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Old 2011-10-18, 22:21   Link #4761
evil|plushie
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question: Does medaka care?
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Old 2011-10-19, 02:25   Link #4762
Used Can
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
The point I was making actually is that almost none of the people Medaka fights actually "reform"*snip*
Most have actually reformed, and even the ones she ended up beating the shit out from, haven't remained antagonistic. I'll agree a good amount of the people that has fought Medaka remain rivals, but none of them are antagonistic. The example you gave with Kumagawa is actually perfect. However, even the biggest baddies ended up reformed. Miyakonojou hasn't kept up with the FP after he apologised. Unzen hasn't kept forcing his justice. You may be right about Kuma since he can be unpredictable, but he doesn't seem to have any plans of screwing with Medaka any more.

Also, I never meant Medaka bends other people to her will as if they become her dogs, but that after they're defeated they end up with the purpose "beat Kurokami Medaka". That's what I meant by her becoming central to them.

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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
I wasn't talking about the Medatrial in general *snip*
That's nothing that hadn't happened before, though. Back in during the challenges arc, when Zen told Shiranui he loved her she hit him. Or when Maguro hugged her and Naze and they hit him. Or the times Medaka tried to wear an apron like Naze or bloomers and everyone thought it didn't suit her. So, her interaction with Kumagawa isn't really anything new.

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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Medaka doesn't have any casual relationships simply because she isn't casual.*snip*
But that's precisely the problem here. Normal friendships on equal grounds, which is what you say Medaka wants, are casual. As for Zen and Shiranui it's not that they don't care what the other does. Notice Zen got seriously worried when he thought Shiranui was forced into Kumagawa's group, but after she told him she did it out of her own will he was okay with that, because that's a relationship based on trust, and I don't think you cannot trust other person if you don't understand them and you cannot understand other people if you don't communicate - which was exactly what Zen did with Shiranui.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Is Medaka jealous of Shiranui? Hey, she might very well be! But who is the person responsible for the difference between how Zenkichi treats Medaka and Shiranui?
Zen and Medaka for the type of relationship they've built, of course.

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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
And the point is that Medaka's life objective ultimately comes from a very simple and natural human desire--not to be alone. Medaka is not trying to force her ideals on anyone or anything, she's just looking for people to relate to her on a basic human level.
Actually, not wanting to be alone is something that came later. Remember when Zen suggested Medaka's purpose was to make people happy she was broken, because Kuma had told her there was no purpose to living. And even before that Medaka had become ostracised by those old people after showing her abilities. Now, she's no longer ostracised by people but praised for her heroic actions.

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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
The problem is not the question Kikaijima asked. It is Medaka's answer that we are interpreting, and that means that it is what Medaka meant that we should care about*snip*
Now Zenkichi challenged her... When did that happen? Zen went there, told her she was wrong and why he thought so. Then he turned his back and Medaka took that as a challenge, to which Zen's reaction was she didn't take anything in of what he had just said. Then, after she wiped the floor with Zen and left, Kikaijima told her she had overdone things and that she should go back an apologise, reminding her Zenkichi is an important person to her. Notice that in Kikaijima's working there's no implication Zenkichi should receive any special treatment, but she clearly said that what Medaka had done wasn't correct and that she should apologise. Then Medaka replied there were no such thing as special people in this world, which if we're going to look it in terms of "giving people special favours" make no sense as a reply considering what Kakaijima had just told her, and it is right after Medaka said this and explained her new mode that Kikaijima thought Medaka doesn't understand other people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
You don't understand what "putting someone on a pedestal" means.*snip*
I think your definition is a bit extreme. Putting something on a pedestal means to have something elevated to a position of honour or reverence. Also, I never said Akune didn't learn he shouldn't look down on his own desires. However, that doesn't stop him from idealising Medaka. He didn't simply refer it as being honoured by being called by his name, he called it a privilege.

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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Kikaijima is a down to earth girl. She's not very flashy, but you'd be doing her a discredit if you said that she's also nothing more than a follower of Medaka.
I'm not trying to discredit her. In fact, in my previous post I actually gave her a lot of credit, since she's one of the few who's actually questioned Medaka. No, in fact, she even told her in ch118 that she was wrong in her actions. But that's all she did. She limited to say Medaka was wrong and kept following her even though her mind hadn't changed.

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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Medaka has never kept Zenkichi around for his "belief" or "protection" in/of her. *snip*
I don't disagree with the idea of Zen stopping worshipping Medaka. That's something I said I wanted him to do in the very first post ever since we started this discussion. However, here's the thing I keep repeating over and over again, why not simply talk things over? That's what person in real, functioning relationships do. No one needs to be taught lessons. In fact, failing to resort to actual communication and feeling that "you have to teach someone else a lesson," isn't that a form of arrogance?

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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
As I said, Zenkichi's main influence/help to Medaka has been his words.*snip*
That's wrong, though. Remember, the reason Zen fought Munakata was precisely because it was extremely dangerous for Medaka to absorb his minus. So, Zen took up the fight. It was the same against Medaka II. Whilst it was ultimately Zen's words and actions what changed her, he needed to be strong enough to stand up to her and be able to defend himself, otherwise, he'd never have been able to make his words reach her.

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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Actually, it was clear from the atmosphere to everyone that Zenkichi had leaped way off the right path from the beginning. Medaka's casual encouragement and advice not to take it too badly was already an expression of trust and reconciliation.
Pffft... What? Does this look like the kind of atmosphere you talk about? They were surprised he was still unable to finish the puzzle. That's it. There was nothing clear about his state of mind until Medaka tried to cheer him up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Where, exactly, have any of Medaka's enemies in this manga lost their "ego"? The only thing "meta" about this aspect of the series you bring up is that Medaka is simply so overpowered that her opponents generally give up directly getting back at her (at least for now).
I do think the story thus far proves me correct, though. None of these past enemies has shown up to have revenge or has shown hatred toward Medaka. In fact, by far, the vast majority have become friendly rivals. Hell, Unzen cooperated in the Treasure Hunt and Kumagawa is currently in the Student Council. And those were two of her most complicated enemies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Zenkichi did angst after having received Parasite Seeing. But that has nothing to do with refusing the aid of others. Simply not using the ability would be enough to "prove himself to himself" in that context.*snip*
It actually does. Zen's problems go back before the Treasure Hunt. It's painted clearly in his interview to Yojirou. This is why I keep saying he's trying to prove himself to himself. This has got little to do with the other girls. They were just the final straw.

Once again, I don't think he was right. He was clearly being illogical in thinking Parasite Eyes suddenly turned his lives hard work into nothing. But it particularly because of him acting like that that I think Medaka really had to talk to him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Medaka's recalculating eyes happened after she hit Zen.
No, lol. Look, she had those eyes BEFORE hitting Zen, during hitting Zen and after. Then, after she beat his life out of him she told Kakaijima she had been taunting him more than necessary. So... yeah...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
This is where you need to focus on the meta aspects that Nisio is playing with. Medaka is not simply any other genius that a person could avoid, she is the perfect one who can surpass absolutely anything.*split*
Those aren't meta aspects, though. Also, I disagree on the whole world revolving around Medaka. For example, a genius is only praised when he plays the role of a genius. Also a genius is not merely a genius just for having a high IQ. That's merely potential. A genius is considered one because of his actions. No matter how much raw potential a person may have, ultimately, all comes down to the actions they take. Even if you have a extremely high IQ, or high potential for sports or whatever, if you do nothing with them then you'll simply never receive the praise a genius receives. At worst, you'll be called wasted potential and that's it.

Also, remember, Medaka isn't praised merely for her abilities. Zen has already explained that much. Only beasts take Medaka's potential into consideration. People, on the other hand, worship her because of her personality. And so, when Medaka has decided to play the role of something that is pretty much a hero, she's quite likely to be worshipped. Especially when she plays the role of a hero that is highly talented and who's almost always right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Regarding "fixing", I request again that you re-examine your presumptions about this.*snip*
I disagree. Notice how Medaka is constantly talking about having people set on the right path. That's pretty much fixing. Also, the whole thing about trying to make people happy is again something unnecessary, especially if she wants to be treated normally. It'd be okay if she was acting normally and just giving some aid here and there like... say... Doctor Tenma in Monster. However, Medaka always end up making a display of her prowess which ultimately brings all that undesired worship.

Anyhow, I really feel we're going on circles. So, I think I'll leave the discussion here. I guess by now we've fully exposed our points of view, since currently we've basically kept on repeating them over and over. Thus, I think I'll simply wait and see how the plot unfolds to see who has the more accurate views on these matters. Anyhow, it was fun.
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Old 2011-10-19, 03:54   Link #4763
Kusa-San
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Takigashima View Post
Question: has Medaka realized herself that she has just made the one closest to her unhappy?
And that even if he does get stronger, but possibly loses. Does she seriously think he will be happy?
Medaka can't understand people feeling that's why she's dangerous and scary.
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Old 2011-10-19, 07:49   Link #4764
ziggi92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling
This is where you need to focus on the meta aspects that Nisio is playing with. Medaka is not simply any other genius that a person could avoid, she is the perfect one who can surpass absolutely anything. It's not Medaka who's making the world revolve around herself--in fact, she was born with the world revolving around her.
That means that Medaka will win the fight against Zenkichi since she is the perfect one so how can
Zenkichi become strong than the perfect one & can flask plan make something which better than perfect.
What interest about Zenkichi is the mystery surrounding him like
relationship with Ajimu in middle school how he cannot remember anything for that also Medaka why Zenkichi was not with Medaka in Middle school both time when she went mad first one was when Zenkichi was going to beat Akune and also when Medaka attacked Kumagawa when he killed the vice president how looks like Ajimu which means that he was
also part of that attack.
Then second mystery is his connection with flask plan
It cannot be coincidence that he was chosen as perfect for that plan since has been indirectly
part of it when he was with his mother in hospital where she was studying abnormal & Minus for flask plan so it can be that they were also researching on him.
Then there is third mystery what Zenkichi is, an abnormal,minus or not equal:
Quote:
Zenkichi is introduced as a Normal, a human lacking any special abillity. He is neither a genius nor does he appear to have any Abnormalities. After obtaining the Abnormality Parasite Seeing however, both Zenkichi and Ajimu state that he can no longer be categorized as a Normal, having now obtained an ability, even if it is not originally his own. Whether this means Zenkichi is now an Abnormal, Minus, or Not Equal, is still unknown.
taking from :
http://medakabox.wikia.com/wiki/Zenkichi_Hitoyoshi

Last edited by ziggi92; 2011-10-19 at 11:24.
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Old 2011-10-19, 10:30   Link #4765
Soji
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Agree with you ziggi92 about what you wrote.

Any way some spoiler ch 119 from baidu(or at least I think their are spoiler about the ch).
Spoiler for ch 119:

As usual I hope someone can give us some hit on what the spoiler is about.
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Old 2011-10-19, 12:40   Link #4766
runset
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Spoiler:
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Old 2011-10-19, 12:51   Link #4767
K. Shiruto
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Yep, I was right, he was referring to the role of main character, not Medaka.
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Old 2011-10-19, 13:29   Link #4768
Tenchi Hou Take
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But the antihero of what story, are there now several "manga's" in Medaka box universe or are "main characters simply people with "special" abilities that populate the Medaka box world.
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Old 2011-10-19, 13:36   Link #4769
NarutoUzo
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I believe it might be a ability Zen will have to achieve though I might be wrong. Zen being a Dark Hero would be pretty epic!!
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Old 2011-10-19, 13:41   Link #4770
Soji
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Originally Posted by NarutoUzo View Post
I believe it might be a ability Zen will have to achieve though I might be wrong. Zen being a Dark Hero would be pretty epic!!
I could be wrong of course but I think that Najimi wants Zen to archives something from all the types of mc (dark hero, hero etc.)
In order to become the most balanced of all mc
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Old 2011-10-19, 13:48   Link #4771
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Old 2011-10-19, 13:54   Link #4772
Tenchi Hou Take
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Old 2011-10-19, 14:00   Link #4773
Kusa-San
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Nah, Kuemagawa will just side with...himself. That's all
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Old 2011-10-19, 14:06   Link #4774
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Old 2011-10-19, 14:31   Link #4775
Soji
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Spoiler for spoiler:

Last edited by Soji; 2011-10-19 at 14:48.
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Old 2011-10-19, 14:56   Link #4776
Clarste
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Old 2011-10-19, 15:23   Link #4777
Yagami_Kazuma
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Dark hero, eh... not that there's anything wrong with that~
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Old 2011-10-19, 16:07   Link #4778
TheAlucid
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It's been stated in the manga before, Kumagawa is a liar.

You literally can't take anything he does at face value, speculating what he might do based off of what he says is a bit pointless in my opinion. Maybe he will support Zen, maybe he won't. Maybe he'll appear to support Zen and back stab him at the last moment, who knows? He really doesn't have much consistency as a character.

I'm still somewhat inclined to think Hanten has something to do with Zenkichi beyond just being a mentor of sorts, and this 'dark hero' archetype that's going to start Zenkichi's training looked a lot like Zenkichi if his hair had lost color and grew longer.

The problem is, that aside from some foreshadowing the abilities shown in the manga makes a lot of theories possible, if not reasonable.

Last edited by TheAlucid; 2011-10-19 at 16:21. Reason: Used past tense, not current for a verb
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Old 2011-10-19, 16:14   Link #4779
Used Can
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So, Zen likes To-Love-Ru Darkness?
Mah boooiiii....

Anyhow, I'm wondering about the context behind "Dark Hero"? Does it refer to anti-heroes or to uncomprehended heroes like Batman and Spiderman?
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Old 2011-10-19, 16:22   Link #4780
Soji
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So, Zen likes To-Love-Ru Darkness?
Mah boooiiii....

Anyhow, I'm wondering about the context behind "Dark Hero"? Does it refer to anti-heroes or to uncomprehended heroes like Batman and Spiderman?
I think like Batman and Spiderman hero like that.
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