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Old 2013-01-21, 14:16   Link #3621
felix
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
They are not cheats. Just because they don't conform to your idea of gameplay doesn't make them cheating in any term of the definition. I wouldn't play a Diablo game without trade.
You press a button and buy power.
You skip content by performing a meaningless task over and over and over.
What more is there...

If we were talking currency like in Path of Exile where it has some value then yeah it's trade and it's fine. You are trading something hard to get for something equally hard to get; and all the items you are trading might have made you several good items if you used them and were lucky. But in Diablo it's just some stock exchange nonsense.

Say what you want but I don't like playing a game that makes you look stupid when everything on you is not something you just bouth with gold before it could even drop for you; and the way to get better is to spend hours on end repeating the same 10 meters killing a mob that can't even fight back. It might have done good to people who like buying and selling but it was awful for anyone who wanted a challenging and rewarding experience (not a duck shooting gallery).
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Old 2013-01-21, 14:34   Link #3622
Archon_Wing
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Quote:
Originally Posted by felix View Post
You press a button and buy power.
You skip content by performing a meaningless task over and over and over.
What more is there...
That's still not cheating. Cheating involves using outside methods to bypass the rules of gameplay or taking advantage of bugs that lead to the same effect.

My point is that I was saying that the AH works as a trading mechanism and you respond by saying we should remove trade. I can't connect with that at all. There are 5 classes in the game, and thus 80% of good items I find will be inevitably better for someone else.

The AH is a symptom of the problem. It reflects the nature of trade in the game, solely by being the main method.

Quote:
If we were talking currency like in Path of Exile where it has some value then yeah it's trade and it's fine. You are trading something hard to get for something equally hard to get; and all the items you are trading might have made you several good items if you used them and were lucky. But in Diablo it's just some stock exchange nonsense.
That's not how currency works. There's a reason why paper bills were invented alongside coins. Currency needs to be common and readily issued and easy to use, otherwise it's a barter system.

In D2, they used chipped gems as the very bottom building block of trading and anyone could get those.

This is why I brought up Gw2; the AH works fine there even though the primary currency is trivially easy to get.

The point of gold/currency is time. Sure it's easy to get, but not everyone wants to spend time picking up gold. Hell, I'm not even rich, but last I played D3, I was largely ignoring gold piles... so someone else can do it for me by buying my useless crap.

As for the stock exchange circus, that's just how all video game economies work. Some people don't know the true value of items so other people take advantage.

A huge obsession of what made Diablo multiplayer popular is the concept of in game wealth. The ability to quickly use this wealth to create whatever silly setup you desire on demand is a part of it. D3, for all its flaws, has gold to more accurately depict it.


Quote:
Say what you want but I don't like playing a game that makes you look stupid when everything on you is not something you just bouth with gold before it could even drop for you; and the way to get better is to spend hours on end repeating the same 10 meters killing a mob that can't even fight back. It might have done good to people who like buying and selling but it was awful for anyone who wanted a challenging and rewarding experience (not a duck shooting gallery).
That is a fundamental flaw of rewards vs challenge with the game. Though arguably games like Diablo always have efficient farming in less challenging content. There's a reason why D2 players used Pindleskin and Meph as pinatas. But D3 does have it skewed the wrong way. Challenging content isn't rewarding enough and they are trying to fix it by buffing MP rewards. But it isn't enough.

Why do people use the AH to get ahead? Because the game doesn't let them otherwise. Compare D2 where you could get fucking Tal Runes from Act 1 Countess in normal. 2 of them in your act 2 merc and he melts everything in normal and put a Stealth runeword on yourself. It was ridiculous on how you could utterly break the progression curve in D2 if you knew what you were doing. You can't in D3. Lame. :/

In a sense, I don't think people would have complained about Inferno if Hell was actually a decent place to farm. By D2 analogy, end of nightmare had some really good drops, including elite unique items that weren't the best items in the game, but if you were playing single player, they might as well be because they were that good.

Rigid and defined a Diablo game does not make.
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Last edited by Archon_Wing; 2013-01-21 at 14:46.
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Old 2013-01-21, 18:52   Link #3623
felix
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
That's still not cheating. Cheating involves using outside methods to bypass the rules of gameplay or taking advantage of bugs that lead to the same effect.
Depends then if you see AH as "an outside power." Same for seeing it as a bug; it's only a feature because you brought the game to play the whole trading market. It's a bug it screws with progression, drops, etc.

Quote:
My point is that I was saying that the AH works as a trading mechanism and you respond by saying we should remove trade. I can't connect with that at all. There are 5 classes in the game, and thus 80% of good items I find will be inevitably better for someone else.
You said: "I'm not opposed to the AH. The AH is the only thing that makes the game playable. People need to trade in a secure environment without scamming." Essentially this is not a issue if there is no trading at all outside of party loot.

Quote:
My point is that I was saying that the AH works as a trading mechanism and you respond by saying we should remove trade. I can't connect with that at all. There are 5 classes in the game, and thus 80% of good items I find will be inevitably better for someone else.
Just have mostly current class loots drop, with a sprinkle of off-class loots. It's not like your character would look at an axe on the wall and think how they can shoot it in their little xbow. Your problem is another symptom of the problem known as the AH. Since you can trade they have reason to have everything under the sun drop, forcing you to trade for 90% of your stuff. It's surprising they don't have some renting system too.

Quote:
The point of gold/currency is time. Sure it's easy to get, but not everyone wants to spend time picking up gold. Hell, I'm not even rich, but last I played D3, I was largely ignoring gold piles... so someone else can do it for me by buying my useless crap.
To hell with time as a currency. It's a 60$/euro game; if I want to pay with (wasting) time I'll play one of the million free to play games out there. (At least I'm killing things in those!)

And you miss my point. Because of the whole AH or rather "trade until you own" system, you are shoehorned into paying more and more time for less and less everything else. By the time you stop "paying time" you breeze though the so called "fun parts" so you achieve nothing. It forces in the mentality that "it's too hard, pay with more time" and drops the difficulty bar to "are you nolifer who likes to do the same 10s piece of content over and over for 60 hours?"

Quote:
That's not how currency works. There's a reason why paper bills were invented alongside coins. Currency needs to be common and readily issued and easy to use, otherwise it's a barter system.
It's a game; you can make game paper money spawn dragons if you wanted. PoE already showed a non-gold system can work just fine and is way more stable.

Quote:
That is a fundamental flaw of rewards vs challenge with the game. Though arguably games like Diablo always have efficient farming in less challenging content. There's a reason why D2 players used Pindleskin and Meph as pinatas. But D3 does have it skewed the wrong way. Challenging content isn't rewarding enough and they are trying to fix it by buffing MP rewards. But it isn't enough.

Why do people use the AH to get ahead? Because the game doesn't let them otherwise. Compare D2 where you could get fucking Tal Runes from Act 1 Countess in normal. 2 of them in your act 2 merc and he melts everything in normal and put a Stealth runeword on yourself. It was ridiculous on how you could utterly break the progression curve in D2 if you knew what you were doing. You can't in D3. Lame. :/

In a sense, I don't think people would have complained about Inferno if Hell was actually a decent place to farm. By D2 analogy, end of nightmare had some really good drops, including elite unique items that weren't the best items in the game, but if you were playing single player, they might as well be because they were that good.

Rigid and defined a Diablo game does not make.
Am I the only person on the face of this planet that doesn't look at this game as a farming simulator?

(and to think people judge why games like Framing Whatnot 2012 exist)
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Old 2013-01-21, 19:04   Link #3624
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I think the issue was something along the lines of "unless you spend time farming for gear in Hell mode or buy stuff off the AH, you cannot play Inferno mode because you will die on the first creature you enounter".

At least that was what I was told by a player. He had to run Hell mode four times through to get enough gear to not be instantly killed in Inferno mode. Mostly because of the random chance on gear stats. You might get a rare item you can use, that has absolutely worthless stats because it was entirely randomly generated. Something like a weapon that increases a stat but does no damage, or does only damage and gives no stat bonuses.
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Old 2013-01-21, 19:09   Link #3625
Archon_Wing
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Quote:
Originally Posted by felix View Post
Depends then if you see AH as "an outside power." Same for seeing it as a bug; it's only a feature because you brought the game to play the whole trading market. It's a bug it screws with progression, drops, etc.
There is no subjectivity here. It's an intended feature regardless. No definition of cheat or bug can include solely "Something I don't like"

Quote:
You said: "I'm not opposed to the AH. The AH is the only thing that makes the game playable. People need to trade in a secure environment without scamming." Essentially this is not a issue if there is no trading at all outside of party loot.
That's quite literally throwing away the baby with the bathwater nor would it solve problems for me or many other people. People use the AH because drops suck. Eliminating AH and trade does nothing unless you fix the drop rates. The existence of those two can coexist with better drop rates. Why exactly can't I have all of these things?

The key difference between Diablo 3 and its previous incarnations is that characters are too dependent on gear and even baseline gear is a pain to find. Deal with these two issues and there are no issues. Who the hell cares if people have better. People in D2 ran around in duped Enigmas or whatnot, but I was having fun clearing hardcore in hell mode with about 8-10 characters. My gear was mostly functional...

Quote:
It's a game; you can make game paper money spawn dragons if you wanted. PoE already showed a non-gold system can work just fine and is way more stable.
Some make more sense than others. This one works more than you give credit for and is one of the few things that's based correctly with prior installments.

The D3 economy works perfectly, although hacks and bots have hurt it. But what major online game doesn't suffer from that?

If people recognize the currency, it works. D2 gold was worthless because it had no value or use beyond a few things, and thus nobody used it. So in a sense, D3 gold > D2 gold.

In any case, Guild Wars 2 Trading Post is an example of a Diablo similar AH working extremely well.

Quote:
Am I the only person on the face of this planet that doesn't look at this game as a farming simulator?

(and to think people judge why games like Framing Whatnot 2012 exist)
Without pvp it really just is. Thanks to the shortsightedness of the developers. It's changing--- slowly.

In any case trading must live on, as I should repeat...

Quote:
A huge obsession of what made Diablo multiplayer popular is the concept of in game wealth. The ability to quickly use this wealth to create whatever silly setup you desire on demand is a part of it.
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Old 2013-01-29, 01:54   Link #3626
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Funny that, now that I am stuck in limbo with gear good enough to get by, but any upgrade would now cost tens of millions, I am turning into a scrap metal merchant.

Diablo 3 is doing a good job of making me feel poor.
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Old 2013-01-29, 01:56   Link #3627
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Tens of millions? You in some baller gear right now? Quite sure upgrades to mine wouldn't take that much and I am like, totally awesome and shit (Carried Mp6 ubers while forgetting to select the correct passives)

I know what you're talking about but I don't think you'd be at that point yet, though you might want to drop your battle tag or profile or something.
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Old 2013-01-29, 02:05   Link #3628
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
Tens of millions? You in some baller gear right now? Quite sure upgrades to mine wouldn't take that much and I am like, totally awesome and shit (Carried Mp6 ubers while forgetting to select the correct passives)

I know what you're talking about but I don't think you'd be at that point yet, though you might want to drop your battle tag or profile or something.
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/V.../hero/19625369
Barbarian Gear is more expensive than other classes because they are more in demand. And anyway I am currently a Throw Barb. Getting half a million gold per act 3 run while with Goldskin. Takes about 45min if I pay attention.

Still waiting on getting the set body armour for the Barbarian. Otherwise there really isn't much else I can find that aren't 10 million.

So I am looking to gear up my Monk. The Monk's gear is only half finished, I am currently ONLY playing Barb.

p.s. Maximus for my Enchantress was the best purchase I ever made. A demon that takes aggro and is invincible for 15 seconds.

p.s.s Also, I ended up with 4 pairs of Firewalkers in one night of play. RNG sure is silly. My Barb Amulet was actually a real drop as I couldn't have afforded it on the market, but as you might notice it has no strength stat.
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Old 2013-01-29, 02:39   Link #3629
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Not bad. I'd assume your offhand +skills help a lot. Maximus makes Enchantress a true powerhouse. My Monk has it too with a hellfire ring and it is sorta cool

Still, there are some reasonable upgrades that you can still get. Bracers are okay, but you might do better with Strongarm. Shoulders are a bit weak, so look for a lower vile ward. Pants are fine, but could see a modest upgrade too.

Also personally, I'd go with a topaz for more MF in the helm. Though certainly more gold find with an emerald is viable too. Personally, I'd never gold find again, as it is boring and you really need pickup radius to be worth a damn. You can't really gold find effectively if you have to run all over the place with it.

Though your complaint is still sound... "Can Collector 3" is what it often feels like.
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Old 2013-01-29, 02:57   Link #3630
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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My gear is probably going to be as good as it gets for a casual gamer like me. I couldn't do more than 1 act 3 run in one setting, I get bored.
I tried looking for a vile ward, but every one that isn't a downgrade still costs several million.
As for gold find? The good news is that the default pickup radius is increasing slightly from next patch. So that's hurrah on that front for me.

The gem in my helm is for the health % increase. I am not that good of a gamer so I needed the extra buffer, or I would still die without responding in time to danger.
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Old 2013-01-29, 03:09   Link #3631
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Oh yea, I was never able to "grind" either.

Depends on what you mean by downgrade. All resist > Life for the most part, since potions don't scale well with more health.

Even if they increase it having pickup radius will help a lot. When you farm, you want to blaze through stuff. Aka, not stop for anything that isn't gold and yellow. (And arguably just gold).

But in the end, this is why I dropped the goldskin. Farming gold is just too boring and it seems to be better to just aim for the jackpot. (Go kill the keywardens-- they drop well with 5 stacks)

As for the helm in the gem, fair enough. Replace it when you have more confidence. I used a purple gem for the longest time and still do for ubers. Though my monk is built like a brick-- yea, hooray for me and the 3 other idiots that still use shields.
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Old 2013-01-29, 05:53   Link #3632
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Vile wards (esp good ones) are extremely overpriced. I get some good shoulders for 3-4mil that gives similar stats (3-4% off) as a 100mil+ VW without the bonus armor.
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Old 2013-01-29, 06:38   Link #3633
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Flying Dagger View Post
Vile wards (esp good ones) are extremely overpriced. I get some good shoulders for 3-4mil that gives similar stats (3-4% off) as a 100mil+ VW without the bonus armor.
That's sort of why I still use my old shoulders. I plugged the stats into the search list and everything that was "better" was several million in price more than I was prepared to pay.
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Old 2013-01-29, 07:44   Link #3634
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socketed version of those items would be nice. +2 100% CD gems.
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Old 2013-01-29, 14:23   Link #3635
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying Dagger View Post
Vile wards (esp good ones) are extremely overpriced. I get some good shoulders for 3-4mil that gives similar stats (3-4% off) as a 100mil+ VW without the bonus armor.
Yes, Barbs can find hella better because shoulders by default have more than 200 str.

Though they're not usually as well rounded. It would be hard to compete with the life regeneration and mitigation the ward gives especially at the lower price ranges. Life sustain is generally more important than raw EHP, though barbs generally have no issues with sustain I suppose.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
That's sort of why I still use my old shoulders. I plugged the stats into the search list and everything that was "better" was several million in price more than I was prepared to pay.
Well, I'd have to admit there's nothing super groundbreaking at the range you would like to spend, but you shouldn't say you have no options. It's more like that you just don't consider the current options to be that great. Also, if you really do have trouble surviving then you might have to drop the goldskin since the 100 GF does you no good if you can't kill and survive at a blazing pace. It'll just hold you back. Also consider that as you level paragon that it gets even less of an issue.

I did take a look and noted things are more expensive now though (It would take 20 million to upgrade my bracers slightly, but it's not too bad considering I've been spending on 7 dight upgrades forever), but I consider these two shoulders to be better, and bracers... well I guess if you really need to gear for survivability. IMO though, not having crit on bracers holds you back... i'd rather compensate on survivability elsewhere.

Images
Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

The first one is a slight upgrade, but has MF. The second one is an upgrade, mostly with DPS in mind. Both increase EHP by small amounts but since HP is less and mitigation is more, that potions have a greater effect, making everything that doesn't one shot you infinitely more easy to deal with.

My tip to you is to avoid hitting home runs when it comes to anything but godly gear. Certainly, when you reach the 9 digit range, that you should be picky. But us peasants have to pick and choose, and so an upgrade cannot possibly be found just by using the "similar items" feature without compromising a bit.

There was a long lull when I was stuck at 35k unbuffed dps because I didn't want to sacrifice any survivability. So I eventually did gear offensively and while my EHP isn't as high as before, I am a lot more well rounded. Still going down from world 4500 to world #11000 in EHP on Diabloprogress (which doesn't factor in One with Everything) and not using a purple gem isn't too bad considering my stuff isn't worth billions and also most high EHP toons don't seem to be able to kill anything anyways.

I will have to admit that I am extremely reckless with tossing away gold for incremental upgrades. Might have been godly if I were patient but at the same time, I've never been too worried about making the enemies pop out stuff I want, post 1.04 that is.

Anyhow, to put things in perspective, very few people have picked up 100 million gold in all their time of playing. This is even factoring gold find, so I just think it's really not the way to go if one wants to really go far. When you're struggling with repair bills and need to buy cheap upgrades from the AH, then gold find is a boon. Basically, I think you've outgrown it, and whether or not this is a flaw in the game is up to debate. It most likely is though. You can blame Blizzard for failing to stop botting in which those bots drive up gold prices.

Gold find makes you slave to the AH. Magic Find does too, but not only does it give a better chance to quickly boost earnings, it also lets you find your own things.
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Old 2013-01-29, 16:17   Link #3636
Flying Dagger
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For barb shoulders I usually look for
>230str
>60vit
>60 Resist all
>40 Physical resist AND/OR %life (most magic spells don't outright kill you once you have the DPS and %life, reflect damage does and its physical)

Optionals:
Armor (10 armor = 1 resists all, 1 str = 1 armor, 10 int = 1 resist all, thus: 10 armor = 1 RA = 1 str = 1 int)
Pickup radius
MF (important at lower PLs)
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Old 2013-01-29, 19:52   Link #3637
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Well 10:1 res:armor is the theory though in practice resistance comes in much larger quantities. You're not going to see much armor with 600 armor bonus.

Furthermore since barbs have naturally higher strength and armor, it's generally more beneficial to get resists, it's much easier to increase whatever is lower by w/e % then it is for whatever is bigger.

Also, I understand it's under testing, but no player pvp dmg penalty? lol

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Old 2013-02-21, 02:05   Link #3638
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Diablo III Coming to PlayStation 3 and PlayStation 4
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Old 2013-02-21, 08:37   Link #3639
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The backlash from this is just stupid IMO. The whole "glourious PC gaming master race" joke is being taken as gospel for a bit too long.
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Old 2013-02-21, 09:46   Link #3640
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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The backlash from this is just stupid IMO. The whole "glourious PC gaming master race" joke is being taken as gospel for a bit too long.
Actually it is justified. The reason the controls are so stupid in the game is now explained. Why there are only 5 hotkeys and no skill swapping is because it is designed for a controller.

It isn't about "PC master race", it is that we have a game that has its controls cut down in order to make sure the Console can handle it. The same way Skyrim's interface was messed up without the mods.
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