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Old 2011-10-23, 11:28   Link #4921
Grey
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Right. It's totally a shounen hero thing. "I can fight and beat people up and be good friends with them after." Enemies become friends. And friends become enemies and then become friends again.

Nisio played this straight for a long time. But now Kikaijima is like, "Wait! That's really weird!"
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Old 2011-10-23, 11:44   Link #4922
Endscape
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Originally Posted by Rejuvenation View Post
Bingo. All over the freaking internet week in and week out his fans consistently have been throwing every character under the bus that didn't automatically jump on Lord Hitoyoshi's bandwagon. Never mind actually trashing them and saying how they are all just oh so horrible for not jumping into the skirmish he had and immediately pinned them as mindless Medaka followers. Sorry, but no, that was Zenkichi all the way up until the end of the treasure hunt. Kumagawa has once again shown he is on his own side and Kikaijima doesn't want to choose between Medaka and Zenkichi. She even ran after her saying how harsh she thought she was being.

The other thing that gets me is how they want Lord Hitoyoshi to knock those "Godly" characters Ajimu and Medaka down a peg completely ignoring the fact that he would have to become "Godly" himself in order to do it. What a load of hypocrisy. Oh, but once again its perfectly fine if he becomes a God now although a lot of them spent the entirety of the manga talking about how they hated Godly characters. Just as long as Lord Hitoyoshi puts those vile goddesses in their places and looks good while doing it.
THIS. THIS SO MUCH

Everywhere you go you see people bitching about Medaka as if she's the devil and treating Zen like a god and crying about how horrible Medaka is to Zen. There are problems with their relationship but it's on both sides, not just Medaka's. But no, of course the great Hitoyoshi Zenkichi can do no evil.

God, it's annoying.
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Old 2011-10-23, 11:53   Link #4923
sungreentakeo
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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
THIS. THIS SO MUCH

Everywhere you go you see people bitching about Medaka as if she's the devil and treating Zen like a god and crying about how horrible Medaka is to Zen. There are problems with their relationship but it's on both sides, not just Medaka's. But no, of course the great Hitoyoshi Zenkichi can do no evil.

God, it's annoying.
Why do you care? The biggest person trolling on Medaka right now is the actual mangaka. The deconstruction of the 'most perfect girl shounen hero' may very well be the whole point of the manga. Certainly, this has been a conflict that was hinted from the very first chapter of the manga. Medaka and Zenkichi were pulled into this story to create this situation.

I guess I just don't get into the characters as much as other people, so I find it strange that people would invest so much personally into a character which is essentially a parody of a stereotype. She's supposed to be wrong in this case, and she is supposed to be untouchable... And both of those things are supposed to make people feel like they want her to 'be taken down a peg or two' and root for the underdog...
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Old 2011-10-23, 11:57   Link #4924
Kusa-San
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Originally Posted by sungreentakeo View Post
Why do you care? The biggest person trolling on Medaka right now is the actual mangaka. The deconstruction of the 'most perfect girl shounen hero' may very well be the whole point of the manga. Certainly, this has been a conflict that was hinted from the very first chapter of the manga.

I guess I just don't get into the characters of manga as much as other people, but I find it strange that people would invest so much personally into a character which is essentially a parody of a stereotype. She's supposed to be wrong in this case, and she is supposed to be untouchable... And both of those things are supposed to make people feel like they want her to 'be taken down a peg or two' and root for the underdog...
Exactly and it's how I feel : Zen should beat Medaka and then Ajimu !
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Old 2011-10-23, 11:59   Link #4925
Endscape
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Originally Posted by sungreentakeo View Post
Why do you care? The biggest person trolling on Medaka right now is the actual mangaka. The deconstruction of the 'most perfect girl shounen hero' may very well be the whole point of the manga. Certainly, this has been a conflict that was hinted from the very first chapter of the manga.

I guess I just don't get into the characters of manga as much as other people, but I find it strange that people would invest so much personally into a character which is essentially a parody of a stereotype. She's supposed to be wrong in this case, and she is supposed to be untouchable... And both of those things are supposed to make people feel like they want her to 'be taken down a peg or two' and root for the underdog...
I was talking about all the Zen lovers out there, they're quite annoying, not to mention all the pointless Medaka hate out there. Certainly she has problems, some of her won design and some because of the attitude of others, but she's not nearly as horrible as what the Medaka haters are saying.

I care because I like Medaka's character, and pointless negativity and bashing are one of my pet peeves.
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Old 2011-10-23, 12:12   Link #4926
lickere
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Come on, let's calm down.

I'm not a Zen fan but i prefer him over medaka, But i don't want him to be God-like, I want him to beat Medaka, the question is: How?

I mean, Medaka would be ecstatic if someone Beat her so I don't see a clear change in her personality after fight Zen, and the reason I support Zen its because his reason are more human, he just want to be important for Medaka, at the End the if this continue the place of Zen won't change, he always would be the same, that's why I want him to suprise in a way or another Ajimu and Medaka, not beat them but at least make them really amazed by him.

Medaka lovers: take it easy, Nisio want to make Medaka less god-like, i think that the main theme in this serie.

Zenkichi lovers: you too take it easy, I don't want Zen change to be a superman, I just want him to troll everybody else.

in a note aside, Kumagawa is fucking amazing, I waiting his fight with munakata who is a great character too, how much better would be the series with protagonist like them... sigh
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Old 2011-10-23, 12:17   Link #4927
Kusa-San
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Originally Posted by lickere View Post
Come on, let's calm down.

I'm not a Zen fan but i prefer him over medaka, But i don't want him to be God-like, I want him to beat Medaka, the question is: How?

I mean, Medaka would be ecstatic if someone Beat her so I don't see a clear change in her personality after fight Zen, and the reason I support Zen its because his reason are more human, he just want to be important for Medaka, at the End the if this continue the place of Zen won't change, he always would be the same, that's why I want him to suprise in a way or another Ajimu and Medaka, not beat them but at least make them really amazed by him.

Medaka lovers: take it easy, Nisio want to make Medaka less god-like, i think that the main theme in this serie.

Zenkichi lovers: you too take it easy, I don't want Zen change to be a superman, I just want him to troll everybody else.

in a note aside, Kumagawa is fucking amazing, I waiting his fight with munakata who is a great character too, how much better would be the series with protagonist like them... sigh
No one want Zen to be godlike. At least Zen fan don't want him to be godlike. It's just those who hate him who think that's the case. The whole reason that Zen is my fav is because he is the most normal of all of them. And if I don't like Medaka is ecause she's a godess who is scary and don't value friendship.

Zen is the normal who will beat the godess but in the end, will still be a normal.
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Old 2011-10-23, 12:34   Link #4928
Tenchi Hou Take
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I love how people assume the current dislike of Medaka is purely and entirely because of Zen. For me that had like nothing to do with it, I just disliked how the author turned her into a boring Mary Sue that has been holding back almost every major arc in the manga. The problem is I originally liked Medaka quite a fair bit but my god almost every major fight with her is anti-climatic making much of the proceding arc kinda pointless and kills all of the accumulated hype.

Surely there was better way set up whatever Nisio plans for the endgame of the manga without damaging so many arcs. If she reverted back to how she was near the begining flask plan arc etc I'd start liking her again but at this point it seems impossible.
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Old 2011-10-23, 12:38   Link #4929
sungreentakeo
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Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take View Post
I love how people assume the current dislike of Medaka is purely and entirely because of Zen. For me that had like nothing to do with it, I just disliked how the author turned her into a boring Mary Sue that has been holding back almost every major arc in the manga. The problem is I originally liked Medaka quite a fair bit but my god almost every major fight with her is anti-climatic making much of the proceding arc kinda pointless and kills all of the accumulated hype.

Surely there was better way set up whatever Nisio plans for the endgame of the manga without damaging so many arcs. If she reverted back to how she was near the begining flask plan arc etc I'd start liking her again but at this point it seems impossible.
Lol, Ajimu is literally like god (a quadrillion abilities), and Ajimu (god) openly admits that Medaka would win in a direct confrontation. How exactly is Zenkichi going to do anything here? The poor guy, he's been given an impossible task.
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Old 2011-10-23, 12:43   Link #4930
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Personally I'm thinking why doesn't Medaka just copy parasite seeing? One of her main flaws is the inability to understand normal people, but the skill would artificially give her an understanding about how others think. If she had been willing to talk it out they may have come to that conclusion without their relationship degenerating into a battle, but instead she decides to smack Zen upside the head and beat him senseless.

I don't hate Medaka, but if you're saying she has not been guilty of horrible behavior in the last few chapters I think you're missing what the author is attempting to do.
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Old 2011-10-23, 12:48   Link #4931
Soji
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Originally Posted by yuzen003 View Post
Personally I'm thinking why doesn't Medaka just copy parasite seeing? One of her main flaws is the inability to understand normal people, but the skill would artificially give her an understanding about how others think. If she had been willing to talk it out they may have come to that conclusion without their relationship degenerating into a battle, but instead she decides to smack Zen upside the head and beat him senseless.

I don't hate Medaka, but if you're saying she has not been guilty of horrible behavior in the last few chapters I think you're missing what the author is attempting to do.
Good point.
If I remember correctly she at least saw once Zen using parasite Eyes ...so why the hell her the end not learn that skill like with hiden weampon di Munakata ?
Even with Munakata she dont fight directly and yet she learned the technique and the same is true with Naze.
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Old 2011-10-23, 12:55   Link #4932
sungreentakeo
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Originally Posted by Soji View Post
Good point.
If I remember correctly she at least saw once Zen using parasite Eyes ...so why the hell her the end not learn that skill like with hiden weampon di Munakata ?
Even with Munakata she dont fight directly and yet she learned the technique and the same is true with Naze.
I think she already has copied it... Well, basically I think she knows about it and the first time she would try it she would do it perfectly without practice.

I'm not quite sure it would change her any, since I don't think that learning bookmaker (the super weakening skill) and using it on herself made her understand the weak any better. She uses it as a battle skill. I guess she might use parasite seeing as battle skill, but I think any empathy effects would just bounce off her internal personality armor.
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Old 2011-10-23, 12:55   Link #4933
Last Carpet
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Originally Posted by Soji View Post
Good point.
If I remember correctly she at least saw once Zen using parasite Eyes ...so why the hell her the end not learn that skill like with hiden weampon di Munakata ?
Even with Munakata she dont fight directly and yet she learned the technique and the same is true with Naze.
Probably because she learns to use an Abnormality when she experiences it.

Kei's "Killer Instinct" is his Abnormality, but she didn't learn it because it wasn't actually used against her. (Thank goodness) She did however learn his Hidden Weapons technique by watching him use it against Zen.

To learn "Parasite Seeing, Zen would have to use it against her in a fight.

Which makes me wonder, what would Medaka see in people if she learned how to use Zenkichi's Abnormality?
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Old 2011-10-23, 12:59   Link #4934
sungreentakeo
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Probably because she learns to use an Abnormality when she experiences it.

Kei's "Killer Instinct" is his Abnormality, but she didn't learn it because it wasn't actually used against her. (Thank goodness) She did however learn his Hidden Weapons technique by watching him use it against Zen.

To learn "Parasite Seeing, Zen would have to use it against her in a fight.

Which makes me wonder, what would Medaka see in people if she learned how to use Zenkichi's Abnormality?
I think she would just see what other people see... Basically the definition of the skill. I think the empathy for Emukae that Zen had during his fight with her came from him, not the skill.. It's more like the skill allowed him to see what she could see, and then his own empathy took over from there.

Now that I think about it, she copied the mind reading skill. I think Naze said that might have been the reason why Zenkichi was able to overcome Medaka's brainwashing. I think that mind reading may be a little bit stronger than parasite seeing.. And well, being able to read people's minds didn't seem to make her more empathic.

Last edited by sungreentakeo; 2011-10-23 at 13:10.
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Old 2011-10-23, 13:11   Link #4935
Last Carpet
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Originally Posted by sungreentakeo View Post
I think she would just see what other people see... Basically the definition of the skill. I think the empathy for Emukae that Zen had during his fight with her came from him, not the skill.. It's more like the skill allowed him to see what she could see, and then his own empathy took over from there.

Now that I think about it, she copied the mind reading skill. I think Naze said that might have been the reason why Zenkichi was able to overcome her brainwashing. I think that mind reading may be a little bit stronger than parasite seeing.. And well, being able to read people's minds didn't seem to make her more empathic.
Makes sense.

Having Zen's Abnormality probably wouldn't do much to Medaka other than give her a battle advantage.

If she learned Parasite Seeing, it probably wouldn't register. Just because she could see what other people see and experience their point of view. Doesn't mean she would take it into account over her own point of view and react accordingly.
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Old 2011-10-23, 13:51   Link #4936
Tenchi Hou Take
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Originally Posted by sungreentakeo View Post
I think she would just see what other people see... Basically the definition of the skill. I think the empathy for Emukae that Zen had during his fight with her came from him, not the skill.. It's more like the skill allowed him to see what she could see, and then his own empathy took over from there.

Now that I think about it, she copied the mind reading skill. I think Naze said that might have been the reason why Zenkichi was able to overcome Medaka's brainwashing. I think that mind reading may be a little bit stronger than parasite seeing.. And well, being able to read people's minds didn't seem to make her more empathic.
Wait did she actually copy the mind reading skill? I don't remember that. Considering the most blaring weakness of that skill, is that the person feels of the pain of said person making battle pretty much impossible. And also Medaka typically doesn't actually "master" her abilities for the most part it simply entails her being able to switch them off and little else outside of bookmaker.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sungreentakeo View Post
Lol, Ajimu is literally like god (a quadrillion abilities), and Ajimu (god) openly admits that Medaka would win in a direct confrontation. How exactly is Zenkichi going to do anything here? The poor guy, he's been given an impossible task.
It's not really all that impossible hence the entire point of this arc. He is a main character and main characters have beaten other main characters before even when their darkside (which I'm not saying Zenkichi particularily is) e.g Sasuke did beat Naruto ofcourse he will most probably ultimately lose in the end to Naruto but that defeat did occur. There have also been instances where another main character has surpassed the "main" character, Yugi against Atem being a famous example and there's times when two main characters drew at the end.

Aijimu can't win for obvious reasons that have nothing to do with her abilities that she's perfectly aware of. She's the final villain and final villains NEVER win. Hence why regardless of how strong she is it's impossible.

Last edited by Tenchi Hou Take; 2011-10-23 at 14:03.
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Old 2011-10-23, 14:09   Link #4937
Grey
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Originally Posted by sungreentakeo View Post
She's supposed to be wrong in this case
Wait. You think Medaka is supposed to be in the wrong here? I'd say there's no right in the first place. Zenkichi isn't trying to do anything right, he just wants to be by Medaka no matter what. So he opposes her. And Medaka wants to help Zenkichi grow in a sociopathic shounen way. By fighting him.

Zenkichi is selfish and says he's willing to do whatever. Medaka is a mix of selfish and selfless and is being a crazy shounen hero. In a twisted way, they're getting what they both want.

When I think about it...I wonder if Medaka even thought of not fighting Zenkichi. I bet she didn't even think it's bad that he challenged her or bad that they fought. It's a shounen cliche: growth through fighting. Understanding through fighting.

It's like Kumagawa and Medaka's big duel. Medaka loved fighting with him. (What is she, Goku?!)
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Old 2011-10-23, 14:44   Link #4938
Tenchi Hou Take
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Wait. You think Medaka is supposed to be in the wrong here? I'd say there's no right in the first place. Zenkichi isn't trying to do anything right, he just wants to be by Medaka no matter what. So he opposes her. And Medaka wants to help Zenkichi grow in a sociopathic shounen way. By fighting him.

Zenkichi is selfish and says he's willing to do whatever. Medaka is a mix of selfish and selfless and is being a crazy shounen hero. In a twisted way, they're getting what they both want.

When I think about it...I wonder if Medaka even thought of not fighting Zenkichi. I bet she didn't even think it's bad that he challenged her or bad that they fought. It's a shounen cliche: growth through fighting. Understanding through fighting.

It's like Kumagawa and Medaka's big duel. Medaka loved fighting with him. (What is she, Goku?!)
I think your looking at this from the wrong angle here. Zenkicii joining Aijimu and Zenkichi believing Medaka as wrong are not the same thing. While there both doing this for "wrong" reasons here, this battle has brought about something that was always there, which was that Zenkichi's views and Medaka's views are fundamentally different. Zenkichi has always had problems with this crusade, he doesn't believe that what Medaka is doing there is quite right. This is something that is totally independent to him wanting to be with Medaka or Medaka wanting him to be an enemy.

It is also here were the lines can be drawn in regards to who is right and who is wrong, and the conclusion of the battle will most likely be closely inertwined with whose view point is "right" or whether there is even a "right" viewpoint in regards to the arguement.
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Old 2011-10-23, 14:59   Link #4939
zeando
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i think the whole point of ajimu in making medaka and zen battle is to make medaka learn and use parasite eyes(even if she could transfer that ability directly herself)

each ability showed till now had some sort of personality drawback, i think parasite eyes has 2 stages of alteration
1. total empathy, becoming the nicest person (by adapting to others view)
2. cinism, becoming overly manipulative
ajimu now is already at 2(she was at 1 in middle school), and i think her plan is to bring medake to her same mindset, that way she will no longer oppose her

in medaka case learning that ability will nullify zenkichi's goal
since the problem medaka had before meeting zen was not being able to enjoy anything since she could complete it with no effort or with no risk of failing
while the goal zenkichi gave her, apart from giving a meaning and use to her ability, was also something even her could enjoy doing and wasn't completed by simply activing an ability
i think when medaka will learn parasite eyes(and will perfect it) she'll stop enjoying even helping people as a goal, and will revert to the mindset before meeting zenkichi
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Old 2011-10-23, 15:00   Link #4940
Lummie
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I just regard this arc where:

A) Zen receives important character development (learning his lesson) and the power-up required to face Hanten in the end. Since he can't do it in the state he is now.
B) Kikaijima becomes an important factor that interferes with Ajimu's plans
C) Medaka fixes a bit her lack of communication regarding people's feelings
D) And the prelude to the real Ajimu Najimi arc where everyone learns to set their differences aside and unite to finally conclude who the real hindrance is, Anshin'nin.

Right now, if you look at this arc from this point of view, you'll honestly care less about who's right and who's wrong.
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