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Old 2011-02-24, 20:39   Link #3201
KLGChaos
The Shermain
 
 
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Originally Posted by Last Carpet View Post
THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT!!!

I mean to say this is more up Zenkichi's alley than Medaka's. He made friends with Munakata, a natural born serial killer who Medaka couldn't approach because of his Abnormality. Shiranui, the manipulative girl who hates Medaka, is his best friend. And he reformed Mukae, the deranged girl who's desperate for attention and close contact, who Medaka can't approach due to her Minus.

If anything it shows Zenkichi is more capable to deal with and potentially reform a Minus than Medaka could ever be. It would seem, if he can ever get over his fear of him, that Zenkichi has the best chance of reforming Kumagawa.

I can't help but wonder what the connection between Misogi, Zenkichi, and Najimi is.
Yeah, I think it's because Zenkichi tries to understand them (which is why Parasite Seeing is perfect for him). Medaka, if at first she doesn't succeed, tends to become too forceful, which in my experience, tends to have the opposite effect. Plus, she tries to help people and make them her friend without really trying to understand the reasons why the are the way they are. Zenkichi tries to get to the root of the problem and help them help themselves-- Medaka tries to overwrite the problem instead, which doesn't always work. In many ways, Zen is better at making everyone happy than she is because he goes out of his way to find out what they really need, and not what he thinks they need like Medaka tends to do.

Though I noticed after Zen helped Mukae, the following chapters seemed to focus more on Medaka and how she held Mukae's hand and not Zenkichi. Personally, he's the one responsible. Medaka just caught the aftereffects and got the credit for it. :/
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Old 2011-02-25, 05:53   Link #3202
Last Carpet
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Originally Posted by KLGChaos View Post
Though I noticed after Zen helped Mukae, the following chapters seemed to focus more on Medaka and how she held Mukae's hand and not Zenkichi. Personally, he's the one responsible. Medaka just caught the aftereffects and got the credit for it. :/
She didn't really get credit. Notice how she touched her hand after her Minus was weakened. Unlike Zenkichi who touched her hand while her Minus was still at full strength.

She only stepped in when it was safe for her, while Zenkichi took it all at full force. Even if Medaka came in, this was entirely his moment.
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Old 2011-02-25, 06:10   Link #3203
KLGChaos
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Originally Posted by Last Carpet View Post
She didn't really get credit. Notice how she touched her hand after her Minus was weakened. Unlike Zenkichi who touched her hand while her Minus was still at full strength.

She only stepped in when it was safe for her, while Zenkichi took it all at full force. Even if Medaka came in, this was entirely his moment.
Oh, I know it was all him. I was just going by the way the former Pres was all starry-eyed about how Medaka touched Emukae's hand and praised her for understanding a minus, but didn't seem to even factor Zen into the equation. Though I loved Shiranui's face in the panel after that... She had a look like "You're wrong".
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Old 2011-02-25, 15:53   Link #3204
Iron21
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Whoa!!! didn't expect that! We need translations now!!!

Also, we can put the Ajimu being Zen past GF now

Spoiler for 88:


Spoiler for The Pic:
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Old 2011-02-25, 16:19   Link #3205
Nvis
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So Shiranui won't be in the last battle?
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Old 2011-02-25, 16:21   Link #3206
Iron21
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So Shiranui won't be in the last battle?


Spoiler for ...:
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Old 2011-02-25, 16:30   Link #3207
KLGChaos
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Old 2011-02-25, 16:44   Link #3208
Iron21
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Spoiler for 88:
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Old 2011-02-25, 16:52   Link #3209
LeaD36
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funny to see how ppl buried this manga @ 20-30 chapters
now we're close to 90 and the author set up a couple of unanswered questions - mainly being Shiranui and Ajimu - to take the story even further rofl.
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Old 2011-02-25, 17:09   Link #3210
Sol Falling
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Ahaha, I totally called the Najimi is Kumagawa's girlfriend thing. Was sceptical of the Zen hypothesis from the start. Nice, I'm looking forward to seeing this scanlated.
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Old 2011-02-25, 17:15   Link #3211
Soji
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Spoiler for 88:
Spoiler for Spoiler:

Last edited by Soji; 2011-02-25 at 17:38.
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Old 2011-02-25, 18:33   Link #3212
AlphaDragoon
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Spoiler for 88:
You do remember who we're talking about, right?

Spoiler for 88:
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Old 2011-02-25, 19:02   Link #3213
Kurosu
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Spoiler for MedakaBox Kumagawa:
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Old 2011-02-25, 19:16   Link #3214
Last Carpet
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Originally Posted by AlphaDragoon View Post
You do remember who we're talking about, right?

Spoiler for 88:
Yeah, just like she did in Middle School.

Therein lies the problem. She tried to help him but she couldn't, she tried to reform him but she didn't. In the end she attacked him in a fit of rage. Which left her emotionally scarred after she calmed down and realized that she didn't actually do anything positive for him. She may have forgotten it for a while, but her goal was to reform Misogi and make him happy, not to defeat him.

And besides, she said it herself that if strength was all it took to beat Misogi than she'd have beaten him back in Middle School. He's even worse now than he was in Middle School, and now he has his original Minus back. Even now that Medaka's Abnormality has been fully explored, we see a specific problem.

She can't turn off her power, she can't stop herself from taking on, improving and mastering a new ability when she experiences it. Either she wins the fight and absorbs and enhances Misogi's Minus, or she loses the fight and his new Student Council takes over.

The outcome of this match is pretty much Lose/Lose.
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Old 2011-02-25, 21:21   Link #3215
Asuras
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I have a feeling Kuudou's newfound abilities will have a price. Shiranui isn't that cool. >.>
I hope to god he wins nonetheless.
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Old 2011-02-25, 21:51   Link #3216
Rejuvenation
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Last Carpet View Post
Yeah, just like she did in Middle School.

Therein lies the problem. She tried to help him but she couldn't, she tried to reform him but she didn't. In the end she attacked him in a fit of rage. Which left her emotionally scarred after she calmed down and realized that she didn't actually do anything positive for him. She may have forgotten it for a while, but her goal was to reform Misogi and make him happy, not to defeat him.

And besides, she said it herself that if strength was all it took to beat Misogi than she'd have beaten him back in Middle School. He's even worse now than he was in Middle School, and now he has his original Minus back. Even now that Medaka's Abnormality has been fully explored, we see a specific problem.

She can't turn off her power, she can't stop herself from taking on, improving and mastering a new ability when she experiences it. Either she wins the fight and absorbs and enhances Misogi's Minus, or she loses the fight and his new Student Council takes over.

The outcome of this match is pretty much Lose/Lose.
The thing you overlook is that unlike Mr. "Unchangeable," Medaka actually progresses in her character and abilities. She learns and grows throughout the story.

Medaka didn't know how to turn on her reflexes but she learned how to after facing Takachiho. She didn't know anything about the true power of her abnormality and how to control Perses mode but after facing the 13 Party she did.

Medaka's biggest task has not been mastering other peoples' personalities and their abilities but mastering herself as a person and the weight of her own abilities. In order to face a minus she will either learn how to turn her ability off and on like everyone else or somehow overcome the negatives that come with a minus so she doesn't experience the side effects. If she can handle "that thing inside of her" she should be able to eventually find a way to deal with Minus abilities. Besides, Medaka has been watching her friends face off against the Minus 13 for almost a month now. Considering a lot of her abnormality also kicks in just based off of her seeing something, its hard to buy that she won't come up with any kind of counters. Hinokage even told her to watch him closely and see how to deal with a minus. On top of that, during that sequence of chapters everybody on the student council just talked about how they need to "Understand the Minus 13". Its not like Medaka is just going to ignore that especially after the whole thing with Emukae.

Also reforming Kumagawa is Medaka's job. That has been made clear throughout this arc with the conversations and exchanges between the characters. Zenkichi, unlike Medaka, makes it clear he "hates" Kumagawa and if he had his way wouldn't bother to try to reform him. Zenkichi also didn't manage to notice the similarities between Shiranui, his "best friend" and Kumagawa but Medaka did. Despite Medaka bringing it up, Zenkichi acted clueless.

Zenkichi can't reform Kumagawa because he isn't willing to put his personal feelings aside to do so. Medaka is willing to though and its shown throughout this entire arc how hard it is for her to try to come to grips with that. The struggle for Medaka and her desire to reform and make Kumagawa happy is there. Its not even existent for Zenkichi because he isn't even bothering to try. For Zenkichi, Kumagawa is just that jerk who screws with his friends' heads and bodies, hits on his mom, and the guy who emotionally scarred Medaka in middle school.
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Old 2011-02-25, 22:20   Link #3217
KLGChaos
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Well, Zenkichi does have a point. If a man murdered several people, in most judicial systems he doesn't get "reformed"... He pays for his actions with a life sentence or death sentence. And I don't think I could ever feel pity or forgive someone like Timothy McVeigh, who killed a bunch of innocent people, no matter how sorry he felt about it. Does it make me a bad person? I think it makes me normal. Then again, this is a manga and in mangas, a man can slaughter hundreds and if he apologizes for what he's done, he's welcomed with open arms to the good guys side and his past crimes tend to be swept under the rug. I know the heel-face turn is a staple of stories, but I've never liked how most just forget about their deeds in the process.

I personally don't want to see Kumagawa reformed. I'd much rather see a villain go down as a villain. There are way too many wishy-washy ones out there these days who redeem themselves at the last second. I blame Star Wars. Lol.
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Old 2011-02-25, 22:27   Link #3218
Last Carpet
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Originally Posted by Rejuvenation View Post
Spoiler for Raw 88:




The thing you overlook is that unlike Mr. "Unchangeable," Medaka actually progresses in her character and abilities. She learns and grows throughout the story.

Medaka didn't know how to turn on her reflexes but she learned how to after facing Takachiho. She didn't know anything about the true power of her abnormality and how to control Perses mode but after facing the 13 Party she did.

Medaka's biggest task has not been mastering other peoples' personalities and their abilities but mastering herself as a person and the weight of her own abilities. In order to face a minus she will either learn how to turn her ability off and on like everyone else or somehow overcome the negatives that come with a minus so she doesn't experience the side effects. If she can handle "that thing inside of her" she should be able to eventually find a way to deal with Minus abilities. Besides, Medaka has been watching her friends face off against the Minus 13 for almost a month now. Considering a lot of her abnormality also kicks in just based off of her seeing something, its hard to buy that she won't come up with any kind of counters. Hinokage even told her to watch him closely and see how to deal with a minus. On top of that, during that sequence of chapters everybody on the student council just talked about how they need to "Understand the Minus 13". Its not like Medaka is just going to ignore that especially after the whole thing with Emukae.

Also reforming Kumagawa is Medaka's job. That has been made clear throughout this arc with the conversations and exchanges between the characters. Zenkichi, unlike Medaka, makes it clear he "hates" Kumagawa and if he had his way wouldn't bother to try to reform him. Zenkichi also didn't manage to notice the similarities between Shiranui, his "best friend" and Kumagawa but Medaka did. Despite Medaka bringing it up, Zenkichi acted clueless.

Zenkichi can't reform Kumagawa because he isn't willing to put his personal feelings aside to do so. Medaka is willing to though and its shown throughout this entire arc how hard it is for her to try to come to grips with that. The struggle for Medaka and her desire to reform and make Kumagawa happy is there. Its not even existent for Zenkichi because he isn't even bothering to try. For Zenkichi, Kumagawa is just that jerk who screws with his friends' heads and bodies, hits on his mom, and the guy who emotionally scarred Medaka in middle school.
Hmm..........yeah OK, you make some good points.

If anything, I'm more interested in what'll happen when the fight's over rather than the fight itself. Medaka will win, she always wins, even her losses are victories in themselves. And Misogi will lose, he's a loser who has always lost to everyone in everything. We already know that.

How the fight plays out may be interesting. Seeing just how Medaka will beat Misogi, if she'll somehow avoid absorbing his Minus. We may get a clearer look back into their Middle School days and find out about Najimi. And hopefully we'll discover Zenkichi's connection to this.

But like I said, I'm more interested in what'll happen after the fight is over. Something tells me this whole Student Council battle has just been a ploy by Misogi in order to stall for enough time for the other Minuses to transfer in.

And I'm wondering how the outcome of the fight will affect Zenkichi. He pledged himself to protect Medaka from anyone like Kumagawa. If Medaka beats Misogi on her own, she'll have taken Zenkichi's purpose from him. He'll probably still follow her around like before, but only out of blind devotion instead of purpose. Personally, I'd like to see just what would happen to Medaka if Zenkichi decided that she didn't need him anymore and left her side.
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Old 2011-02-25, 22:34   Link #3219
KLGChaos
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Hmm..........yeah OK, you make some good points.

If anything, I'm more interested in what'll happen when the fight's over rather than the fight itself. Medaka will win, she always wins, even her losses are victories in themselves. And Misogi will lose, he's a loser who has always lost to everyone in everything. We already know that.

How the fight plays out may be interesting. Seeing just how Medaka will beat Misogi, if she'll somehow avoid absorbing his Minus. We may get a clearer look back into their Middle School days and find out about Najimi. And hopefully we'll discover Zenkichi's connection to this.

But like I said, I'm more interested in what'll happen after the fight is over. Something tells me this whole Student Council battle has just been a ploy by Misogi in order to stall for enough time for the other Minuses to transfer in.

And I'm wondering how the outcome of the fight will affect Zenkichi. He pledged himself to protect Medaka from anyone like Kumagawa. If Medaka beats Misogi on her own, she'll have taken Zenkichi's purpose from him. He'll probably still follow her around like before, but only out of blind devotion instead of purpose. Personally, I'd like to see just what would happen to Medaka if Zenkichi decided that she didn't need him anymore and left her side.
That would be an interesting scenario and seeing a Zenkichi on his own, not following Medaka around would definitely be a step towards developing his character more. However, given his "unchangeable" nature and his obsession with Medaka, I highly doubt it would happen. It would make for good story, especially seeing how Medaka would handle things without Zenkichi being her support, and Nishio has surprised me before, so I wouldn't completely rule it out. It'll just be very unlikely.
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Old 2011-02-26, 04:20   Link #3220
Doc Astaroth
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What the...

Spoiler for Chapter 88:
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