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Old 2009-05-27, 04:52   Link #61
Alchemist007
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Or stretch XD
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Old 2009-05-27, 04:53   Link #62
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I don't miss my foreskin one bit. That's all I could say.
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Old 2009-05-27, 10:39   Link #63
Dilla
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Originally Posted by Alchemist007 View Post
Oh in that case, ALL POINTS REJECTED.



I find this point interesting because the P&T video said that the uncirc'd increased pleasure for the female as well (for that particular couple at least, since they both had the circ and uncirc experience I think it's a legit point from both sides).
I don't think one couple on a show hosted by two magicians of all people should really debunk people's reasonings.
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Old 2009-05-27, 12:23   Link #64
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Infant circumcision is wrong; males should decide if they want their foreskin, not their parents. (Of course if it is absolutely needed for medical reasons then it's okay.)

It comes off as (slightly) hypocritical to criticize female circumcision (for children) and tolerate male circumcision (for children/infants).
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Old 2009-05-27, 12:58   Link #65
Alchemist007
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Originally Posted by Dilla View Post
I don't think one couple on a show hosted by two magicians of all people should really debunk people's reasonings.
Who said anything about debunking anything, heard people beg for opinions from both sides so I mentioned one. And as said earlier, there's mixed opinions in that category as well. And those 'magicians of all people' have the best damn show on the planet.
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Old 2009-05-27, 12:59   Link #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Autumn Demon View Post
Infant circumcision is wrong; males should decide if they want their foreskin, not their parents. (Of course if it is absolutely needed for medical reasons then it's okay.)

It comes off as (slightly) hypocritical to criticize female circumcision (for children) and tolerate male circumcision (for children/infants).
Female circumcision is a polite way of saying genital mutilation. It can involve removal of the clitoris, the labia majora and/or minor, and in some cases the lips are sewn together with only a small hole left for urine/menstruation.

Male circumcision, while regarded by some as mutilation, does NOT prevent you from reaching orgasm, having sexual intercourse, or taking a piss. Yes, it can and extremely rarely has gone horribly wrong, but you can hardly call it an abusive technique and compare it to the terrible things females go through in some cultures.

Circumcision provides some benefits (mostly in risk reduction and overall hygiene) and some negatives (someone is taking a sharp object to your penis in a non emergency way). The decision should be left to the parents but of course there will be some who won't be happy no matter what is decided.
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Old 2009-05-27, 13:07   Link #67
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Originally Posted by Solace View Post
The decision should be left to the parents but of course there will be some who won't be happy no matter what is decided.
If a man who is uncircumcised is unhappy, he can go and get the procedure done. However, if a man who is circumcised is unhappy, there's not much he can do. Having a baby boy's genitals mutilated takes away his right to decide for himself.

The "benefits" of circumcision can all be obtained without chopping off a natural body part (use condoms, and wash under the foreskin!), and do not balance out the risks from an unnecessary surgery.
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Old 2009-05-27, 13:24   Link #68
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I still have my foreskin and i usually never think of being circumcised, maybe the thought of IT getting cut off
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Old 2009-05-27, 13:40   Link #69
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Originally Posted by justsomeguy View Post
If a man who is uncircumcised is unhappy, he can go and get the procedure done. However, if a man who is circumcised is unhappy, there's not much he can do. Having a baby boy's genitals mutilated takes away his right to decide for himself.
It's not mutilation, since they are done by certified physicians. The majority of boys in America, me included, haven't been violated, and I don't like the way that you anti-circumcision people keep implying that. And actually, there is a procedure that recreates the foreskin called foreskin restoration that can be done surgically or non-surgically.

Quote:
The "benefits" of circumcision can all be obtained without chopping off a natural body part (use condoms, and wash under the foreskin!), and do not balance out the risks from an unnecessary surgery.
And not all people do not do these things, and you may say will it serves them right. But, what happens when their misfortunes affect others?

Last edited by Dilla; 2009-05-27 at 13:55.
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Old 2009-05-27, 13:56   Link #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dilla View Post
It's not mutilation, since they are done by certified physicians.
Only in developed countries. And even in developed countries has circumcision sometimes led to death.
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Last edited by VVayfarer; 2009-05-27 at 14:38. Reason: Typo
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Old 2009-05-27, 13:57   Link #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justsomeguy View Post
If a man who is uncircumcised is unhappy, he can go and get the procedure done. However, if a man who is circumcised is unhappy, there's not much he can do. Having a baby boy's genitals mutilated takes away his right to decide for himself.

The "benefits" of circumcision can all be obtained without chopping off a natural body part (use condoms, and wash under the foreskin!), and do not balance out the risks from an unnecessary surgery.
Mutilation is so strong of a word. Have you ever seen pictures of actual mutilations? It's incredibly unpleasant to see. I've seen images of female circumcisions....I would never wish that upon any girl.

Male circumcision is more akin to "I got my ear pierced" as far as body modifications go. Mystique covered many of the medical benefits earlier in the thread - they go beyond basic "keep it clean" ideas.
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Old 2009-05-27, 13:58   Link #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dilla View Post
It's not mutilation, since they are done by certified physicians. The majority of boys in America, me included, haven't been violated, and I don't like the way that you anti-circumcision people keep implying that. And actually, there is a procedure that recreates the foreskin called foreskin restoration that can be done surgically or non-surgically.
Unless you're Jewish, in which case a mohel does it.
You have been violated, regardless of whether you think so or not (and who performs the surgery is irrelevant). Part of your body was altered without your consent, for a reason that was not a medical emergency.
Foreskin restoration costs money, and is a surgical procedure that one would not have to undergo if one had not had their foreskin removed in the first place. Two surgeries, both with their own risks, for circumsized men wanting to repair their genitalia, versus only one for adult men who want to remove their foreskins.

Quote:
A not all people do not do these things, and you may say will it serves them right. But, what happens when their misfortunes affect others?
How would the cut/uncut status of a penis affect others? A woman can always choose not to have sex with a man who does not wash his dick or use a rubber.
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Old 2009-05-27, 14:12   Link #73
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Originally Posted by VVayfarer View Post
Only in developed countries. And even in developed countries has circumcision sometimes lead to death.
They talk of some deaths pre-1950s, the death dealing the deaths from the same African tribes that do the female cutting(that is mutilation), and 30 reported deaths, five of which wasn't becuase of the circumcision itself, out of ten of millions of recorded ones.
Quote:
Originally Posted by justsomeguy View Post
Unless you're Jewish, in which case a mohel does it.
You have been violated, regardless of whether you think so or not (and who performs the surgery is irrelevant). Part of your body was altered without your consent, for a reason that was not a medical emergency.
A baby rights are in the hands of the parents, my father wanted me circumcised. I was not violated. See the vaccination arugment somewhere in this thread, it's closer than you think.

Quote:
Foreskin restoration costs money, and is a surgical procedure that one would not have to undergo if one had not had their foreskin removed in the first place. Two surgeries, both with their own risks, for circumsized men wanting to repair their genitalia, versus only one for adult men who want to remove their foreskins.
I don't see how they'll want there foreskin back, anyway. If they were circumcised when they were born, then they'll find their privates natural. I remember the first time I saw uncircumcised men on this one of those African documentaries, I thought that was unnatural. It's not that big a deal.


Quote:
How would the cut/uncut status of a penis affect others? A woman can always choose not to have sex with a man who does not wash his dick or use a rubber.
Yeah, becuase every man tells there partner that they have an infection or an STD.
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Old 2009-05-27, 14:13   Link #74
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Originally Posted by Solace View Post
Mutilation is so strong of a word. Have you ever seen pictures of actual mutilations? It's incredibly unpleasant to see. I've seen images of female circumcisions....I would never wish that upon any girl.
I disagree. Just because the end result is made to have a "nice" appearance does not change the fact of mutilation. If you had your hand chopped off against your will, but the perpetrators were nice enough to sew it up and fix the scarring, would you consider it not to be mutilation?

Quote:
Male circumcision is more akin to "I got my ear pierced" as far as body modifications go. Mystique covered many of the medical benefits earlier in the thread - they go beyond basic "keep it clean" ideas.
Except that getting ears pierced is consensual.
The "prevention of cancer" is irrelevant. No other body part is removed until it does become a health issue, and unless it can be demonstrated that the relevant cancers are inevitable (rate above 50%), the foreskin should stay on.
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Old 2009-05-27, 14:18   Link #75
Alchemist007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solace View Post
Male circumcision is more akin to "I got my ear pierced" as far as body modifications go.
I certainly see it as mutilation
Quote:
Mystique covered many of the medical benefits earlier in the thread - they go beyond basic "keep it clean" ideas.
Only in medically required emergencies. If my arm threatened my well being, I'd have it removed. Nothing I saw other than that was anything beyond cosmetics. All the points above Circumcision is Optional on the last page fall into the medically acceptable reasoning. Everything but the last point below which has opposing arguments.

My point is, why force it on babies (unless medically needed/religious things (which I will leave my opinion absent on))? If they want it so much, they can get it later.
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Last edited by Alchemist007; 2009-05-27 at 14:33.
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Old 2009-05-27, 14:23   Link #76
justsomeguy
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Originally Posted by Dilla View Post
A baby rights are in the hands of the parents, my father wanted me circumcised. I was not violated. See the vaccination arugment somewhere in this thread, it's closer than you think.
Infection rates being what they are, it has been demonstrated that vaccination has in fact saved lives and prevented permanent debilitation. Circumcision has no such benefits. Why did your father want you to be circumsized?

Quote:
I don't see how they'll want there foreskin back, anyway. If they were circumcised when they were born, then they'll find their privates natural. I remember the first time I saw uncircumcised men on this one of those African documentaries, I thought that was unnatural.
"Natural" as in being born with it, as in foreskins evolved for a reason.

Quote:
Yeah, becuase every man tells there partner that they have an infection or an STD.
Women (and men) have responsibility in who they choose to sleep with. Are you suggesting that just by looking at cut/uncut status, you can tell who has diseases? A cut man can be just as dishonest.
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Old 2009-05-27, 14:36   Link #77
Dilla
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Originally Posted by justsomeguy View Post
Infection rates being what they are, it has been demonstrated that vaccination has in fact saved lives and prevented permanent debilitation. Circumcision has no such benefits. Why did your father want you to be circumsized?
The point is that some parents are arguing that a lot of the vaccinations(measles particulary), despite having a very low chance of serious side effects, aren't necessary enough to risk debilitation for diseases that are either rare or can be wiped away by the child's immune system. Circumcision has been known to prevent UTI and penile infection, but those are rare anyway.


Quote:
"Natural" as in being born with it, as in foreskins evolved for a reason.
You misunderstand me, I was referring to the fact that being circumcised as a youth, I thought my penis was natural while those African tribesmen had done something, like what they did with their ears.

I'm saying that anyone who was circumcised as a baby would think that their look was natural to them, so unless it was for fashion, there wouldn't be a reason complain about it.


Quote:
Women (and men) have responsibility in who they choose to sleep with. Are you suggesting that just by looking at cut/uncut status, you can tell who has diseases? A cut man can be just as dishonest.
Er. . .what? You lost me here. I said that circumcision has been known to help prevent HIV, moreso than un-circumcision at least. You said that this could be avoided by using a condom. I said that everyone doesn't do this and could affect future partners. Then, we got muddled somehow.

I'm done again, becuase we'll be going in circles in a couple of posts.
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Old 2009-05-27, 14:44   Link #78
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Originally Posted by Mystique View Post
*hands Ledgem a gun*
You can shoot me with that later if I screwed up, but the reason I remembered/mentioned ya based on your religion was cause I've seen instances of you referring to that on the religion thread, on the Israel and Palestine thread and so on, thus already exposed.
If I overstepped my mark however, I do apologise.
Nah, I was just trying to be comical. I've stated on these forums before that I was of Jewish extraction, although I doubt that many people here even remember who I am. It didn't matter to me either way

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Originally Posted by Mystique View Post
For a case like this, I sincerely wanted to hear from someone within one of the dominant groups concerning this, whether you'd be for/against it was my own curiosity, I just know we don't agree on a lot of the same things
Well, I hope it was somewhat insightful. Either way, after reading over your arguments and going over my own experiences, I guess I'd be more supportive of going ahead with a circumcision for my own child than not.

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Originally Posted by Mystique View Post
The reason being to really, and truly be straight with yourself and as men typically, how many of you seriously clean up thoroughly every single time you urinate or wash your hands after.
I wash my hands afterward, although admittedly I do not wash it to medical standards (which is to say, use soap, and then scrub with warm water for the amount of time that it would take you to sing the "happy birthday" song or a song of similar length). I use soap, of course, and always use warm water, but the amount of time that I scrub is a fraction of the total time to recite that song.

I just figured I'd mention, though, that anyone who tells you that they "thoroughly" clean up after a urination is likely lying. In America, at least, there is no toilet paper provided by the urinals; you're expected to "shake clean" and that's that - there's no way to wipe or anything of that sort.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Alchemist007 View Post
It's you and your partner's decision but I'm telling you, unless there's some specific medical reason, the 'extra maintainence' is BS. Tell him to shower often and that's all you need
Do you know what passes for washing your hands? I've seen people use the bathroom, turn on the faucet, flick their hands under the water (as if the water were painful to touch!) and then turn the water off. There - hands washed. They are no cleaner than before that "washing" but now the person believes that they've washed their hands.

Which is to say, "tell someone to shower" is a large oversimplification. I'm also doubtful that even if a person were to shower in the manner that you and I know would actually do something (scrubbing and using soap), I'm pretty sure that you need to clean that region a bit differently.


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Originally Posted by Irenicus View Post
Hello Ledgem! It's been a while. Although I have to admit this is quite a strange place to say hello.
Indeed, indeed. Since we're like two trains passing in the dark of the night, might as well ask how've you been and how's the family? My activity here will drop off soon enough, but if you ever feel like reading my babble you can PM me - that sends me an email with the message (but visitor messages don't do that).


Quote:
Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
As I said before, your armpits get just as dirty, and if they don't wash them I guess they enjoy smelling like ass?
If I may take out a tangent here, your armpits do not get just as dirty as your genitals nor your anus. Your armpits secrete sweat, just like the rest of your body, but part of the reason that they're prone to generating an odor is because they don't get "aired out" as well as most of the rest of your body. Because of the odor, people assume that it's dirty. In reality, the secreted sweat has a number of antibiotic properties.

Your anus and genitals are a different story. The anus is the gateway to the large intestine, which is teeming with bacteria (bacteria that are beneficial and necessary to you, but still bacteria). We know what moves through there, but what you may not have known is that approximately 30% of your fecal matter is made of bacteria by mass. Smells aside, those bacteria can cause problems.

The urinary tract is sterile, and if it isn't then you have big problems (urinary tract infection, which, if left untreated, has a very high chance of backing up to your kidney and killing you). However, just because the tract is sterile doesn't mean that the region surrounding the urinary output is. Urine itself contains a numer of nutrients that bacteria can make good use of, and thus if you have urine laying around that region (or anywhere else on your body) you're going to have bacteria that are proliferating to a greater extent than normal.

In other words, the armpit, despite its potential for being odorous, can't compare with the other two when we're discussing "dirty."

Quote:
Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
Whatever they think now doesn't really matter. They should be able to decide for themselves when they're older. Not their parents. What if they *wanted* to keep their foreskin?
Well, if they wanted to keep their foreskin then they're out of luck. Your line of reasoning is understandable, but when we start getting into "what if this person wanted that" theorizing then we can easily run into trouble.

For example, for every child who was dragged, kicking and screaming, to piano lessons and then grew up as a competent pianist (whether as a profession or not), you can likely find a child who rejected piano lessons and had their parents comply, only to - as an adult - lament the fact that their parents did not force them to go through piano practice, because now they can't play and they either don't have the time or the learning ability to learn piano.

How does something like that apply to circumcision? Easy - what if the child would have wanted to be circumcised? They can still go through with the operation, of course, but now they'll have to go through the pain and trauma of having a circumcision performed, in addition to actively feeling that something was lost (that is, they knew what it felt like before the circumcision, and now it feels numb by comparison). Someone circumcised at birth would not have those issues.

Overall, it's not a big deal. Your phallus is still quite functional whether you've been circumcised or not, and I don't think there are any people who lament the loss of their foreskin.
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Old 2009-05-27, 14:53   Link #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dilla View Post
They talk of some deaths pre-1950s, the death dealing the deaths from the same African tribes that do the female cutting(that is mutilation), and 30 reported deaths, five of which wasn't becuase of the circumcision itself, out of ten of millions of recorded ones.
Apparently you didn't read it through -

Quote:
Originally Posted by www.cirp.org
Robert Baker estimated 229 deaths per year from circumcision in the United States.
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Old 2009-05-27, 15:05   Link #80
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Originally Posted by VVayfarer View Post
Apparently you didn't read it through -
Your right, I didn't. Even so, that's still much lower than people being struck by lightning in the US. ANd some of those may not have directly been from the circumcision itself, but by something that could have been easily avoided.

Look, if you believe that circumcision at birth is wrong, that's fine, opinions are cool. But, don't condemn parents and those babies that have been circumcised and suggest that we've been mutilated or violated. It's simply not true. And deludes the term 'mutilation'.
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