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Old 2009-05-25, 23:10   Link #1
WanderingKnight
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Circumcision

This might just be material for the Silly Questions thread, but I'm so deeply curious about this that I really feel the need to start a new thread about it.

I was watching some old P&T's Bullshit! episodes, and one of them dealt with circumcision. Of course, I agree with them on the idea that forcibly cutting off part of a baby's penis is a barbaric and utterly disgusting practice, on par with the ritual mutilation of women's genitalia in some African tribes the UN likes to shout loudly about. No surprises there. My curiosity was piqued, though, not by the horrific scenes of actual circumcisions taking place they showed, but by the rough number they raised of 60% of all babies in the United States being circumcised at birth. Not only that, but they also interviewed several regular people there, and they all talked about not being circumcised as being extremely rare. One couple, in particular, was very afraid that their soon-to-be-born baby would feel "different" for keeping his penis' foreskin.

Which begs the question: is that truly so in the US? Are most men circumcised? If so, why? Why in the blazes was this terrible, heinous, completely pointless act established in such a widespread manner?

And finally, why does the UN say nothing about it? Oh wait, don't bother--I know the answer to that one.
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Old 2009-05-25, 23:14   Link #2
yezhanquan
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Well, I have my circumcision due to medical reasons. Was taking too long in the toilet to pee. My older brother isn't circumcised. And truth be told, without my circumcision, I might have had some hygiene problems during my army days.

I think of it as just another operation. Chill. However, female circumcision IS a problem in some parts of Africa, again due mostly to hygiene issues.
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Old 2009-05-25, 23:16   Link #3
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Oh, of course. I'm not condemning either the willful decision of getting circumcised or the use of that for particular cases for medical reasons. But practicing it on a baby who has had only a few hours of life, who has absolutely no take in the decision? What manner of barbarism is that?
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Old 2009-05-25, 23:19   Link #4
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Well, I believe it is a Jewish/Islamic custom. Outside of that, yeah. It is strange to do this operation without a need for it. Besides yourself, who is interested to know if your penis foreskin is intact?
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Old 2009-05-25, 23:20   Link #5
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I never had circumcision and not bothered by it at all (since I practice good hygiene practices)... but I don't think they should do it on babies because they don't have a choice if they want to or not... I think it's a cruel practice to do on babies and shouldn't really be allowed for a person that young.
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Old 2009-05-25, 23:23   Link #6
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It is an operation, so unless there is a need, don't put the baby through unwarranted risks.
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Old 2009-05-25, 23:51   Link #7
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Wow! This a loaded discussion.... Reminds me of the post:
Spoiler for sorry NSW:
Everyone, had a good laugh that night.


Back to the topic, some religions example Jewish. Have a huge celebration. Its call a Bris Ceremony.
In Judaism, a baby's circumcision is much more than surgery. A Jewish baby's circumcision marks his entrance into the covenant with God. I dont agree with circumcision either!

In other cases the parents decide whether the son is to be circumcise. Now I have never really hear of a female getting circumcise. So of course I looked it up. 5 mins later I see it was call 'female genital mutilation' then change to female circumcision which sounds better? Either way the wording alone sounds painful. I didn't know they practice that in Africa.




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Old 2009-05-26, 00:06   Link #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
Oh, of course. I'm not condemning either the willful decision of getting circumcised or the use of that for particular cases for medical reasons. But practicing it on a baby who has had only a few hours of life, who has absolutely no take in the decision? What manner of barbarism is that?
You know, I'll tread very very dangerously on this PG-13 borderline and say from a female point of view, sometimes (not always) but sometimes it can be a preference for oral sex.
The idea that a guy is 'clean' and has no extra skin which may trap dirt, catch urine or hang over (if his hygiene isn't up to par) is a similar mentality underling the reasons for religious believers and so they perform it on baby because it is a baby, rather than a toddler or a young boy.
The kid then grows up with his penis in this manner and lives with it, as far as I can tell to lots of people around me offline (my parents, relatives etc believe in it), it hasn't done any significant damage to any of my male siblings or relatives both old and young and typically no one wants to completely damage their baby so I doubt the rabbis (not sure what they call the Jewish men who perform this) are gonna cause more harm then necessary.

Them being men themselves, I'm sure they truly value the necessity for a fully functional penis.
I've had similar people with the same attitude to you wanderknight for ear piercing have a go at me.
(No, it's not an operation) but the exact same principle.

Would you pierce your baby daughter’s ears?
Me: Yep.
"How can you put your child through that!!!? How can you put holes in your child ears!?!!? It's a defenceless baby who has no say, yada yada, blah blah.
Me: uhh... it was done to me when I was 4 months old, I've no freaking memory of this and for that I'm glad it was done back then and not as a toddler, child or teen.
And sorry to disappoint you, but no, I'm not gonna go sue my parents for physical abuse and taking away my 'free will' as a baby, anymore than I'm gonna sue them for the name they gave me or the food they fed me or the beats I got as a kid for misbehaving.

We grow up with it and don't really question it cause it's already a part of us.
I'm not sure where the anger comes from per se.
If circumcision really affected a man's ability to be erect (again, lots and lots of debates on this, but cannot get into it on Animesuki) or affected his ability to urinate or inflicted some major ass long term damage which destroys his self as a man, then yes, please go call the UN on it and report it as a gross offence on human rights.

Otherwise, it's purely a cultural, religious choice, one of which if you didn't grow up with or think 'meh' of it, you're always gonna feel like WanderingKnight's opening post of
"Oh my gosh, the barbarism!!! Oh whyyyyyy!!?"

So... I'm not sure what you exactly are looking for with this thread. Mutual people to join the angry mob with you, or a genuine interest of hearing people on the other side of the coin and learning different reasons or opinions from men who have been circumcised.
Just from reading your OP, I sure feel a lot of apathy going on here, makes me wonder if I just wasted my time with this post
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Last edited by Mystique; 2009-05-26 at 00:21.
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Old 2009-05-26, 00:30   Link #9
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I don't see it warrating anger. I personally wouldn't want to do something like that until the child was old enough to understand what was going on or the signifigance of it (unless it's for purely medical reasons)

Then again my nuclear familiy is angostic (me) /non praticing christan (mom) /areligious (bro and dad) and rest are christian so it's a non factor for us.
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Old 2009-05-26, 00:34   Link #10
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Uh... I was just genuinely surprised it was that popular in the US. People here don't do it to their babies unless they're from a kosher Jewish family.

Quote:
Would you pierce your baby daughter’s ears?
It's not a fair comparison. Have you ever seen a video of a circumcision? It's one of the most disgusting things I've seen in my entire life. I can hardly believe you can compare a minimum hole on your ear which doesn't even hurt to the child to the surgical removal of a sizeable portion of one of the body's most sensitive parts.

Quote:
We grow up with it and don't really question it cause it's already a part of us.
Which is sort of the damn point. These things should be questioned. If it's tradition, or whatever the fuck it is, it's terrible. As I said before, the UN makes sure to paint the mutilation of female genitalia in some places of Africa as barbaric and inhuman as possible, but then there's nothing being said as to the forced suffering of a baby because of a decision he wasn't allowed to make, and will impact him for the rest of his life? Let me cut my own damn penis, when I grow older, if I feel like it.

Quote:
Otherwise, it's purely a cultural, religious choice, one of which if you didn't grow up with or think 'meh' of it, you're always gonna feel like WanderingKnight's opening post of
"Oh my gosh, the barbarism!!! Oh whyyyyyy!!?"
I posted it here because I was flabbergasted by the numbers I heard on circumcision on the US. I always knew it existed (and I've always thought it was a hideous practice), but I definitely didn't know it was so widespread. And with little point to it, because the hygiene problem is simply solved with a little soap.

PS: There are a lot of reasons why the tradition exists in Judaism, but they're kinda out of the scope of this thread.
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Old 2009-05-26, 00:43   Link #11
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I assume it's this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by kidshealth.com
On the plus side, circumcised infants are less likely to develop urinary tract infections (UTIs), especially in the first year of life. UTIs are about 10 times more common in uncircumcised compared with circumcised infants. However, even with this increased risk of UTI, only 1% or less of uncircumcised males will be affected.

Circumcised men may also be at lower risk for penile cancer, although the disease is rare in both circumcised and uncircumcised males. Some studies indicate that the procedure might offer an additional line of defense against sexually transmitted diseases (STDs), including HIV.

Penile problems, such as irritation, inflammation, and infection, are more common in uncircumcised males. It's easier to keep a circumcised penis clean, although uncircumcised boys can learn how to clean beneath the foreskin once the foreskin becomes retractable (usually some time before age 5).
Quote:
Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
It's not a fair comparison. Have you ever seen a video of a circumcision? It's one of the most disgusting things I've seen in my entire life. I can hardly believe you can compare a minimum hole on your ear which doesn't even hurt to the child to the surgical removal of a sizeable portion of one of the body's most sensitive parts.
Just because a surgery looks disgusting doesn't make it horrible. Circumcision are done by cerified physicians, not by whoever does them in the African tribe vaginal mutilation incidents. They don't compare.

Last edited by Dilla; 2009-05-26 at 01:29.
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Old 2009-05-26, 01:03   Link #12
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Actually, I don't think a large part of the penis is cut away. It's only the skin. If they cut away more, how are they going to stop the bleeding?
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Old 2009-05-26, 01:07   Link #13
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Never had any problem after getting mine done when i was 10 (for hygiene reason).

It's easier to keep myself clean and no functional problem that i have observed
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Old 2009-05-26, 01:12   Link #14
Dilla
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yezhanquan View Post
Actually, I don't think a large part of the penis is cut away. It's only the skin. If they cut away more, how are they going to stop the bleeding?
It's just some foreskin. Any complications are only .2-.3% possible, and even then it's just minor bleeding or small, localized infection that can be easily taken care of by any doctor.

It's not a hackjob.
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Old 2009-05-26, 01:20   Link #15
Mystique
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
It's not a fair comparison. Have you ever seen a video of a circumcision? It's one of the most disgusting things I've seen in my entire life. I can hardly believe you can compare a minimum hole on your ear which doesn't even hurt to the child to the surgical removal of a sizeable portion of one of the body's most sensitive parts.
I was comparing purely on your argument of the 'free will' as a baby aspect and how it'll "affect him for the rest of his life."
Make it evident that it'll absolutely effect his ability to be erect, to urinate or severely make his penis dysfunctional and provide zero potential benefits and then yes, we have a serious issue here.
Psychological effect?
Well, I gave my personal opinion as a person growing up with something done to me which did cause me pain and has left my ears with holes, no memory of my 0-6month old days, sorry to say.

And I did say 'it's not an operation', but the revulsion of 'putting a hole in your baby's ears', of inflicting something that'll change a person's body and cause some discomfort when doing so, is keenly felt.
Quote:
Which is sort of the damn point. These things should be questioned. If it's tradition, or whatever the fuck it is, it's terrible. As I said before, the UN makes sure to paint the mutilation of female genitalia in some places of Africa as barbaric and inhuman as possible, but then there's nothing being said as to the forced suffering of a baby because of a decision he wasn't allowed to make, and will impact him for the rest of his life? Let me cut my own damn penis, when I grow older, if I feel like it.
It comes under "forced suffering", cause come on Wanderingknight, girls don't really need to have their ears pierced now do they, but it can still be painful, a child will most likely cry about it. It's definitely quicker and less delicate than a procedure of circumcision and it makes me curious now about the vids they showed, if it was more for the 'inducing fear' factor than anything else.
"Is there one set method to circumcision in which can offer less pain and discomfort, compared to other methods."
Should look into that too as well, technology and methods I'm sure have improved over the centuries compared to many many hundreds of years ago.
(Circumcision of the 18th century? Sounded like fun~~)

As for circumcision, yeah I'm well aware of it procedure wise. If we're really gonna go into the nitty gritty of the procedure itself on a visual level, then we may as well show vids of liposuction, face lifts, ligament repairing, taking tonsils out cause it's all pretty gruesome, but as someone said above, it's not a hackjob. -.-

I already touched on a bit concerning 'cleanliness/hygiene', which someone above has posted factual stuff.
My parents went to a practitioner who was Jewish, I don't think most parents would get it done willy nilly just anywhere, on the higher risk that the person is gonna screw up their baby.
(Again more research is needed to see if they're 'licensed' practitioners or undergo some kinda official training and the rest within a group who practices this regularly)
Quote:
I posted it here because I was flabbergasted by the numbers I heard on circumcision on the US. I always knew it existed (and I've always thought it was a hideous practice), but I definitely didn't know it was so widespread. And with little point to it, because the hygiene problem is simply solved with a little soap.
Well can't speak for America in terms of that number much.
On a religious and cultural note, it'd probably derive from Jews, Muslims and black (perhaps hispanic too?) people. Then add that there's a crap load of Christians in America (depending on their branch) may also have that influence too.
But I'd need a stat table of how much of the American population that above categories make up.
So the remaining groups likely to do this or add to that 60% figure would be the group who'd you wanna look into their reasons, I suppose.

And hygiene... *shudders*
You'd think common sense would apply, but I can ask this question to you guys, how do you clean your penises?
When you finish urinating do you use a tissue to wipe, similar to how females do?
If you need to take a leak in the street, the droplets of urine, how do you clean that off from around your foreskin area?
Or do you just tuck it back in and it stains the underwear until you go for a shower?
And even then, I hear this sometimes, not all guys shower everyday even.
(And then to think of receiving oral...) x.x

And so on.
No you don't have to answer above, *laughs*, but they're questions that girls wonder about in terms of male hygiene in that area.
Something tells me there are a fair number who aren't too conscious or fussy about good hygiene on a general everyday level...
Yes, there can be females just as bad, however guys sure enough are vocal about the 'smell' or 'taste' of a woman when hashing over going down on her.
Many of us are incredibly self conscious as a result and seeing as we've got a fair amount to consider in terms of keeping vaginas clean, I hazard to say women keep real good tabs on it hygiene wise.

Now I'm itching to get my debating nemesis Ledgem on this scene, my own curiousity has been piqued to hear from more Jewish people themselves, but somehow, I doubt there are revolts of young Jewish men going against this purely on the reasons of what the procedure details and cause it was done to them as a baby, thus loss of their free will.
It really is taken into the package of:
'I was named this, my ears were pierced like this, my penis was circumcised for said belief, I was fed this as a kid for 'whatever supposed reasons', I don't eat pork cause said religious reason'.

It's simply a part of who we are influenced by the decisions and choices are parents made when we were babies of which we don't have memories of and are just natural to us. *shrugs*
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Last edited by Mystique; 2009-05-26 at 02:00.
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Old 2009-05-26, 01:23   Link #16
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It was standard practice in the US for at least most of the 20th Century for both hygiene reasons, medical reasons (forestalls certain problems), and religious reasons (most Christians in the US, biblical yadayada meh). It is most easily done with the least side effects very early in life. Its only quite recently that the *why* is being re-examined in the US from a risk analysis viewpoint. Most doctors will now skip it unless specifically requested.

Unlike the female mutilation in Africa, it doesn't negatively affect sexual function at all so that's a terrible comparison.

The biggest argument against it is simply the "do no surgery unless necessary" philosophy since *any* surgery has a statistical risk.

Of course, in the 20th C., US doctors routinely removed tonsils at the first sign of infection -- not many people my age *have* tonsils. They're rethinking the value of that as well.
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Old 2009-05-26, 01:25   Link #17
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I was circumcised as a baby (not for religious reasons) and I don't see any problem with it. My parents simply did it because they felt it would eliminate any hygiene issues when I grew older and because having an operation like that won't effect you as a little baby. Makes perfect sense to me because it isn't like you are losing much, just some excess skin that can lead to hygiene issues.
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Old 2009-05-26, 02:14   Link #18
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It's something done here when you're 11 or 12. That being said, you can consider it a rite of passage. Peer pressure to undergo it is extreme, especially among kids that age and you're not considered a real man if you don't undergo. Then again, I only found out about the benefits of an intact foreskin when I had mine removed, so it's moot.
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Old 2009-05-26, 02:49   Link #19
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My son was circumcised when he was born. Had I been more informed, and not have dealt with nearly 14 hours of hard labour and nearly a forced c-section I might've chosen differently, but as far as I knew, back then (1997) it was the normal proper way of things. I had never (and still to this day have never) seen an uncircumcised man. My husband, my male partner, and all my previous mates were all cut.

That being said, my partners decided to NOT circumcise their son. I'd have to ask them why exactly, I recall we had a discussion on it but that was a good 6+ years ago and I cannot recall it. Suffice to say it is becoming less "normal", I suspect, as time goes on. I daresay my grandson(s) may not be circumcised, and I'm OK with that; it's a case by case basis.

I cannot compare it with ear piercing, though, as it is an entirely different set of procedures, I do note we chose to NOT pierce our daughter's ears. 1, I had empowered and educated myself on what exactly I wanted out of things, 2, Don't know if she'd WANT her ears pierced. She'll get them pierced at her coming of age, as can my son.

Looking back, I kind of regret not knowing what I know now, I may not've circumcised him, as we're by NO means jewish or any other religious sect that'd require it. But it's too late now. As he gets older and our talks evolve from just the normal "prepare for sex talks" that we have now, to "what are your plans for your future family" type, then I'll bring up the subject, so he can educate himself BEFORE his mate is pregnant (if he has a female mate). Perhaps they will have the education needed to make the choice, that I did not.
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Old 2009-05-26, 03:14   Link #20
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The process itself is not painful. What hurts a lot is the stitching afterwards. Damn needle comes back and forth piercing skin every time.
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