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View Poll Results: Eden of the East - Episode 7 Rating
Perfect 10 32 39.02%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 25 30.49%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 12 14.63%
7 out of 10 : Good 9 10.98%
6 out of 10 : Average 2 2.44%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 2 2.44%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 82. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2009-05-27, 06:40   Link #181
Jan-Poo
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Well I can understand her attutide is quite snob and she is using humans as she pleases. See the dinner scene and the other one when she dismisses her (incompetent) secretary with just a few words.

However morally speaking she's not really different from Kira of Death Note, their objective is practically the same except the latter's is on a bigger scale. She's more of a misguided "ally of justice" rather than a serial killer. Of course I think they are both morally questionable and I don't think Diana really thought it throghfully enough. Okay she gets rid of some rapists, but when she dies (and that's not going to happen in a distant future) does she really think it will all be good and well and not new rapist will appear?

But I guess it's a pointless argument since there doesn't seem to be any correlation between a character alignement on the good/evil axis and the reception from the public.

I mean... Makoto in School Days is one of the most hated anime chracters of all time, people actually want him dead while his crime is being a self centered eromaniac.
On the other hand people love Lucy of Elfen Lied who is a mass murderer who slaughters totally innocent people as if they were flies.
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Old 2009-05-27, 07:19   Link #182
izmosmolnar
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Because Lucy is love <3 , while MANkoto is an irritating asshole .

Actually the comparison between her and Kira kinda works, however she is certainly not intelligent enough to think about the bigger picture, and foresee that the result she could eventually manage to make, is only temporary.
I can also agree about disliking her, because killing anyone with such a method is a definite no-no, regardless of whatever noble intention she might have.
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Old 2009-05-27, 08:36   Link #183
Haak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I mean... Makoto in School Days is one of the most hated anime chracters of all time, people actually want him dead while his crime is being a self centered eromaniac.
On the other hand people love Lucy of Elfen Lied who is a mass murderer who slaughters totally innocent people as if they were flies.
Oh God yeah, I know. It's totally weird.
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Old 2009-05-27, 10:34   Link #184
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When you're an adorable pink haired girl who speaks only one word but becomes a semi-psycho superhuman killing machine of justice with a thump to the head, you could cut off people's limbs and they'd still love you.

In retrospect, if you're a living manwhore knocking up a bullied girl with a large chest at the same as you're own seatmate and thus proving the point of why women burn bras back in the 80s and 70s, you pretty much deserve getting your gut ripped open, your head severed and having this head have a nice long ride on a really, really nice boat.
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Old 2009-05-27, 15:53   Link #185
Jan-Poo
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So I get, in order to make Diana become more popular we just need to say: Imagine what Diana would do to Makoto.

Someone should make and AMV mixing up scenes of Makoto and Diana with "Johhny be good" as music theme.
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Old 2009-05-27, 16:32   Link #186
miroku2192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
So I get, in order to make Diana become more popular we just need to say: Imagine what Diana would do to Makoto.

Someone should make and AMV mixing up scenes of Makoto and Diana with "Johhny be good" as music theme.
lol he would totally try to hit her up too LOL!

though it's really not that funny...it's kinda scary
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Old 2009-05-27, 17:51   Link #187
RedWing
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I'm surprised no one is using the phone as a death note.

Use Juiz to take over the tv stations and announce that you are God and you are going to rid the land of Evil. A missile strike at a few high profile prisons(to save costs), and one off deaths that you can announce to be divine justice. Use the super illusionary material to help your cause, and rally some holy crusaders to kill off who you direct them to without cost.
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Old 2009-05-27, 18:18   Link #188
Raiga
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I'm surprised no one is using the phone as a death note.

Use Juiz to take over the tv stations and announce that you are God and you are going to rid the land of Evil. A missile strike at a few high profile prisons(to save costs), and one off deaths that you can announce to be divine justice. Use the super illusionary material to help your cause, and rally some holy crusaders to kill off who you direct them to without cost.
I'm fairly certain that doesn't count as saving the country and the next time you turn a corner Mr. Supporter would be waiting...
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Old 2009-05-27, 20:10   Link #189
Kaoru Chujo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
...But I guess it's a pointless argument since there doesn't seem to be any correlation between a character alignement on the good/evil axis and the reception from the public. I mean... Makoto in School Days is one of the most hated anime characters of all time, people actually want him dead while his crime is being a self centered eromaniac. On the other hand people love Lucy of Elfen Lied who is a mass murderer who slaughters totally innocent people as if they were flies.
Interesting. In the case of Lucy vs. Makoto, it seems to me the difference is that Lucy is an innocent creature, unaware that what she is doing is bad. Is a tiger evil when it kills a deer? Whereas Makoto knows very well that what he is doing is bad. In addition, he is a rather boringly normal character, whereas Lucy is excitingly different. And she is also a victim herself. As well as being quite attractive. I think those are all reasons why we feel some sympathy toward her.

In the case of Shiratori Diana Kuroha, her beauty too helps us cheat in her direction. And she is also an interesting character, with a unique modus operandi. So she is a bit like Light in that regard, as well as in the fact that she has some (spurious) feeling that what she is doing is just.
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Old 2009-05-27, 20:31   Link #190
miroku2192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo View Post
Interesting. In the case of Lucy vs. Makoto, it seems to me the difference is that Lucy is an innocent creature, unaware that what she is doing is bad. Is a tiger evil when it kills a deer? Whereas Makoto knows very well that what he is doing is bad. In addition, he is a rather boringly normal character, whereas Lucy is excitingly different. And she is also a victim herself. As well as being quite attractive. I think those are all reasons why we feel some sympathy toward her.

In the case of Shiratori Diana Kuroha, her beauty too helps us cheat in her direction. And she is also an interesting character, with a unique modus operandi. So she is a bit like Light in that regard, as well as in the fact that she has some (spurious) feeling that what she is doing is just.
Though that makes me wonder, if Makoto was a beautiful BEAUTIFUL girl, would people would still say the same...?
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Old 2009-05-27, 21:10   Link #191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo View Post
Interesting. In the case of Lucy vs. Makoto, it seems to me the difference is that Lucy is an innocent creature, unaware that what she is doing is bad.
I know I'm stating the obvious, but that explanation only cuts it in anime and other works of fiction. For me at least, once you've killed enough innocent people in the most brutal way, I don't care what your sob story is: You have to be stopped by any means necessary. The more you slaughter people, the less sympathy I can muster, even if you yourself are a victim of circumstance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo View Post
Is a tiger evil when it kills a deer?
Tigers have to kill in order to live. They don't do it for vengeance, out of spite, or anything like that. A more apt analogy would be that Lucy has been (unfortunately) programmed to indiscriminately kill all humans due to a deeply embedded hatred of them; there's a human-like feature to her motive.

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Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo View Post
Whereas Makoto knows very well that what he is doing is bad.
He's still not killing anyone. His biggest transgression (for me) is being able to get layed (sp?) and cheat on all these girls when I have a pair of gym socks that are more fascinating than him. Yes, I also hate the guy more than Diana. It's totally irrational in real life scenarios, but that's OK here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo View Post
In addition, he is a rather boringly normal character, whereas Lucy is excitingly different. And she is also a victim herself. As well as being quite attractive. I think those are all reasons why we feel some sympathy toward her.

In the case of Shiratori Diana Kuroha, her beauty too helps us cheat in her direction. And she is also an interesting character, with a unique modus operandi. So she is a bit like Light in that regard, as well as in the fact that she has some (spurious) feeling that what she is doing is just.
Yep. Yep. Yep. The fact that Diana exclusively goes after rapists and seems to have also been a victim herself is definitely meant to get sympathy from the audience.

But we need to remember that these are works of fiction. People don't have to logically defend why they think one character is more "evil", despicable, or more "worthy" of death than another. In the world of anime, Makoto is one of the most deplorable because of his blandness, and his clumsy promiscuity rubs people the wrong way. But here is no consequence to condemning him more harshly based on pet peeves and personal biases.

But in the real world, such things are immaterial. It would be completely irrational--not to mention morally questionable--to cheer on the death of Makoto while silently letting Diana or Lucy types off the hook on the basis of her being interesting, moe or a victim. All this proves is that there are different strokes for different folks.

Last edited by sikvod00; 2009-05-27 at 21:26.
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Old 2009-05-27, 21:18   Link #192
Kid Ying
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I mean... Makoto in School Days is one of the most hated anime chracters of all time, people actually want him dead while his crime is being a self centered eromaniac.
On the other hand people love Lucy of Elfen Lied who is a mass murderer who slaughters totally innocent people as if they were flies.
Well, i don't like Makoto, but i don't like Lucy either. I mean, there's nothing likeable about her character. She's cute. So what? I watch anime to have fun, not to have a turn on... Most of the time.

But about Diana, i feel sympathetic with her, i don't know, i can't get to hate her. She's a real bitch with everyone and her plan is totally crazy, but i think that's why she's an interesting character to me, because she's really fucked up. Either way, i'm cheering for her to get what she deserves in the end, which is death... After some sweet tender love with a good johnny, to make her finally happy.
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Old 2009-05-27, 22:23   Link #193
Kaoru Chujo
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Originally Posted by sikvod00 View Post
I know I'm stating the obvious, but that explanation only cuts it in anime and other works of fiction. For me at least, once you've killed enough innocent people in the most brutal way, I don't care what your sob story is: You have to be stopped by any means necessary. The more you slaughter people, the less sympathy I can muster, even if you yourself are a victim of circumstance.

Tigers have to kill in order to live. They don't do it for vengeance, out of spite, or anything like that. A more apt analogy would be that Lucy has been (unfortunately) programmed to indiscriminately kill all humans due to a deeply embedded hatred of them; there's a human-like feature to her motive....
In traditional English and American law, it was the intention that counted. If you kill someone without intending to, or even while your judgment is impaired, you are not guilty. That has changed -- for the worse, in my opinion -- in recent times. It is not the results of your actions you should be condemned for, but the intentions behind them. In that sense, Lucy is innocent, like a soldier is innocent when he kills someone he is told is an enemy, even if the orders are mistaken.

That doesn't mean you don't kill or imprison the soldier -- or Lucy -- if it will stop further killing. But they are still innocent.

How about the example of a cat torturing a mouse and then not eating it? Happens all the time, and I never blame the cat. It's just its nature. As it became Lucy's.

Of course, another reason we can muster some sympathy for these murderous characters is that we have an instinct for violence ourselves, and fiction is a safe way to indulge it. Maybe you imply that idea in what you wrote.

This is a bit of a digression, based on Kid Ying's post, but I think anime characters work best when they access our subconscious, like myth. I think Diana and Lucy do that. Their beauty/cuteness is just one of the means by which they do that. The violence is another.

I'm uncomfortable with the expression "sob story," since it seems to me to come from another movie. One's childhood background can definitely make one more vulnerable to doing wrong, but one is still responsible for one's actions in that case. I'm talking about cases where one's judgment is seriously impaired, like by madness or brainwashing. Probably Diana is responsible, as the detective was. What sympathy I have for her is more based on her stylishness and those subconscious/mythical factors I mentioned.
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Last edited by Kaoru Chujo; 2009-05-27 at 22:45.
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Old 2009-05-27, 23:02   Link #194
sikvod00
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo View Post
In traditional English and American law, it was the intention that counted. If you kill someone without intending to, or even while your judgment is impaired, you are not guilty. That has changed -- for the worse, in my opinion -- in recent times. It is not the results of your actions you should be condemned for, but the intentions behind them. In that sense, Lucy is innocent, like a soldier is innocent when he kills someone he is told is an enemy, even if the orders are mistaken.

That doesn't mean you don't kill or imprison the soldier -- or Lucy -- if it will stop further killing. But they are still innocent.
Everything you said is true. It's just my personal bias that I never really could sympathize with her. The people she killed and the way she did it just offended me too much. Also, the extremely bi-polar presentation of her character kind of pissed me off: indiscriminate killing of people (children included, dismemberment involved) on one side and then overly moe on the other. But yeah, Lucy's innocent.

Quote:
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How about the example of a cat torturing a mouse and then not eating it? Happens all the time, and I never blame the cat. It's just its nature. As it became Lucy's.
Yeah, something along those lines makes a lot more sense. Killing humans is merely a natural instinct to her. And FYI, I never knew whether the thing cats playfully torturing a mouse were true or not. That's so weird and sadistic...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo View Post
Of course, another reason we can muster some sympathy for these murderous characters is that we have an instinct for violence ourselves, and fiction is a safe way to indulge it. Maybe you imply that idea in what you wrote.
Well, I can certainly relate to violence that is connected with vigilantism, to a degree. Diana is without a doubt morally guilty of her actions, but because she specifically targets a group of people so deplorable few would defend them, I can sympathize with her much easily. Plus, that sensual voice of hers is enough to arouse me.

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This is a bit of a digression...
With regard to Makoto and Lucy, yeah, but let's just pretend we were always referring to Diana from now on.
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Old 2009-05-27, 23:36   Link #195
Nobodyman9
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Okay, so I just got through watching this show from the beginning to now over the last four days, and all I have to say about this episode is...



WTF?!

All right, I don't understand Japanese, but I've heard that that was all an illusion/magic trick at the end. But even so, even if that was an illusion, it was DAMN GOOD illusion. Hmm, but where is Ohsugi now? Anyway, I'm definitely hooked on this series and the next episode should be coming out tomorrow or some time in the next few days, right?
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Old 2009-05-28, 00:26   Link #196
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Maybe Oshugi is the supporter
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Old 2009-05-28, 01:41   Link #197
Haak
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In the case of Shiratori Diana Kuroha, her beauty too helps us cheat in her direction.
Huh?!?!

She never appeared that beautiful to me.
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Old 2009-05-28, 05:29   Link #198
golthin
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Huh?!?!

She never appeared that beautiful to me.
I think she is sexy, but the seiyuu they picked for her doesn't do anything for me.
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Old 2009-05-28, 07:03   Link #199
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo View Post
Interesting. In the case of Lucy vs. Makoto, it seems to me the difference is that Lucy is an innocent creature, unaware that what she is doing is bad. Is a tiger evil when it kills a deer? Whereas Makoto knows very well that what he is doing is bad. In addition, he is a rather boringly normal character, whereas Lucy is excitingly different. And she is also a victim herself. As well as being quite attractive. I think those are all reasons why we feel some sympathy toward her.
Frankly I think that your feelings (and not yours alone) have kinda changed the way you describe these characters, in other words you depict Lucy better than she really his and Makoto worse than he actually is.

First thing we are talking about Lucy here, not Nyu Nyu and neither the other dicloniuses. Imho Lucy's feelings toward humanity range from total indifference to hate and despise, I don't realy think she is not aware of what she's doing. Your comparison with the cat and the tiger do not match because her first slaughter was done for vengeance and all the others were done just because someone happened to be on her way or yet again for vengeance.
If one thing can be said to save her is neither "innocence" nor "unawareness", (hell she definitely knows that what she's doing is bad) but the fact that a tragic past and situation led her to become that way and she suffers from being that way. However this is a common background story of many villains.

Ironically it's really Makoto the one who doesn't understand that what he's doing is bad and how bad it is, there isn't really malice on his actions (meaning that he doesn't feel pleasure in making someone suffer), he just follows his instincts. And yet again ironically I could say that the tiger and cat comparison better fit Makoto's situation rather than Lucy's. Makoto is like a child that takes any candy in front of him and throw them away when he's fed up with them. Objectively the three girls are lot more evil than him, and are as promiscuous as him. Just think how they treat Kotonoha (and they do feel pleasure in doing that), the hidden camera, the fact that they all have boyfriends and still go to Makoto to have a group sex.

See the very same argument you use to defend the dicloniuses is the very same reason people hate Makoto.

Diclouniuses are unaware that what they are doing causes tragedies = it's not their fault

Makoto is unaware of the fact he's destroying the lives of two girls = he's a bastard that must die
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Old 2009-05-28, 08:09   Link #200
be0wulf
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Though that makes me wonder, if Makoto was a beautiful BEAUTIFUL girl, would people would still say the same...?
Then she'd be a slut. And everyone hates sluts.
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