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Old 2011-10-05, 20:04   Link #4321
Last Carpet
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Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
It depends what kind of things she does. If she does truly villainous things, then yes, she'd be going against what she was trying to do. If she simply pretends to have gone bad, then I don't see the problem. Say, in 115, when she hit Zen, it was said her eyes where the type she makes when checking a solved problem. It sound me like plotting.

For all we know, she may be aware of Najimi's plans. For all we know, right now, they're currently plotting against each other and Zen is in the middle of that.
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Originally Posted by Eudial View Post
I'm actually glad they're refocusing on Zenkichi now. I was getting bored with the previous arc.
Same here, although I don't like where this arc is headed right now. I really feel like he should be doing this for himself not so he can cling to Medaka.

And may I add, I love your screenname
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Old 2011-10-05, 20:17   Link #4322
Used Can
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Originally Posted by Last Carpet View Post
If she's actually trying to be the antagonist to his main character, then she would be a major obstacle or genuine threat to Zen, his cause, or his goals.

But if she's only pretending that she's against him in order to make him feel better about himself, then where's the purpose here? Zen seems to honestly believe that joining the Flask Plan is his only shot at still keeping up with Medaka. If she's not taking him or his goal seriously, then it'll only serve to push Zenkichi even further away.
By pretending, I didn't mean her not fighting him seriously. She could "play" the role of Zen's antagonist and beat his ass until he gets tired. By not being an actual villain I mean her not going out of her way to harm other people.

Right now, Zen's immediate goal is to beat Medaka. So, as long as she keeps on beating him, she'll prove to be an obstacle. Furthermore, she can keep taunting, berating and treating him like shit to play her part of a villain.

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Originally Posted by Last Carpet View Post
I say "so-called" because it's like no friendship I've seen.
Do friends force you into situations without getting your input?
Do friends ignore your feelings and opinions?
Zenkichi seems to have been a much better friend than Medaka really deserves.
Well, to be honest, I've always wondered about Zen's fascination with Medaka. Back when they were kids, they seemed to be friends and nothing more. Then in middle school we know they weren't particularly close. They didn't become close again until high-school, though Zen's interest in Medaka seems to have started after the Kumagawa incident.

This makes me wonder, what role does his apparent relationship with Najimi play here. Zen doesn't remember her, but Najimi seems to have some obsession with him, even if she has also displayed interest in Kumagawa. And he refers to her as Zen's girlfriend.

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Originally Posted by Last Carpet View Post
What I'm wondering is, can she honestly lose?
She always wins, so I'm wondering if she could throw a fight even if she tried.
And if she can't even lose a match that she's trying to lose, can someone beat her no holds barred?
Well, if she cannot lose, then I guess the Flask Plan can be deemed a failure, no?
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Old 2011-10-05, 20:34   Link #4323
Johnny
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Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
Well, to be honest, I've always wondered about Zen's fascination with Medaka. Back when they were kids, they seemed to be friends and nothing more. Then in middle school we know they weren't particularly close. They didn't become close again until high-school, though Zen's interest in Medaka seems to have started after the Kumagawa incident.
Huh, from the start of the manga his interest has always been Medaka and nothing else. Also no matter what she did or said he never swayed, so why now? Is he becoming some kind of devil's advocate so to speak for her sake or vice versa...?
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Old 2011-10-05, 20:46   Link #4324
Used Can
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Yes, but the manga takes place in high-school - in which, as I've already stated, they became close again and Zen had already developed his fascination on Medaka.
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Old 2011-10-05, 22:54   Link #4325
Rejuvenation
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After reading it translated fully no wonder she hit him on the head like that. He seriously tried to say Kumagawa must have sabotaged him and that the whole thing was rigged rather than just not being able to solve it on his own. Even I'm disappointed after hearing that.

Moving on, great end to a great arc and the following chapters are keeping up the pace. Bravo Nisio bravo.
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Old 2011-10-06, 00:40   Link #4326
Haesslich
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Given 114 and Akune's comment on how well-suited Medaka was in the antagonist role during the MedaTrial... it puts Ajimu's offer in a different light, along with chapter 117's ending.
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Old 2011-10-06, 02:36   Link #4327
summers
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Originally Posted by Rejuvenation View Post
After reading it translated fully no wonder she hit him on the head like that. He seriously tried to say Kumagawa must have sabotaged him and that the whole thing was rigged rather than just not being able to solve it on his own. Even I'm disappointed after hearing that.

Moving on, great end to a great arc and the following chapters are keeping up the pace. Bravo Nisio bravo.
Same here, Im rethinking a lot of what I said before. I understand him wanting to try till the end, and thinking Kumagawa sabotaged him is a possibility since his a minus, but since he was upset it wasn't true. Still, I would be upset too since like said before, Zen had no chance of beating those trails, and even if the test is team based, how would he contribute to any of those tests? Not once did anybody say "if we had Zen we could...".

I know many hate medaka, but I feel sorry for her, she is really is bad with friends. Her response sucked. Punching him, and being disappointed doesn't help him, or herself.

Spoiler for spoil:
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Old 2011-10-06, 04:03   Link #4328
Westlo
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Originally Posted by summers View Post
Also does anyone really think Zen can do use Najima
Ajimu is going to play him for a fool when this arc is all said and done. Hopefully based Kumagawa can save the day.
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Old 2011-10-06, 04:09   Link #4329
Soji
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I admit I was disappointed that Zen has tried to blame Kumagawa ... but Zen reaction is completely normal as was upset like that.
Plus is not tlike that Kumagawa did not give reasons to think so, but with what we know about past Kumagawa Zen thinking like this is normal for this time when it's upset.
however ,I'am sure Zen not think what he just said is just something you say in a moment of anger, but you do not really think.
What I really dont like and I can not understand is the Medaka reaction is like if she literally has thrown 13 years of their live out the window .I admit Zen was wrong at the moment, but her reaction is the most wrong .
I meant instead of solving the problem she do that .
seems like that she compare Zen to something less valuble than trash.
Anyway I find it interesting Naze words is like she suggest that the issue would emerge sooner or later (Adan you were right here XD)
Spoiler for spoiler:

Westlo@I do not think this will happen Zen seems to be fairly on guard around Najim.
So I doubt will like that (Play like a fool like you said.)
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Old 2011-10-06, 04:40   Link #4330
Used Can
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Whilst Zen's reaction was definitely not correct, I think it's completely understandable. He's bent on not relying on his Parasite Eyes in order to prove his motto of hard work, and thus his frustration when he's simply unable to solve the puzzle. It's a matter of pride to him, and Medaka telling him to give up didn't help. Zen shouldn't have blamed Kumagawa, but give his frustration and his existing dislike for a guy who's an unrepentant murderer, I think that's yet another thing in which it is rather easy to empathise with him.

Medaka's reaction was complete uncalled for, though. It simply shows she has simply no empathy for Zen. Furthermore, the saddest part is that they all had forgotten about him. If that guy hadn't mentioned him, they all probably would have done something else. So, not only Medaka had forgot about him but then proceeded to hit and berate him after he bitched a bit. What's funny is that she had dealt with behaviour like this from other people and had no problems, but now that Zen loses it a bit once, she treats him like shit. I can understand her expecting something else from him, but then once again goes to show she probably then simply understand Zen - which is understandable since she's perfect and he isn't.
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Old 2011-10-06, 05:18   Link #4331
Kusa-San
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Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
Whilst Zen's reaction was definitely not correct, I think it's completely understandable. He's bent on not relying on his Parasite Eyes in order to prove his motto of hard work, and thus his frustration when he's simply unable to solve the puzzle. It's a matter of pride to him, and Medaka telling him to give up didn't help. Zen shouldn't have blamed Kumagawa, but give his frustration and his existing dislike for a guy who's an unrepentant murderer, I think that's yet another thing in which it is rather easy to empathise with him.

Medaka's reaction was complete uncalled for, though. It simply shows she has simply no empathy for Zen. Furthermore, the saddest part is that they all had forgotten about him. If that guy hadn't mentioned him, they all probably would have done something else. So, not only Medaka had forgot about him but then proceeded to hit and berate him after he bitched a bit. What's funny is that she had dealt with behaviour like this from other people and had no problems, but now that Zen loses it a bit once, she treats him like shit. I can understand her expecting something else from him, but then once again goes to show she probably then simply understand Zen - which is understandable since she's perfect and he isn't.
That's why I think Medaka don't really care about people feeling. She's just a godess or something like that. I don't think she's areally different from Ajimu. I'm sure if Zen use his parasite eyes, he will see mostly the same thing than with Ajimu.

And when Ajimu is saying than Zen should become the main character and Medaka the antagonist, I think Nisio is really serious about that. For severals chapters, Medaka really looks like an antagonist.
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Old 2011-10-06, 05:27   Link #4332
Culaio
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Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
I think she did that in order to take the role of the antagonist and allow Zen to become the MC.
Even if it is true I still think that it's weird because before she accepted him as he is, but now it's like she is saying that he is NOT good enough for her anymore so she decided to change him to her liking , also if she predicted that he will join the "plan" to become MC then that would make her even worse since she would be as manipulative person as Najimi Ajimu.

ps.sorry for bad english
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Old 2011-10-06, 05:30   Link #4333
Kusa-San
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Originally Posted by Culaio View Post
Even if it is true I still think that it's weird because before she accepted him as he is, but now it's like she is saying that he is NOT good enough for her anymore so she decided to change him to her liking , also if she predicted that he will join the "plan" to become MC then that would make her even worse since she would be as manipulative person as Najimi Ajimu.

ps.sorry for bad english
Medaka is not really human. She's something like a godess. She doesn't have the same view on the world that normal people. She doesn't undertand them.
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Old 2011-10-06, 05:40   Link #4334
Last Carpet
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All this really is setting up for Medaka to be the antagonist.

And it looks like she can lose if she's a direct obstacle or isn't in the right. Medaka's bond with Zenkichi is changing, and hopefully breaking.

The only way I see to fix this is if Medaka realized that she was wrong and apologized. But she doesn't care about Zenkichi, I don't think she even realizes that she doesn't care anymore, if she ever cared.

Zen's allies are here to help him, what I hope they do is help him figure out that he doesn't need Medaka, that he never did.

What really surprises me is Maguro, he's choosing to help Zenkichi instead of Medaka?
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Old 2011-10-06, 05:44   Link #4335
Soji
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You know what I would love to see happen?
Become as strong as them (Najim and medaka) mature as a person but at the same time not lose his gift of being able to make friends with everyone and understand everyone.
Another thing is that I would love for Najimi to be reformed by Zen beacuse they spending time together.
Imagine the irony if the current plan Najimi revolt against her because she it becomes more and more human (in character) because of Zen XD
Mark my words Zen will end up reduce their god like complex
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Old 2011-10-06, 06:26   Link #4336
Culaio
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Originally Posted by Soji View Post
You know what I would love to see happen?
Become as strong as them (Najim and medaka) mature as a person but at the same time not lose his gift of being able to make friends with everyone and understand everyone.
Another thing is that I would love for Najimi to be reformed by Zen beacuse they spending time together.
Imagine the irony if the current plan Najimi revolt against her because she it becomes more and more human (in character) because of Zen XD
Mark my words Zen will end up reduce their god like complex
I hope you are right since it would be "Crowning Moment Of Awesome" , on the other hand if that doesn't happen I will regret reading this manga
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Old 2011-10-06, 06:36   Link #4337
Tenchi Hou Take
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I get the feeling Zenkichi may gain one of two abilities if he acquires a new one. Either "The Begining" to match Medaka's "The End" or a physical embodiment of the power of friendship the greatest weapon of all Shounen main characters.

The more interesting ability would obviously be the latter. Anyway with Zenkichi's new found status of anti-hero being confirmed, there will obviously be a defining difference between both of their view points. What do you guys expect that defining difference to be. I think the most obvious would the difference that has always separated them from the begining which is that Zenkichi accepts people for who they are and either chooses to makes friends with them or not. Medaka always by nature tries to change people and make them better by her estimations regardless of if they want to change or not.

Zenkichi will on the other hand helps if he feels they are asking for it and leave them be if they're not. The catch is Zenkichi accepts completely to an extreme degree, to the point where if said person were to completely screw him over he wouldn't care as he had already accepted that part of them. Hence why he is the only person possible to make friends with Shiranui.
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Old 2011-10-06, 07:22   Link #4338
urca
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Spoiler for my thoughts after reading your thoughts on 117(lol @ the title):
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Old 2011-10-06, 07:33   Link #4339
Tenchi Hou Take
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Originally Posted by Westlo View Post
Ajimu is going to play him for a fool when this arc is all said and done. Hopefully based Kumagawa can save the day.
That's not even really a feat, I mean the guy told her his plans to screw her over before they even made the deal. Anyone with half a brain would have a good chance at figuring out how to trick someone else when said person has already stated their plans.

It would be much more impressive if Zenkichi actually managed pull his plan off while essentially giving himself a handicap to both Medaka and Aijimu.

He essentially just stated this is what I plan to do come at me bro's.
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Old 2011-10-06, 07:46   Link #4340
Culaio
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Spoiler for my thoughts after reading your thoughts on 117(lol @ the title):
why ? I think his actions are "normal", nobody wants to be side character, Only person I am disappointed in is medaka, she said that she doesn't have friends and completely forgotten about zenkichi.
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