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Old 2012-05-09, 11:34   Link #1361
Nixl
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That is why optimal builds existed. All one had to do was look on the internet to see what to do. How does one support customization with people running around with virtually the same builds for PVE and PVP. It just did not work out that well when you have people feeding others the best build.


It is true that there was about 110 point to min/max with, but you either optimized in the right way or the wrong. Any customization outside of optimized builds were just silly. D2 did have a lot of optimization, but I simply do not think it was a game of customization in the long run.
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Old 2012-05-09, 11:45   Link #1362
jedinat
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Originally Posted by ZGoten View Post
What consequences are you talking about? The 2010 patch allowed D2 characters to respecc their skill points, it took more effort and time to do so, but that made decisions all the more important.
Well I last played before 2010. They originally had it so you needed to go back to town to respecc in D3, but eventually decided this was just wasting a players time and are now using cooldowns and the Nephalem Valor buff to regulate bad gameplay practices (changing skill load out for individual encounters, etc.)

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Originally Posted by ZGoten View Post
Also, I don't think that D3's system will allow for quite as many different builds as D2's. 110 points to invest into whatever you want is just hard to beat.
http://i.imgur.com/Rt3nq.jpg

Even including the D2's incremental points (110?) Diablo 3 has more skills and skill runes and passives.
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Old 2012-05-09, 11:45   Link #1363
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Wrt the skill/state system, I agree with D3's approach.

In D2 you are stuck with your build. A hammerdin in D2 would be spamming hammers or holy bolts in all situations: I really do not find it all that fun.

In D3 you have to use the right skillset at the right time. A barbarian will not longer just mindlessly hold that whirlwind button as other skills might be better suited in that particular dungeon.

As for stat allocation: pretty much you just put enough str to wear stuff, maybe some dex to block, and the rest goes into vitality. There really isnt much choices there...
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Old 2012-05-09, 11:49   Link #1364
Nixl
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If Blizzard balanced the spells and the items better in D2 than there would have been an amazing amount of customization. Synergies were a band aid fix to the plethora of skills that that became junk spells once you got to a better tier spell (not like it worked though). Even then, synergies did not solve much, because you just spent points on junk spells just to strengthen 1 spell. Putting 20 into poison dagger and 20 into poison explosion just to use Poison Nova was not exactly exciting.

If I had a friend or family member that tried to play a fully cursemancer I would probably have had to kill them out of mercy.
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Old 2012-05-09, 11:51   Link #1365
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The picture you posted is definately promising, jedinat, but it remains to be seen, how different the individual versions of each skill truly are.

Look guys, you know more about Diablo III than I do. If you say that it beats D2 in customization, that's fine, because I want to be excited about the game. It's just that right now, I'm not convinced the new system will work that well. I will keep an eye out for first reviews and player reports though.
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Old 2012-05-09, 11:55   Link #1366
jedinat
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The picture you posted is definately promising, jedinat, but it remains to be seen, how different the individual versions of each skill truly are.

Look guys, you know more about Diablo III than I do. If you say that it beats D2 in customization, that's fine, because I want to be excited about the game. It's just that right now, I'm not convinced the new system will work that well. I will keep an eye out for first reviews and player reports though.

If you've got some time on your hands:
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/3811455085
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Old 2012-05-09, 12:11   Link #1367
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I think the issue D3 system will face two issues.

The first is the potential conflict between "play as you want" versus using the right skill at the right time.

The second is gear dependence. In D2 you had attributes and damage deriving from skill ups, but in D3 both those avenues of optimization are gone and placed solely on gear. Most if not all skills derive damage % from your weapon. Furthermore, without the ability to dump the majority of your stats into vitality, one will probably have to look towards gems and socketed armor to fill int he gap.

In that respect, it makes RMAH that much more prominent.
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Old 2012-05-09, 12:23   Link #1368
Flying Dagger
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The RMAH has a rather high tax rate. I might seek alternatives like d2jsp.

On the other hand, I can just do all my gear farming on a single toon.
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Old 2012-05-09, 12:29   Link #1369
Duo Maxwell
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Originally Posted by Nixl View Post
In that respect, it makes RMAH that much more prominent.
Or just selling thing for gold to craft gears.
Crafted gears have higher stats than most drop in the game.

I don't think I'll ever have a chance to touch RMAH, seeing there are roughly 11 of my friends who's going to play D3. It means most of my found gears will be traded shared among us.
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Old 2012-05-09, 12:43   Link #1370
aohige
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We could try and convince someone who doens't like a game otherwise, but I have NEVER seen such arguments actually accomplish anything.

You don't like it, you don't have to play it. There are plenty of other games around, and your opinion is never wrong, it's just yours. And there are plenty of times when an opinion of a game changes much later, and you decide to pick it up.

Besides, knowing Blizzard, the game will probably be completely different entity a year from now.
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Old 2012-05-09, 13:05   Link #1371
felix
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Mathematics based build systems = mathematically there is only 1 answer = the illusion of customization.

D3 fixes it, or tries to.
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Old 2012-05-09, 13:14   Link #1372
ZGoten
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That doesn't make sense at all. Just the fact alone that Diablo 2 may have only had few "viable" option doesn't mean that it can't be different.
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Old 2012-05-09, 13:27   Link #1373
aohige
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D3 has countless flexible "viable" options. D2 basically only had few viable options per class, and everything else was less than optimal. Not only that, but D3's options are interchangable at any time.

That's why you actually have more choices.

It's quite obvious this is getting repeated over and over without sticking.
It makes sense. You just don't get it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nixl View Post
I think the issue D3 system will face two issues.

The first is the potential conflict between "play as you want" versus using the right skill at the right time.

The second is gear dependence. In D2 you had attributes and damage deriving from skill ups, but in D3 both those avenues of optimization are gone and placed solely on gear. Most if not all skills derive damage % from your weapon. Furthermore, without the ability to dump the majority of your stats into vitality, one will probably have to look towards gems and socketed armor to fill int he gap.

In that respect, it makes RMAH that much more prominent.
On the other hand, it also means that you can change your spec to match your new gear without having to go through countless hours or resources.
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Old 2012-05-09, 13:31   Link #1374
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^I'm sorry aohige, but for the D2 vs. D3 debate, you are too late. That's already over and I posted my final statement on it some time ago. My previous post had nothing to do with D3 or its potential lack of choices compared to D2. Please carefully observe what the topic actually is before making accusations. Your post before this one came too late as well, implying that I have an unchangeable view on the game when my post before that actually proved the exact opposite. Now, however, I was merely talking about the system of a skill tree in general, not about specific games or anything.
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Old 2012-05-09, 13:40   Link #1375
aohige
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^I'm sorry aohige, but for the D2 vs. D3 debate, you are too late. That's already over and I posted my final statement on it some time ago. My previous post had nothing to do with D3 or its potential lack of choices compared to D2. Please carefully observe what the topic actually is before making accusations. Your post before this one came too late as well, implying that I have an unchangeable view on the game when my post before that actually proved the exact opposite. Now, however, I was merely talking about the system of a skill tree in general, not about specific games or anything.
I actually said view on the game IS changable, but it may take time.
I also said opinion on liking or not liking a game is never wrong, it's simply subjective.
As for your "final words", my statement is exactly tailored to fit your final statement. You said you'll keep eye on it. What did I say?
Quote:
And there are plenty of times when an opinion of a game changes much later, and you decide to pick it up.

Besides, knowing Blizzard, the game will probably be completely different entity a year from now.
So... boomerang?

As for the skill system in general, you did mention specifically "D2".
And it still sticks. D2's skill system did not allow for a flexible viable options, and seriously, you already know this. I don't think there's any room for argument there, even the developers themselves admit it.

If you mean a similar system to D2, then perhaps you may be right. But I don't think I've seen it implimented to actually give broader options.
This is the same reason why WoW's skill tree system is getting revamped in Pandaria. They're going to be much simpler, giving "actual" choices rather than an artificial options that aren't useful.
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Old 2012-05-09, 13:47   Link #1376
ZGoten
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D2's skill system did not allow for a flexible viable options, and seriously, you already know this. I don't think there's any room for argument there, even the developers themselves admit it.
But that was not the point of my post at all. The point was to say, that just because it didn't work for Diablo II, does not mean it can't work. Your post does not follow up on this whatsoever, but instead brings D3 back in the game and accuses me of not admitting that D2's system was flawed and suggests that we are still holding up the same conversation as hours ago, which we are not.
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Old 2012-05-09, 13:49   Link #1377
aohige
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But that was not the point of my post at all. The point was to say, that just because it didn't work for Diablo II, does not mean it can't work. You post does not follow up on this whatsoever, but instead brings D3 back in the game and accuses me of not admitting that D2's system was flawed.
Do you actually have an example of the system working the way you say?
Or making a hyperthetical what-ifs?
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Old 2012-05-09, 14:00   Link #1378
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So now you understand what I'm saying.

About your question, hyperthetical what-ifs are the basis of every development in game design. I have no example to show that there can in fact be an action rpg based on a skill tree system, that offers many different viable or competitive builds for each and every class. That being sad, I don't need to have one. The idea that a skill tree system can never achieve such a goal is quite frankly ridiculous. I'm not saying balancing the skills, options and numbers is easy, but I really hope you are not suggesting that unless there is one game that gets it right it is foolish to believe such a system can work on a greater level.
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Old 2012-05-09, 14:02   Link #1379
aohige
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So now you understand what I'm saying.

About your question, hyperthetical what-ifs are the basis of every development in game design. I have no example to show that there can in fact be an action rpg based on a skill tree system, that offers many different viable or competitive builds for each and evry class. That being sad, I don't need to have one. The idea that a skill tree system can never achieve such a goal is quite frankly ridiculous. I'm not saying balancing the skills, options and numbers is easy, but I really hope you are not suggesting that unless there is one game that gets it right it is foolish to believe such a system can work on a greater level.
No, of course not. But "looks good on paper" doesn't mean much if it doesn't get accomplished, especially for a system that's been around for over a decade.
Don't you think it's much more logical to improve the system to make it work, such as what D3 and WoW Panderia is doing, rather than trying to get the older system to work?

Such is also the logical steps of designing a game.
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Old 2012-05-09, 14:04   Link #1380
Duo Maxwell
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It's also foolish to believe that if you stick to one idea, it will eventually work out. Time is money, and I think you know it. If they found a better solution, then why would they scrap it because "it's not what the old one is"?
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