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Old 2012-05-09, 07:08   Link #1341
ZGoten
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It's so weird. Diablo III is comming out, and I am not even excited. I love D2 to death, but all the media around D3 so far has just disappointed me. And when I tried the game out myself during the beta weekend, my expectations were met exactly. It's basically a streamlined and dumbed down version of Diablo II. I especially dislike the new skillsystem. Oh well, I will probably get it at some point, just because it's Diablo, but right now, I honestly could barely care less. The only thing holding up my hope are the boss battles. But it looks like Titan Quest will remain the best alternative to Diablo II.
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Old 2012-05-09, 07:44   Link #1342
LoweGear
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Originally Posted by ZGoten View Post
It's basically a streamlined and dumbed down version of Diablo II. I especially dislike the new skillsystem.
On the new skill system, the only thing I dislike about it compared to D2 is that you can't choose which skills and runes to unlock as you level up. Otherwise though, I feel the new skill system is actually better gameplay wise.

While you can't level up the skills per se, you have more variety in skills due to the rune system (though this only comes to play as you unlock more runes, which isn't really evident in the beta), and the skills deal damage based on your weapons so that it scales to difficulty, unlike the fixed-damage model of many RPG's (like D2 and Skyrim which gimped the higher-difficulty effectiveness of many spells), making skill leveling irrelevant. And while the game does give the impression that you can only assign certain types of abilities to certain buttons, you can remove that limitation by checking "Elective Mode" in the gameplay options. Given that you can now access up to 6 special abilities at once without switching instead of 2 like in D2, this allows for much better spell combos at higher level play. Coupled with the ability to equip up to three different passive skills at higher levels and you have a skill system that's actually more diverse and freeform than D2's.

I'm not really sure how Diablo III is watered down compared to DII otherwise though:

- There are now more components for your armors, including shoulder pads, leggings and wrist attachments that you didn't have in D2.
- Item and inventory management is more or less the same, but with all items taking up only two slots at most.
- You can now craft armors and weapons by breaking down unneeded magical items at a blacksmith, in a more reliable fashion than using the Horadric Cube
- Gemstones are back, and they can be recycled. Instead of the Horadric Cube, you need to go to a Jeweler to do gem combining and removal.
- You can now color your armor using dyes
- Instead of companions with randomly-generated names, you now have followers with their own characters and backstory

Asides from the aforementioned weakness in freedom of choice regarding DIII's skill progression system, the game is otherwise more or less what it should be: an improved DII.
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Old 2012-05-09, 08:10   Link #1343
risingstar3110
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Are they still keeping those Charms that you have to keep in your inventory to increase stats?

I hate those most in D2. It's just a great conflict trying to enjoy the game without teleporting back town every 10 minutes
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Old 2012-05-09, 08:26   Link #1344
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Honestly I don't even understand how could people think this is a dumbed down version of Diablo II, when almost everything is an improvement.

Don't tell me because it's a beta compare to a full game?
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Old 2012-05-09, 09:09   Link #1345
ZGoten
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The skillsystem in Diablo II was by far the most important aspect of the game, in my opinion. It is the sole reason why I spent countless hours trying to come up with new and interesting ways to play the game. In Diablo III, you have no choice whatsoever in what skills you learn. It is a system much more comparable to Guild Wars actually, where you have a number of skills from which you have to pick half a dozen at a time. You could argue that that's essentially the same thing, but it is not. How many points you spent on a skill, when you picked it up in the first place and the fact that you could not reinvest you points up until 2010, where a system to allow just that was introduced, made the skill system more important, strategic and investing. Diablo III does not come close from what I have seen, heard and experienced, and this is pretty much the only reason why I feel underwhelmed. Unlocking specific skills in a certain order was the reason why I've played D2 for so long. D3 doesn't offer the same experience. They had the greatest leveling system of all time and changed it for this . . .

Also, there are only five classes, but I am sure that the game will expanded upon in that regard. Actually, what I forgot to mention in my previous post was the real money auction house, which sounds really intriguing to me. I think that's one of the greatest introductions to gaming in recent history. Still, the skill system alone ruins it for me.
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Old 2012-05-09, 09:43   Link #1346
Mahou
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Not that you need much of a strategic approach to clear the game. Sure you could totally fail to skill your character (happened more than once pre-guides), but later on you didn't see much talent tree variety on battle.net anyways from my experience. But, I agree that there were a few fun skill builds la lighting nova-sorceress, amok barbarian or LoD's trap assassine.
And as for the leveling? It's hack and slash. At one point you either visisted the Act 4 or 5 in hell or organized cow level runs to level up.
The "challege" was in getting the drops you wanted especially since after the great dupe wave stone of jordans became the trade currency of choice for most stuff.
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Old 2012-05-09, 09:52   Link #1347
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Yes, even if builds weren't as "viable" as others, they were still fun to figure out. I once found that barbarian helmet with the werewolf skill attached to it and almost immediately started an entirely new barbarian for it, which focused heavily on battle shouts to increase stats even further. That's just one example of how flexible the system was.

As for challenge, I wasn't really talking about that at all. Strategy was not necessary to complete the game, but it was still there for you to utilize. Diablo III doesn't offer it to the same extent. At least that's the way it looks now, and that's my whole point. However, as I said, I will get the game at some point. It's just that I feel too underwhelmed to buy it on day one.
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Old 2012-05-09, 10:45   Link #1348
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Originally Posted by ZGoten View Post
Unlocking specific skills in a certain order was the reason why I've played D2 for so long. D3 doesn't offer the same experience. They had the greatest leveling system of all time and changed it for this . . .

Yes, even if builds weren't as "viable" as others, they were still fun to figure out. I once found that barbarian helmet with the werewolf skill attached to it and almost immediately started an entirely new barbarian for it, which focused heavily on battle shouts to increase stats even further. That's just one example of how flexible the system was.
Wow, this point of view really boggles my mind... Diablo 3 simply cuts out the pointless grind you had to go through for that helmet, and you're upset? How was D2 being flexible in that instance, lol? Unlocking minor incremental skill damage increases was what made D2 for you? Leveling skills you weren't using for synergies? Diablo 3 is letting people experiment with a much wider range of skills and combinations without punishing the player. You say builds for you were fun to figure out; that's what D3 is going to be ALL ABOUT, except it's not going exclude the 99% of players who didn't have fun wasting their time trying out blind builds.
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Old 2012-05-09, 10:53   Link #1349
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Originally Posted by jedinat View Post
Unlocking minor incremental skill damage increases was what made D2 for you? Leveling skills you weren't using for synergies?
That's pretty much it.
Also D3 does not only cut out the "pointless" grind I had to go through, it also cuts out a lot of options to skill that werebarian.
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Old 2012-05-09, 11:00   Link #1350
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That's pretty much it.
Also D3 does not only cut out the "pointless" grind I had to go through, it also cuts out a lot of options to skill that werebarian.
What options?
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Old 2012-05-09, 11:05   Link #1351
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Originally Posted by jedinat View Post
What options?
What battle shouts you want, how strong each of them should be, what synergies you are going to use for them, what shouts you want to strengthen solely through item bonuses.
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Old 2012-05-09, 11:05   Link #1352
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Originally Posted by ZGoten View Post
That's pretty much it.
Also D3 does not only cut out the "pointless" grind I had to go through, it also cuts out a lot of options to skill that werebarian.
I am not sure I understand this part, unless you are talking about attributes.

For skills, D3 has skills, but you can reset them as you also can on the Diablo 2 ladder through that woman in the Rogue Camp (recent change I think).

Attributes are about the only thing D3 truly cut out imo. Then again, all one did was get the necessary strength and dexterity and dump the rest into vitality. There was no reason to deviate in any other way.


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What battle shouts you want, how strong each of them should be, what synergies you are going to use for them, what shouts you want to strengthen solely through item bonuses.
True, but runes have taken that role to an extent. You can change the effect, the strength, the duration, and even the function for every spell.

Ultimately both D2 and D3 had pros and cons to their systems. I totally disagree with the versus wars that the two systems have been dragged into.
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Old 2012-05-09, 11:07   Link #1353
Flying Dagger
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Originally Posted by ZGoten View Post
It's so weird. Diablo III is comming out, and I am not even excited. I love D2 to death, but all the media around D3 so far has just disappointed me. And when I tried the game out myself during the beta weekend, my expectations were met exactly. It's basically a streamlined and dumbed down version of Diablo II. I especially dislike the new skillsystem. Oh well, I will probably get it at some point, just because it's Diablo, but right now, I honestly could barely care less. The only thing holding up my hope are the boss battles. But it looks like Titan Quest will remain the best alternative to Diablo II.
I felt the same way when I first got my hands onto the beta a few months ago. Ever since then though, I have resisted the urge to fire up the beta again to re-explore the world and test the new changes. This abstinence rebuilt my hype for the game, and I get more excited when I think that I will once again reunite with a lot of my old friends from WoW and starcraft.
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Old 2012-05-09, 11:10   Link #1354
jedinat
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Originally Posted by ZGoten View Post
What battle shouts you want, how strong each of them should be, what synergies you are going to use for them, what shouts you want to strengthen solely through item bonuses.
Yeah, now they're all good; they took out the option for them to be poorly leveled, lol... there is still going to be +skill affixes on equipment (+% I assume).


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Originally Posted by Nixl View Post
Attributes are about the only thing D3 truly cut out imo. Then again, all one did was get the necessary strength and dexterity and dump the rest into vitality. There was no reason to deviate in any other way.
And you'll still be able to improve attributes using gems...
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Old 2012-05-09, 11:13   Link #1355
Nixl
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Lol, I did not know how I forgot about gems.

D2 looked customizable on paper, but choosing suboptimal builds going into Nightmare and Hell modes was just stupid. I can see how a lot of people had fun with mixing and matching, but there is no reason to really gimp yourself for it, especially when playing with attributes.
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Old 2012-05-09, 11:16   Link #1356
ZGoten
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Originally Posted by Nixl View Post
Lol, I did not know how I forgot about gems.

D2 looked customizable on paper, but choosing suboptimal builds going into Nightmare and Hell modes was just stupid. I can see how a lot of people had fun with mixing and matching, but there is no reason to really gimp yourself for it, especially when playing with attributes.
The fun you mentioned should be reason enough, shouldn't it? A sorceress completely specced on ice was useless in hell, but it was just so much fun to cast Blizzard and walk in circles all the time.
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Old 2012-05-09, 11:17   Link #1357
jedinat
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The fun you mentioned should be reason enough, shouldn't it? A sorceress completely specced on ice was useless in hell, but it was just so much fun to cast Blizzard and walk in circles all the time.
And now people can play with fun builds ALL THE TIME, without worrying about large consequences...
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Old 2012-05-09, 11:18   Link #1358
Duo Maxwell
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Originally Posted by ZGoten View Post
They had the greatest leveling system of all time and changed it for this . . .
No no no. It's like saying WoW has the greatest leveling system of all time.

The only reason Diablo 2 system worked because of the limited internet at that time, where there is no cookie cutter build that will be posted 1 week after the game is released, which each and everyone will follow. Trial and error doesn't work in the current world, and good way to let everyone try out their various build is let them freely change their skill sets to find out which works best for them. Furthermore, I know I will spend a lot of time playing Diablo 3, but that doesn't mean I have 12 hours a day to try and rebuild my character from scratch. Until you reach Hell, you don't know your build is viable or not.

And everything you mentioned in D2, you can do in D3, with less work. Well, unless you love to grind.
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Old 2012-05-09, 11:24   Link #1359
Nixl
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Originally Posted by ZGoten View Post
The fun you mentioned should be reason enough, shouldn't it? A sorceress completely specced on ice was useless in hell, but it was just so much fun to cast Blizzard and walk in circles all the time.
My issue with that is, until recently if you chose the suboptimal class or suboptimal spec/attribute layout you were heavily punished and there was virtually no way to fix it. Any choice and customization outside of the optimal build was penalized. I cannot say the beauty of the D2 system was customization, when you either did it the right way or not at all.

Furthermore, I would argue most people played Diablo 2 to kill monsters, play with friends, and gain fun loot, not wrestle with a 2% min/max system. There is a reason optimal builds were created.

Both D2 and D3 have pros and cons and so I do not think one is inherently worse than the other.
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Old 2012-05-09, 11:27   Link #1360
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Originally Posted by jedinat View Post
And now people can play with fun builds ALL THE TIME, without worrying about large consequences...
What consequences are you talking about? The 2010 patch allowed D2 characters to respecc their skill points, it took more effort and time to do so, but that made decisions all the more important. Also, I don't think that D3's system will allow for quite as many different builds as D2's. 110 points to invest into whatever you want is just hard to beat.

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Originally Posted by Duo Maxwell View Post
No no no. It's like saying WoW has the greatest leveling system of all time.
Except for the fact that WoW has a different leveling system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nixl
not wrestle with a 2% min/max system.
Well, that's why I played it.
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