western executive of a big petrochemical company in China said the Dalian plant had not stopped production.
Granted, this isn't talking about Ningbo, but the Dalian factory. But I would'nt be surprised if something similar happens.

I just saw a documentary about some village in Anhui that had a problem with a factory as well. They sent some village representatives to Beijing to go get the problem solved. Even though they got a positive response, nothing actually happened.

Even if Xi Jinping actually wants to change something, I don't know if it is even possible given the extent of corruption. You think that it's only the businessmen? The party officials and military officers are also businessmen. They are in it for the money and don't give a crap about actually fixing stuff. Looks like the Soviet system to me, just with cell phones and computers.

Quote:
You really think there is no difference between CCP 1949, 1989 and 2012? Really? The Internet has brought a lot more freedom than you think. I could go on with a long list, but is 12 here and I got work in the morning. 2b contiued.
Read my post. I said "between 1949 and 1980". 2012 is freer than before, but then again the 1980 USSR was also much freer than it was in 1945. Didn't stop it from running into political stagnation.

Last edited by LeoXiao; 2013-06-06 at 00:34.
LeoXiao is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 22:21.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.